Why does everyone think that this is special for Manning and that it's the government out to get her? Any prisoner who tries to kill themselves is placed in solitary since it's the only way to make sure don't have access to anything they could kill themselves with. Complain about the prison system, not her specifically.
[QUOTE=plunger435;51317227]Why does everyone think that this is special for Manning and that it's the government out to get her? Any prisoner who tries to kill themselves is placed in solitary since it's the only way to make sure don't have access to anything they could kill themselves with. Complain about the prison system, not her specifically.[/QUOTE]
Because she's known and people sympathize with her based on her status as transgender, and because a lot of us don't really feel a "TRAITOR" frenzy take hold when thinking of her, and some are even supportive of what she did, based on what overall was leaked.
[QUOTE=GordonZombie;51317022]Manning did some stupid shit but for christ's sake, a 35 year sentence could be considered excessive for someone who hasn't committed a violent crime and from a certain perspective did not have malicious intent, especially when there violent sex offenders and even murders who've done less time. Calling her a spy is a little excessive.[/quote]
Shes convicted of espionage. She is literally a convicted spy. Shes lucky that she was acquitted of aiding the enemy. If she doesnt like 35 years, then maybe she should have thought of the concequences before intentionally breaking the UCMJ. No bleeding heart from me. You want to fuck the US government, the US governemnt is going to fuck you back.
Dont like solitary? Stay the fuck out of it. This isnt a vacation.
[QUOTE=sirdownloadsalot;51317179]It's so easy to spew this pathetic dogma rather than consider for a second "hmm, maybe my government might be doing some fucked up things here". Glad you've been so easily convinced to so dehumanize other human beings to the point of essentially being animals, but I guess emphasizing or caring about other peoples suffering would be "making waves". You're definitely not a sociopath.[/QUOTE]
Hell, I would say that non-human animals don't deserve this kind of shitty treatment. It shouldn't matter if they're human or not.
21st century and disgusting shit like this is still going on in the land of the free.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;51316860]Why should anyone care about this convicted spy over any other prisoner. Answer: you shouldn't.[/QUOTE]
Also, I'm pretty sure that's just up to opinion and is never going to be an actual objective fact.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51317233]Because she's known and people sympathize with her based on her status as transgender, and because a lot of us don't really feel a "TRAITOR" frenzy take hold when thinking of her, and some are even supportive of what she did, based on what overall was leaked.[/QUOTE]
Manning leaked secrets,documents, and other potentially damaging information that compromised HUNDREDS of people's lives from civilians,government workers, and soldiers of not only the US but of other nations as well. I can support Snowden because what he didn't didn't risk the lives of hundreds of people because he felt that the world needed to know of such a grievous breech in privacy and not trusting our allies.
Manning released documents that contained the names of interpreters in Afghanistan, and if you didn't know this, the Taliban really hate them. To the extend they kill the family of anyone who directly worked with the coalition at that point as well as revealing secret locations and undercover operations. So forgive me I show no love to someone that jeopardized people's lives and now uses their own "small" status a transgender prisoner to their advantage. Otherwise nobody would care for Manning at alll.
Loving these people skirting around using she/her pronouns for Manning. "This spy", "they" and all the other stuff really shows who respects her basic identity.
Regardless of that, though, this is horrible but not surprising. It'll practically take a miracle for her incarceration conditions to be improved given the American penal system. Restorative justice is a far better alternative to punitive.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;51312990]This is not cruel and unusual punishment. Let's get that straight. Cruel and unusual punishment has a four prong test that must be satisfied to be considered.
Solitary meets none of it.[/QUOTE]
Maybe we should rework that test then, hmm?
[QUOTE=Code3Response;51316199]I want to know is how can someone found guilty of espionage and sentenced to 35 years in a military prison have access to a fucking cellphone to tweet.
It would be wise to just shut up, do your time, and move on afterward. Get with the program and stop trying to be a martyr.[/QUOTE]
it's her lawyer by the way. maybe they should take that right away from er too... itll teach the danged evil commie spy..
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51319509]Manning leaked secrets,documents, and other potentially damaging information that compromised HUNDREDS of people's lives from civilians,government workers, and soldiers of not only the US but of other nations as well. I can support Snowden because what he didn't didn't risk the lives of hundreds of people because he felt that the world needed to know of such a grievous breech in privacy and not trusting our allies.
Manning released documents that contained the names of interpreters in Afghanistan, and if you didn't know this, the Taliban really hate them. To the extend they kill the family of anyone who directly worked with the coalition at that point as well as revealing secret locations and undercover operations. So forgive me I show no love to someone that jeopardized people's lives and now uses their own "small" status a transgender prisoner to their advantage. Otherwise nobody would care for Manning at alll.[/QUOTE]
It's hard to fully support what manning did. Because it's true that she put lives in danger.
But, what she leaked was also very important for showing off just how fucking disgusting our involvement in the middle east was. Showing that they government secretly kept knowledge of tens of thousands of civilian (non-combatant especially) deaths, was willing to ignore illegal torture, US protecting child abuse, and a whole bunch of other disgusting shit about Guantanamo and US meddling with multiple third world countries. I mean if we just work on quantity, what was leaked could be argued to be more important.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;51318254]Shes convicted of espionage. She is literally a convicted spy. Shes lucky that she was acquitted of aiding the enemy. If she doesnt like 35 years, then maybe she should have thought of the concequences before intentionally breaking the UCMJ. No bleeding heart from me. You want to fuck the US government, the US governemnt is going to fuck you back.
Dont like solitary? Stay the fuck out of it. This isnt a vacation.[/QUOTE]
All you can do is appeal to authority it seems. "You want to fuck the US government, the US government is going to fuck you back" only works one way.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51317213]I find that hard to believe without evidence. The chemistry of the human brain is very delicate, and it can't do much good for a man's mental state to go mucking around with his hormones. I'm not a doctor and I understand it's necessary for the transition but I just can't believe someone under the pressure that Chelsea is can really handle the grueling side effects of HRT on a man's body, especially so late in life. Maybe we can get a doctor or a credible medical report in here to help understand what's going on in her head.[/QUOTE]
ah yes because no doctors have been involved in manning's transition? they have...
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;51319581]Loving these people skirting around using she/her pronouns for Manning. "This spy", "they" and all the other stuff really shows who respects her basic identity.
Regardless of that, though, this is horrible but not surprising. It'll practically take a miracle for her incarceration conditions to be improved given the American penal system. Restorative justice is a far better alternative to punitive.[/QUOTE]
Personally I don't care, I don't want to give a shred of sympathize towards he,she, whatever pronoun Manning wants to go by for what they did. Since she did such acts as a male I'm going to refer to them as Bradley manning, is it PC, not but why would I respect their rights when threw away the ones of others at a much more grievous expense?
You just can't rehabilitate someone convicted of spying considering they did it on their own right, weren't forced or had something in their past to influence it.Manning was trying to be the next Snowden but instead he did something far worse. Also the UCMJ is different from the regular US legal system, which Manning was tried under, one the biggest things Manning was convicted of was aiding the enemy, which ya know is a pretty BAD thing to do if you're in the military.
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51319885]Personally I don't care, I don't want to give a shred of sympathize towards he,she, whatever pronoun Manning wants to go by for what they did. Since she did such acts as a male I'm going to refer to them as Bradley manning, is it PC, not but why would I respect their rights when threw away the ones of others at a much more grievous expense?
You just can't rehabilitate someone convicted of spying considering they did it on their own right, weren't forced or had something in their past to influence it.Manning was trying to be the next Snowden but instead he did something far worse. Also the UCMJ is different from the regular US legal system, which Manning was tried under, one the biggest things Manning was convicted of was aiding the enemy, which ya know is a pretty BAD thing to do if you're in the military.[/QUOTE]
manning may have thrown away her rights in your eyes, but you've just thrown away all credibility by being so petty as to nitpick over someone's gender identity just because past actions they did were performed when they were male. you probably don't realize how much actions and views like yours contribute to the suffering of trans people around the world, but they do. you are a cog in the murder machine, lieber freund.
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;51319581]Loving these people skirting around using she/her pronouns for Manning. "This spy", "they" and all the other stuff really shows who respects her basic identity.
Regardless of that, though, this is horrible but not surprising. It'll practically take a miracle for her incarceration conditions to be improved given the American penal system. Restorative justice is a far better alternative to punitive.[/QUOTE]
She is literally a convicted spy. There is nothing wrong for calling her what she is.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;51319922]She is literally a convicted spy. There is nothing wrong for calling her what she is.[/QUOTE]
see you on the other hand might be arguing a side i despise with all of my being but at least you've got the balls to acknowledge manning how she wants to be seen even if you dislike her.
[QUOTE=Roger Waters;51319898]manning may have thrown away her rights in your eyes, but you've just thrown away all credibility by being so petty as to nitpick over someone's gender identity just because past actions they did were performed when they were male. you probably don't realize how much actions and views like yours contribute to the suffering of trans people around the world, but they do. you are a cog in the murder machine, lieber freund.[/QUOTE]
Sorry that you see it that way. I personally have trans friends and very supportive of their right to be happy. But not Manning's, Manning risked the lives of services members,civilians, and in doing so helped the enemy. That is something I cannot and will not overlook.
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51319952]Sorry that you see it that way. I personally have trans friends and very supportive of their right to be happy. But not Manning's, Manning risked the lives of services members,civilians, and in doing so helped the enemy. That is something I cannot and will not overlook.[/QUOTE]
dude, "black friends" excuse. like, to a T. c'mon surely you can make a better defense than that.
[QUOTE=Roger Waters;51319958]dude, "black friends" excuse. like, to a T. c'mon surely you can make a better defense than that.[/QUOTE]
How about, that I genuinely hate Manning as a person regardless of who they are but because of what they did?
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51319978]How about, that I genuinely hate Manning as a person regardless of who they are but because of what they did?[/QUOTE]
so long as you understand your hatred is also bigotry. fwiw i'm trans and people with views like yours contribute to my struggle daily
[QUOTE=Code3Response;51319922]She is literally a convicted spy. There is nothing wrong for calling her what she is.[/QUOTE]
Convicted spies are people too
who don't deserve to feel suicidal
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51319952]Sorry that you see it that way. I personally have trans friends and very supportive of their right to be happy. But not Manning's, Manning risked the lives of services members,civilians, and in doing so helped the enemy. That is something I cannot and will not overlook.[/QUOTE]
But the "lives risked" are also right next to all of the lives ended and ruined quietly by the US fucking with other nations, that the US would have happily hidden.
Why not stop fucking with other nations unnecessarily and neither the innocent populace or our troops need to be in danger. Again it still doesn't mean it's wholly good what Manning did but I think you're really only looking at one side of it.
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51319952]Sorry that you see it that way. I personally have trans friends and very supportive of their right to be happy. But not Manning's, Manning risked the lives of services members,civilians, and in doing so helped the enemy. That is something I cannot and will not overlook.[/QUOTE]
If the US had not meddled so fucking badly their names would not have gotten on a shitlist
What Manning did is extremely risky, but I don't think it's 100% unjustified considering they actively contributed towards corrupting international processes. Had they not pulled this shit, Manning didn't have any reason to spread these documents.
Though I do think it's mostly orders from higher up. I guess most of the names are people who just executed them?
[QUOTE=Code3Response;51319922]She is literally a convicted spy. There is nothing wrong for calling her what she is.[/QUOTE]
Are you aware that you're making the US government sound like a monstrous dictatorship?
"You fuck the US government, the US governments fucks you back"
"Damn comie scum, shouldn't have picked a fight with the god blessed US of A, AMERICA FUCK YEA!"
You sound like liberty prime from the fallout series.
[video=youtube;T-TGPhVC0AE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-TGPhVC0AE[/video]
[editline]7th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51319952]Sorry that you see it that way. I personally have trans friends and very supportive of their right to be happy. But not Manning's, Manning risked the lives of services members,civilians, and in doing so helped the enemy. That is something I cannot and will not overlook.[/QUOTE]
"The enemy"
No, not "extremists", not a small number of people who have been unfortunately misled by propaganda, not a complicated and morally grey political situation involving a number of state actors with conflicting intentions.
Just, "the enemy".
The world becomes so simple when you can just dehumanize anyone who conflicts with your ideology and justify any action, no matter how cruel, simply because they are "the enemy".
And conveniently anyone who helps "the enemy" becomes "the enemy", which is of course inexcusable and justifies any further action towards them.
No government is perfect or infallible or beyond scrutiny, but that doesn't mean that I am suggesting that any prospective government is wholly terrible either, the world is more nuanced and variable than that.
[QUOTE=Roger Waters;51319872]ah yes because no doctors have been involved in manning's transition? they have...[/QUOTE]
None of those doctors have come out and talked about what kind of treatment they are giving her. I don't trust that lack of transparency.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51322534]None of those doctors have come out and talked about what kind of treatment they are giving her. I don't trust that lack of transparency.[/QUOTE]
I was going to mention doctor-patient confidentiality but apparently there isn't anything in federal law covering it, only state law. I guess Manning's doctors could actually be transparent, but I think it'd be unethical without her consent.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51319988]But the "lives risked" are also right next to all of the lives ended and ruined quietly by the US fucking with other nations, that the US would have happily hidden.
Why not stop fucking with other nations unnecessarily and neither the innocent populace or our troops need to be in danger. Again it still doesn't mean it's wholly good what Manning did but I think you're really only looking at one side of it.[/QUOTE]
But the names could have easily been redacted before leaking. Manning just rushed out whatever she had without thinking what she was doing.
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;51322559]I was going to mention doctor-patient confidentiality but apparently there isn't anything in federal law covering it, only state law. I guess Manning's doctors could actually be transparent, but I think it'd be unethical without her consent.[/QUOTE]
No there is, it's called the Privacy Act of 1974 and also the Health Information Privacy and Portability Act.
[QUOTE=sirdownloadsalot;51317179]It's so easy to spew this pathetic dogma rather than consider for a second "hmm, maybe my government might be doing some fucked up things here". [/QUOTE]
What would you suggest the government should be doing instead? Solitary confinement is standard practice for dealing with a suicidal prisoner. If Manning wasn't put in solitary, and was able to kill herself, everyone would be saying the US government deliberately caused her to commit suicide.
If you're speaking on the greater subject of Manning having been punished in the first place, well, Code3Response isn't wrong when he said that she's literally a spy (having committed the crime of espionage) and is being punished accordingly. Say what you will about American interventionism, but I don't think translators in Afghanistan deserve to die for the ideal of wanton transparency.
[QUOTE=Zyler;51320125]The world becomes so simple when you can just dehumanize anyone who conflicts with your ideology and justify any action, no matter how cruel, simply because they are "the enemy".
And conveniently anyone who helps "the enemy" becomes "the enemy", which is of course inexcusable and justifies any further action towards them.
No government is perfect or infallible or beyond scrutiny, but that doesn't mean that I am suggesting that any prospective government is wholly terrible either, the world is more nuanced and variable than that.[/QUOTE]
The thing is, what you're saying is just as easily applied to the other side. There are a number of posts in this thread that seem to amount to 'what Manning did was OK because putting US personnel in danger is OK because the US is the bad guy'. Things are a little more nuanced than that.
[QUOTE=Rika-chan;51322569]But the names could have easily been redacted before leaking. Manning just rushed out whatever she had without thinking what she was doing.[/QUOTE]
The reason why that didn't happen is because Manning had absolutely no idea what she was leaking- she grabbed what she could and sent it to Wikileaks. Even if it turned out that nothing really sensitive was in those documents, that is extraordinarily reckless.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;51311940]Putting someone in solitary confinement as punishment for depression and suicidal behavior is pretty much cruel and unusual punishment. And dont give me any of that "hurr shes government property because shes in the military" nonsense. That shouldnt be a free pass to essentially try and make someone kill themselves. She should be handed over to civilian authorities as the military is demonstrably making a bad problem worse.[/QUOTE]
I have discussed this earlier with my government teacher and asked whether it was indeed a cruel and unusual punishment, and constitutionally, it is. However, because Manning is in the military service (I presume she still is), Manning would not fall under the Constitution but rather the Uniform Code of Military Conduct, which would overall treat the soldiers as property. I don't support this sort of thing. Is a soldier still not a citizen of their country? Soldiers must still have their constitutional rights if the Constitution means it when it says that the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land.
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