Russia accuses Ukraine of attempted Crimea 'incursions' - Polidicks

[QUOTE=RB33;50861453]Speakers, citizens doesn't matter.[/QUOTE] I speak English, where's my US citizenship, Obama?

I think the most important question we can ask is what karimatrix is doing in Crimea.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;50861470]The logic you suggest is what makes me believe you support this illegal occupation. Of fucking course I'm biased because I'm ethnically Ukranian and I have family living in Ukraine who are suffering from Russian influence and warmongering.[/QUOTE] I support an end to this conflict. A shared independent Crimea would solve this. Is the current situation preferable to that? [QUOTE]Um, it does matter. Because the reason Russia gave for their occupation is bullshit. "Protecting russian speaking citizens"[/QUOTE] Lots of things Russia does is bullshit, that is not surprising. They weren't justified for doing this but they did it anyway. And now we must seek ways to end this conflict.

[QUOTE=A B.A. Survivor;50861504]I think the most important question we can ask is what karimatrix is doing in Crimea.[/QUOTE] He is clearly Putin himself under an alias, creating chaos in Crimea to pinpoint it on free Ukraine.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;50861492]I speak English, where's my US citizenship, Obama?[/QUOTE] I don't know what your point is since I wasn't saying it would be.

[QUOTE=RB33;50861505]I support an end to this conflict. A shared independent Crimea would solve this. Is the current situation preferable to that? Lots of things Russia does is bullshit, that is not surprising. They weren't justified for doing this but they did it anyway. And now we must seek ways to end this conflict.[/QUOTE] You support an end that gives Russia legitimacy to its bullshit claim on Crimea.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;50861512]You support an end that gives Russia legitimacy to its bullshit claim on Crimea.[/QUOTE] Ethnic minorities wanting to belong to another country or independence have rights.

[QUOTE=RB33;50861521]Ethnic minorities wanting to belong to another country or independence have rights.[/QUOTE] That "referendum" was bullshit and the international community does not recognize it nor does it recognize the annexation. Sources [url]http://nypost.com/2014/03/27/un-russias-annexation-of-crimea-is-illegal/[/url] [url]http://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/united-nations-resolution-declares-crimea-referendum-invalid/[/url] [url]http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-28/united-nations-declare-annexation-of-crimea-illegal/5350888[/url] (Fixed the links just now)

[QUOTE=RB33;50861505]I support an end to this conflict. A shared independent Crimea would solve this. Is the current situation preferable to that? Lots of things Russia does is bullshit, that is not surprising. They weren't justified for doing this but they did it anyway. And now we must seek ways to end this conflict.[/QUOTE] An independent Crimea wouldn't solve anything, you're saying that the people either want to be Russian or Ukrainian, how would being independent solve that? They still wouldn't be either. Not everything in life can be solved by taking a neutral stance like you're doing, you can't favor everyone and a neutral stance favors no one.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;50861528]That "referendum" was bullshit and the international community does not recognize it nor does it recognize the annexation. Sources [url]http://nypost.com/2014/03/27/un-russias-annexation-of-crimea-is-illegal/[/url] [url]http://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/united-nations-resolution-declares-crimea-referendum-invalid/[/url] [url]http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-28/united-nations-declare-annexation-of-crimea-illegal/5350888[/url][/QUOTE] I'm not supporting the legitimacy of any referendum not supervised by the international community. Stop thinking i'm supporting Russia here, i'm supporting the people's right to choose. [editline]10th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Electrocuter;50861542]An independent Crimea wouldn't solve anything, you're saying that the people either want to be Russian or Ukrainian, how would being independent solve that? They still wouldn't be either. Not everything in life can be solved by taking a neutral stance like you're doing, you can't favor everyone and a neutral stance favors no one.[/QUOTE] At least they can try to be content with that at least the other side didn't get it. It's a solution for peace, not something either side actually would likely agree on.

The middle option of an independent Crimea isn't fair to Ukraine because it was part of Ukraine before Russia forcibly annexed it. You are taking a situation where Ukraine gets nothing, telling them that they still get nothing, and calling it compromise.

[QUOTE=RB33;50861551]I'm not supporting the legitimacy of any referendum not supervised by the international community. Stop thinking i'm supporting Russia here, i'm supporting the people's right to choose.[/QUOTE] What right to fucking choose? There is no debate that this is Ukranian territory. It belongs to Ukraine. Stop trying to press your bullshit argument that the people have "a right to choose" when it is illegally occupied/annexed.

When will this shitshow end? I just want to live in a peaceful qorld qithout this political bullshit.

Somebody said Russia is at fault again?! [B]TRIGGERED[/B]

[quote]The Crimea belongs to Ukraine. But of course, what do you expect from[/quote] What do you expect from [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/flags/ca.png[/img]? Been talking to some butthurt Banderite ex-pats? Frankly, Crimea was never Ukrainian, it was integrated into a multicultural project known as the Ukrainian SSR (as explicitly distinguished from unitary nation-state of Ukraine) as a symbol of the union and 300 years of friendship. That did not mean being Ukrainian or loyal to a post-soviet unitary nation-state. Some people here are so brainwashed into being for Western imperialism with the excuse of Ukrainian self-determination they consciously don't care about little non-Ukrainian regions historically never part of the states Kiev was. Through the course of the last 20 years, it's been shown besides different pasts, they want different futures as well, but some are insistent on mashing them together to everyone's expense just to spite big bad Russia. Also, the annexation was supported by an overwhelming majority of the population (88% according to pew, compared to 58% Russian demographic). Nobody cares if it was illegal, self-determination precedes international law and the demands of great powers. Those who say otherwise are often the same people that support Kosovo independence or Georgian annexation of former autonomous regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. It's a joke, same with this 'Russian threat' being used as deflection. [quote]Russia's expansionism is ever-present and Putin tries desperately to keep Russia relevant on the world stage. Instead of trying to develop an economy and create a powerhouse that stretches across two continents, he pretends to play Tsar and take territory from independent nations.[/quote] That first words here are blatantly false and contradicted by history recent enough that you and I can remember it. Putin is 'playing Tsar' (aka developing a Eurasian position in response to the last 15-20 years of political developments) because it's kind of hard to diversify and develop when you've been snubbed by the European project as non-european and anti-liberal, and globalization instead comes at your expense. Russia has been, hardly by any choice of its own, placed on a 'wrong side of history' and [b]has become unrepentant in response[/b] Thus, it is our duty as Westerners to put aside a rivalry our elites are anxious to get back into, bring Russia back into the fold of growth and back on the track to its own eventual liberalization/Westernization. America, as successor to the British Empire that has adopted a winner-takes-all attitude, is cynically bringing back not cold war 2.0, but Great Game 2.0. Russia's geopolitical position here is defined by a return to nationalism in a region whose Soviet-era borders are defined by trying to transcend such things, this creates national questions in various areas with one side that inevitably looks to Russia, who tries to freeze the conflict and stem Western advance. This has been happening since the 90s. Anyone who pretends to care about imperialism and focuses on Russia the most (because it uses hard power which is plastered all over mainstream media and easy to paint as 'the real imperialist') is deluding themselves.

[QUOTE=RB33;50861521]Ethnic minorities wanting to belong to another country or independence have rights.[/QUOTE] Fair enough, except that's not what happened in Crimea

[QUOTE=DaBeaver;50861584]When will this shitshow end? I just want to live in a peaceful qorld qithout this political bullshit.[/QUOTE] When Russia leaves Crimea the fuck alone and retracts their bullshit claim on it as well as stop supporting and funding the Eastern Ukranian rebels.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;50861557]The middle option of an independent Crimea isn't fair to Ukraine because it was part of Ukraine before Russia forcibly annexed it. You are taking a situation where Ukraine gets nothing, telling them that they still get nothing, and calling it compromise.[/QUOTE] It would end the conflict and let's say Russia agreed to stop interfering in Eastern Ukraine and they shared Crimea. What would be gained is no more fighting. [QUOTE=joshuadim;50861564]What right to fucking choose? There is no debate that this is Ukranian territory. It belongs to Ukraine. Stop trying to press your bullshit argument that the people have "a right to choose" when it is illegally occupied/annexed.[/QUOTE] The right to self-determination exists. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination[/url]

[QUOTE=RB33;50861551]At least they can try to be content with that at least the other side didn't get it. It's a solution for peace, not something either side actually would likely agree on.[/QUOTE] Lol how is a solution that favors no one "a solution for peace"? A solution for peace would be coming to an agreement that both sides agree on, not that both sides disagree on. How can you think that a solution that favors no one will turn out fine and not grow with both sides growing spite for each other over the years, risking it become something bigger than what it is right now?

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;50861592]Fair enough, except that's not what happened in Crimea[/QUOTE] Yes, but if Russia hadn't forced the issue, it could have worked out like that, removing the need for any of this in the first place. Obviously Russia doesn't really care about such things, so that's why it didn't.

[QUOTE=Conscript;50861590]What do you expect from [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/flags/ca.png[/img]? Been talking to some butthurt Banderite ex-pats?[/QUOTE] What?????? [QUOTE] Crimea was never Ukrainian, [/QUOTE] Um, it was a part of Ukraine before Russia illegally annexed it. It was a part of Ukraine's territory. [QUOTE]Some people here are so brainwashed into being for Western imperialism[/QUOTE] Jesus christ what the fuck? Do you legitimately believe this? How is what Russia doing not imperialism/expansionism of its own? [QUOTE]but some are insistent on mashing them together to everyone's expense just to spite big bad Russia. [/QUOTE] Because Russia [B]ILLEGALLY ANNEXED TERRITORY FROM A NEIGHBORING SOVEREIGN NATION. [/B] [QUOTE]Also, the annexation was supported by an overwhelming majority of the population (88%, compared to 58% Russian demographic).[/QUOTE] The majority of the international community does not recognize this referendum and annexation because how the referendum was conducted was bullshit, leading to a massive bias toward Russia in it. Also how dare you try to call me an imperialist. How DARE you try to fucking downplay me as someone who doesn't give a shit about Ukraine. Ukraine is my ancestral homeland and country of my father, and his father and his father, etc, being wrongfully attacked and influenced by its massively larger and more powerful neighbor. You wouldn't have the fucking stones to say that to my goddamn face.

[QUOTE=Electrocuter;50861618]Lol how is a solution that favors no one "a solution for peace"? A solution for peace would be coming to an agreement that both sides agree on, not that both sides disagree on. How can you think that a solution that favors no one will turn out fine and not grow with both sides growing spite for each other over the years, risking it become something bigger than what it is right now?[/QUOTE] Both want it and doesn't want the other to have it. Therefore it belongs to neither and they can share it instead. Or else they will just fight over it. What solution that both agrees on could be achieved otherwise?

[QUOTE=RB33;50861647]Therefore it belongs to neither and they can share it instead.[/QUOTE] This logic is fundamentally flawed in many ways. In that case, neither Israel or Palestine should exist! They should share as a single state. (Except this will never happen) You can't have a "netural" position in situations like this.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;50861641]The majority of the international community does not recognize this referendum and annexation because how the referendum was conducted was bullshit, leading to a massive bias toward Russia in it.[/QUOTE] I would also like to add that the Pro-Ukrainian Tatar minority boycotted it.

[QUOTE=RB33;50861647]Both want it and doesn't want the other to have it. Therefore it belongs to neither and they can share it instead. Or else they will just fight over it. What solution that both agrees on could be achieved otherwise?[/QUOTE] Well independence certainly isn't going to fix anything because they don't want to be independent, they want to pick a side, I mean what is anyone gonna do about that, you can't forced them to become independent.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;50861656]This logic is fundamentally flawed in many ways. In that case, neither Israel or Palestine should exist! They should share as a single state. (Except this will never happen) You can't have a "netural" position in situations like this.[/QUOTE] I can and I do. Because it's the best. Despite what biased "my side deserves everything we want" people say against it. [editline]10th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Electrocuter;50861666]Well independence certainly isn't going to fix anything because they don't want to be independent, they want to pick a side, I mean what is anyone gonna do about that, you can't forced them to become independent.[/QUOTE] In the interest of peace, you don't let them pick a side. Force them to be neutral and stop trying to raise tensions.

[quote]How is what Russia doing not imperialism/expansionism of its own?[/quote] I didn't say that. It's a form of lesser imperialism that came around only after liberalization and western integration in russia failed, though there was never much interest in its success on our side of the atlantic. I don't think the situation will be resolved by putting more power in the hands of the bigger empire, especially when it being the sole superpower, which allowed it to have miserable policies for the post-soviet space, is one of the biggest sources of this issue our generation shouldn't have to deal with. [quote]Also how dare you try to call me an imperialist. How DARE you try to fucking downplay me as someone who doesn't give a shit about Ukraine. Ukraine is my ancestral homeland and country of my father, and his father and his father, etc, being wrongfully attacked and influenced by its massively larger and more powerful neighbor.You wouldn't have the fucking stones to say that to my goddamn face.[/quote] I probably would and I've earned some level respect from Ukrainians around me for doing it. From my perspective rusyns enjoyed the same kind of relationship to Ukraine that the nationalists whine about regarding Russia, down to forced ukrainization and censorship. You aren't an imperialist no, you're just from a long-running tradition of nationalists that serve as pawns in a chess game between great powers. Even your fascists just act as street thugs for neoliberal economic reform, it's such a joke. Go beat up some coal workers so you can serve up Donbass to the IMF for a better loan.

[QUOTE=RB33;50861667]I can and I do. Because it's the best. Despite what biased "my side deserves everything we want" people say against it. [editline]10th August 2016[/editline] In the interest of peace, you don't let them pick a side. Force them to be neutral and stop trying to raise tensions.[/QUOTE] You go on about the people's right to choose and self-determination and shit but then you favor forcing an option the people don't want on them because "it's for the best"? Are you just arguing for argument's sake now?

[QUOTE=RB33;50861667]I can and I do. Because it's the best. Despite what biased "my side deserves everything we want" people say against it. [editline]10th August 2016[/editline] In the interest of peace, you don't let them pick a side. Force them to be neutral and stop trying to raise tensions.[/QUOTE] Believe me, I just want Ukraine to be left the fuck alone and Russia to fuck off. I WANT peace. I want my people and my family to live in peace. But Russia, as long as they continue to wrongfully occupy Crimea and fund tensions with the rebels, will never allow that to come to fruition. [editline]10th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Conscript;50861684]You aren't an imperialist, you're just from a long-running tradition of nationalists that serve as pawns in chess game between great powers.[/QUOTE] I'm not a fucking pawn. Neither are my family. We just want Russia to leave our country the fuck alone and fuck off. [QUOTE]Even your fascists just act as street thugs for neoliberal economic reform, it's such a joke[/QUOTE] What does this statement even mean

[quote]We just want Russia to leave our country the fuck alone and fuck off.[/quote] What does this even mean? Your history is inextricably tied to Russia, you're part of a cultural union. You might not like that Ukraine, as the borderland, went East more than West since the 1600s but you're not going to change that. Not without tearing apart the multicultural soviet borders. Which might be a fair trade, but it'll never happen because money [img]http://i.imgur.com/asN8rf1.png?1[/img] You can have peace if you federalize, split, or reign in the nationalists out of west ukraine who want to control the whole country and hand it over [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Meme reply" - Novangel))[/highlight]