• Religion may become extinct in nine nations, study says
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[QUOTE=David29;28765454]And what created that?[/QUOTE] All of matter was compressed into a singularity. A point in space of such extremity that the laws of physics do not apply. And then the universe expanded outwards.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28765474]All of matter was compressed into a singularity. A point in space of such extremity that the laws of physics do not apply. And then the universe expanded outwards.[/QUOTE] ...And that matter came from? See where I am going with this?
[QUOTE=David29;28765454]And what created that?[/QUOTE] Emergent phenomena most likely, but we're really not entirely sure, and we're more than happy to say that because as scientists we love NOT knowing, it means there's something to work out and to be brutally honest I'd happily work day after day after day after day to work towards our own answer than some asshole in white robes and a rabbit hat somewhere to say "here you go! some easily digest wank for you swallow like sugar coated shit! get it down your necks"
[QUOTE=David29;28765454]And what created that?[/QUOTE] The "something from nothing" thing applies to all theories of creation. We near need to assume that something has always existed. Quite frankly, I don't think anyone is certain about the origins of "everything", but we're certainly making strides.
[QUOTE=David29;28765490]...And that matter came from? See where I am going with this?[/QUOTE] Energy That energy (if you accept string hypothesis) came from the clashing of two transuniversal membranes, or perhaps from another universe, or a higher dimension. We're not sure, but we're eagerly hunting the answers. And yeah we see where you were going. How did God get there? :smug:
[QUOTE=David29;28765454]And what created that?[/QUOTE] Some schools of thought believe it was created by a collision between two other universes in a multiverse. An infinite chain of multiverses, that have always existed and will never cease to exist. Others think that the universe happened due to probability. Take an infinite amount of time, and a probability with a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001 chance of occurring, and it will eventually happen. Boom universe for no reason.
[QUOTE=David29;28765490]...And that matter came from? See where I am going with this?[/QUOTE] the idea that i have to give you a linear series of events explaining what happened in a universe where the laws of physics do not exist is kind of silly, no?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28765520]the idea that i have to give you a linear series of events explaining what happened in a universe where the laws of physics do not exist is kind of silly, no?[/QUOTE] Yeah.. if there's no laws, no rules, anything can happen for no reason at all.
[QUOTE=David29;28765490]...And that matter came from? See where I am going with this?[/QUOTE]Yes, and it's silly. Tacking God to the end of it only extends the chain of origin problems.
[QUOTE=bravehat;28765516]How did God get there? :smug:[/QUOTE] I don't know. Is that an acknowledgement he exists? Regardless, since science cannot pinpoint the very first origin of everything, I can only say that I still remain open to the idea of some form of creator.
[QUOTE=David29;28765566]I don't know. Is that an acknowledgement he exists? Regardless, since science cannot pinpoint the very first origin of everything, I can only say that I still remain open to the idea of some form of creator.[/QUOTE] except that if we were to discover this creator exists you would be in the same conundrum "Regardless, since science cannot pinpoint the very first origin of the creator, I can only say that I still remain open to the idea of some form of creator creator." unless you're pulling shit out of your ass and don't actually hold to that standard
[QUOTE=David29;28765566]I don't know. Is that an acknowledgement he exists? Regardless, since science cannot pinpoint the very first origin of everything, I can only say that I still remain open to the idea of some form of creator.[/QUOTE] I agree that it is possible that a highly advanced being may have created the universe. I mean, given a place with no laws or time, a metaphysical energy being that has no constraints could well just pop into existence and create the universe for lols. Or a highly advanced species eventually evolved to be able to create universes themselves, and made this one. Or our universe is actually inside a blackhole itself, which is inside another universe. There is no way to be sure, as of yet.
[QUOTE=blazingfly;28765605]I agree that it is possible that a highly advanced being may have created the universe. I mean, given a place with no laws or time, a metaphysical energy being that has no constraints could well just pop into existence and create the universe for lols. Or a highly advanced species eventually evolved to be able to create universes themselves, and made this one. Or our universe is actually inside a blackhole itself, which is inside another universe. There is no way to be sure, as of yet.[/QUOTE] occam's razor cuts up yo family
[QUOTE=blazingfly;28765605]There is no way to be sure, as of yet.[/QUOTE] I think I will just go out by saying the following: +1.
[QUOTE=David29;28765566]I don't know. Is that an acknowledgement he exists? Regardless, since science cannot pinpoint the very first origin of everything, I can only say that I still remain open to the idea of some form of creator.[/QUOTE] No we have pinpointed origin, the big bang, we know this because that's when the fundamental forces became unified, thus creating our current universe. You really should know what you're talking about before you argue these points. And I'm a apatheist/anti-theist meaning if there is a god I don't give a fuck, I don't see his effect on the world, I don't see how he cares for and sheperds his flock, and if he does then why should I honour him or care about him when he will condemn just about everyone to death for worshipping another god or in a different way and when really only the jews will be saved? Either way, both points are null and void, my views of god are irrelevant. And instead of saying I don't know, look for answers.
[QUOTE=David29;28765638]I think I will just go out by saying the following: +1.[/QUOTE] Pussy.
[QUOTE=David29;28765638]I think I will just go out by saying the following: +1.[/QUOTE] Occams Razor dude, as already stated above.
[QUOTE=bravehat;28765669]Occams Razor dude, as already stated above.[/QUOTE] Occams razor cannot apply in a place where there are no rules or physics. I agree, it's unlikely the universe was created artificially and is probably much more likely to be a natural phenomenon, but I'm trying to see his point of view!
[QUOTE=blazingfly;28765685]Occams razor cannot apply in a place where there are no rules or physics. I agree, it's unlikely the universe was created artificially and is probably much more likely to be a natural phenomenon, but I'm trying to see his point of view![/QUOTE] one thing i think i we can assume is that even without the laws of physics complexity isn't more likely than simplicity
[QUOTE=blazingfly;28765685]Occams razor cannot apply in a [b]place where there are no rules or physics.[/b] I agree, it's unlikely the universe was created artificially and is probably much more likely to be a natural phenomenon, but I'm trying to see his point of view![/QUOTE]It's got nothing to do with that. It's essentially just "All things being equal, the simplest explanation is preferred" or "do not multiply factors beyond necessity.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28765697]one thing i think i we can assume is that even without the laws of physics complexity isn't more likely than simplicity[/QUOTE] Without anything to define complexity or simplicity, that argument is void..
[QUOTE=blazingfly;28765711]Without anything to define complexity or simplicity, that argument is void..[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure even in the singularities of pure energy they would likely take the fastest/simplest method to tend to a low entropy state.
[QUOTE=blazingfly;28765711]Without anything to define complexity or simplicity, that argument is void..[/QUOTE] anything that can serve a function that is detectable to us, IE creating a universe/fucking farm women and giving birth to long haired hippies, that's complex no matter what universe you is in
Religions, are they real? Or just a old way to troll people?
[QUOTE=bravehat;28765741]I'm pretty sure even in the singularities of pure energy they would likely take the fastest/simplest method to tend to a low entropy state.[/QUOTE] That's the thing, in this place without rules, anything can happen with no reason; a 'complex' thing defined by our physics is just as likely to happen as a 'simple' thing. The fastest and simplest routes may only be the fastest and simplest in -this- universe.
[QUOTE=blazingfly;28765793]That's the thing, in this place without rules, anything can happen with no reason; a 'complex' thing defined by our physics is just as likely to happen as a 'simple' thing. The fastest and simplest routes may only be the fastest and simplest in -this- universe.[/QUOTE] Somehow I think that the proto universe was likely to behave in a somewhat similar way since the only major difference was since, energy concentration and the fact the 4 forces weren't unified.
[QUOTE=bravehat;28765831]Somehow I think that the proto universe was likely to behave in a somewhat similar way since the only major difference was since, energy concentration and the fact the 4 forces weren't unified.[/QUOTE] We aren't talking about the proto-universe here. We are talking -before- that. The state where the laws and rules of space and time completely break down.
[QUOTE=bravehat;28765642]No we have pinpointed origin, the big bang, we know this because that's when the fundamental forces became unified, thus creating our current universe. You really should know what you're talking about before you argue these points. And I'm a apatheist/anti-theist meaning if there is a god I don't give a fuck, I don't see his effect on the world, I don't see how he cares for and sheperds his flock, and if he does then why should I honour him or care about him when he will condemn just about everyone to death for worshipping another god or in a different way and when really only the jews will be saved? Either way, both points are null and void, my views of god are irrelevant. And instead of saying I don't know, look for answers.[/QUOTE] Let's talk theory for a minute here. In modern religions, their magic book tends to tell us something along the lines of "Worship this God or else you go to hell." So which of these religions are correct? Is Judaism correct? Catholicism? Christianity? How about any of the variations of these religions? Are any of them correct? If we assume that failure to worship the correct God / Creator / Whatever results in eternal Damnation, how do we know if we already missed the boat? Were all those pagan religions wrong? Is there going to be a correct religion in the future that we haven't 'found' yet? If we have infinite time to discover new faith(s), it stands to reason we have an infinite number of God(s) who will Damn us for not following them if we make an incorrect decision or do something to displease them. On the opposite side we have atheism, where there is only one result with a certain outcome that doesn't depend on pleasing something you can't interact with in the physical world. You die and are not reborn. So why place a bet that is certain to be lost? You literally have a 1 in ∞ chance of being correct and securing your place in an afterlife or rebirth. The safest choice is still to accept that there is no correct bet and go with the only certain option. An interesting note: [quote=Wikipedia, on Ragnarök]In Norse mythology, Ragnarök (Old Norse "final destiny of the gods") is a series of future events, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdall, and Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world will resurface anew and fertile, the surviving and reborn gods will meet, and the world will be repopulated by two human survivors. Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of scholarly discourse and theory.[/quote] Sound familiar?
[QUOTE=blazingfly;28765855]We aren't talking about the proto-universe here. We are talking -before- that. The state where the laws and rules of space and time completely break down.[/QUOTE] That's what I mean but if you're gonna get anal about the name, preuniverseverse. Happy?
[QUOTE=bravehat;28765872]That's what I mean but if you're gonna get anal about the name, preuniverseverse. Happy?[/QUOTE] The protouniverse refers to the early universe. As in, this one. A few seconds to a few hours to a few millennia into it's expansion.
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