Anti-Fascists Ruined a Speech by the Leader of the French National Front at Oxford Uni Last Night - Polidicks

[QUOTE=The mouse;47092264]What are these protestors afraid of? It's not like Marine Le Pen is just going to start spouting Fascism and suddenly everyone in the crowd starts applauding.[/QUOTE] It's not about actually barring her from speaking, it's about the symbolism.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47092221]Saying that everyone who acts violent regardless of their agenda is nonsense, because then you agree with people who call police who acts against them fascist as well. [editline]7th February 2015[/editline] Saboteurs all over Third Reich territory who blew up munition trains? Facsists? American and Soviet armies pushing into Europe during Second World War? Fascists? Kurdish fighters battling Islamic State as we speak? Fascists? [editline]7th February 2015[/editline] Yeah, from the liberal point of view you can throw all non-liberals into one bag and mark them as the enemy of the society if you want, but that's your arbitrary choice of dismissing all ideology that doesn't agree with ideology of yours, being ignorant to rather drastic differences between them.[/QUOTE] ah yeah everyone who uses violence against ideology is a fascist scumbag teehee. or you know, going by the context of the post; anti-fascist groups going around trying to silence people via breaking into property, using violence, forcing the cancellation of debates and chase speakers out of town is generally pot kettle black and only garners support out of sympathy.

[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;47090988]This incident is a great example of the horseshoe theory in action.[/QUOTE] I don't see leftprotesters treating people badly based on "race", country or ethnic group . they are protesting because the right wing parties are fucking idiots. [editline]7th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Vasili;47092281]ah yeah everyone who uses violence against ideology is a fascist scumbag teehee. or you know, going by the context of the post; anti-fascist groups going around trying to silence groups, break into property, threaten violence, force the cancellation of debates and chase speakers out of town is generally pot kettle black and only garners support out of sympathy.[/QUOTE] Again, they are doing this because of the idiotic manipulative opinions and speeches of the "debaters", not because of their race, ethnicity or social status. By just comparing the methods they are using you are reducing the problem to a polemic level.

[QUOTE=Vasili;47092210]I didn't know Vice wrote such terribly biased opinion pieces since having a further read into it, this Philip Kleinfeld needs to reevaluate what he's doing to his employees website - especially when he's glorifying the actions of these people on his twitter: [url]https://twitter.com/pkleinfeld[/url].[/QUOTE] most of vice are like that though

[QUOTE=Killuah;47092282]I don't see leftprotesters treating people badly based on "race", country or ethnic group . they are protesting because the right wing parties are fucking idiots. [editline]7th February 2015[/editline] Again, they are doing this because of the idiotic manipulative opinions and speeches of the "debaters", not because of their race, ethnicity or social status. By just comparing the methods they are using you are reducing the problem to a polemic level.[/QUOTE] They still have the right of free speech. Let them have an open debate, and if they show some arguments that have bullshit logic, you can publicly make a laughing stock out of them. Now on the other hand you paint them as martyrs, who will gain just more people on their side simply because they are getting oppressed.

[QUOTE=Vasili;47092281]ah yeah everyone who uses violence against ideology is a fascist scumbag teehee. or you know, going by the context of the post; anti-fascist groups going around trying to silence people via breaking into property, using violence, forcing the cancellation of debates and chase speakers out of town is generally pot kettle black and only garners support out of sympathy.[/QUOTE] Fascist ideology allows oppression and force to be the norm limiting day to day life of everyone involved, barring people of rudimentary rights. Antifacist ideology allows oppression and force to be used in sake of preventing fascist ideology from gaining power. If you can't see the basic difference then you don't have a very good grasp of the concepts.

[QUOTE=Killuah;47092282] Again, they are doing this because of the idiotic manipulative opinions and speeches of the "debaters", not because of their race, ethnicity or social status. By just comparing the methods they are using you are reducing the problem to a polemic level.[/QUOTE] this is irrelevant, people shouldn't be threatened and acted with violence for speaking. [QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47092345]Antifacist ideology allows oppression and force to be used in sake of preventing fascist ideology from gaining power.[/QUOTE] my goodness, did you keep a straight face typing that?

[QUOTE=Vasili;47092368]my goodness, did you keep a straight face typing that?[/QUOTE] Are you going to make a point or going to keep acting smug and pointing on the moral high ground you feel beneath your feet?

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47092400]Are you going to make a point or going to keep acting smug and pointing on the moral high ground you feel beneath your feet?[/QUOTE] Whats fascist about National Front. I skimmed the wikipedia article about it and the only time it says something about fascism is that [QUOTE]While some have denounced its policies as "fascist", some features that are integral to historical (and generic) fascism are absent in the party and others are prominent.[143][/QUOTE] And you know how antifa loves to just call anyone with different views nazi and fascist.

[QUOTE=Impact1986;47092428]Whats fascist about National Front. I skimmed the wikipedia article about it and the only time it says something about fascism is that And you know how antifa loves to just call anyone with different views nazi and fascist.[/QUOTE] [quote] "Jean-Marie Le Pen wrote in the far-right weekly magazine Rivarol that the German occupation of France "was not particularly inhumane, even if there were a few blunders, inevitable in a country of [220,000 square miles]" and in 1987 referred to the Nazi gas chambers as "a point of detail of the history of the Second World War." He has repeated the latter claim several times.[173] Also in 2004, Bruno Gollnisch said "I do not question the existence of concentration camps but historians could discuss the number of deaths. As to the existence of gas chambers, it is up to historians to speak their minds" (de se déterminer)." [/quote] [quote]Marine Le Pen described Russian President Vladimir Putin as a "defender of the Christian heritage of European civilisation."[/quote] no clue man

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47092400]Are you going to make a point or going to keep acting smug and pointing on the moral high ground you feel beneath your feet?[/QUOTE] The point still stands; using fascistic tendencies such as suppressing freedom of speech and debate with harassment, bullying and violence for a [I]'greater good'[/I] is wrong. Trying to talk down to me on how they are not fascist because - [I]by definition[/I] - these political ideologies just aren't is being obnoxiously pedantic and isn't smart - you're just overlooking the actual point I was making. Fighting fire with fire doesn't work, as many in this thread have agreed with - I don't particularly care what fascism's end goal is, trying to chase people off and bully them into silence out of a fear of MKII Hitler and cronies coming along is a simple fear-mongering fallacy. Oxford debates are famous for their intellectual, open-minded and challenging discussions - she should of been allowed to speak so she could offer people a wider look into her party and politics. Those in the room would be able to challenge her thoughts (as many attending where against her but were willing to listen).

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47092221]Saying that everyone who acts violent regardless of their agenda is nonsense, because then you agree with people who call police who acts against them fascist as well. [editline]7th February 2015[/editline] Saboteurs all over Third Reich territory who blew up munition trains? Facsists? American and Soviet armies pushing into Europe during Second World War? Fascists? Kurdish fighters battling Islamic State as we speak? Fascists? [editline]7th February 2015[/editline] Yeah, from the liberal point of view you can throw all non-liberals into one bag and mark them as the enemy of the society if you want, but that's your arbitrary choice of dismissing all ideology that doesn't agree with ideology of yours, being ignorant to rather drastic differences between them.[/QUOTE] Responding to violence with violence isn't fascism its self preservation. You're making quite a big leap comparing war to people who are using violence to stop people from [I]speaking[/I]. Frankly, its a retarded comparison, and ultimately a useless one since we aren't talking about war or self-preservation, we're talking about idealists using [b]violence[/b] to stop people from spreading their ideas in a [B]non-violent[/B] manner. In a peaceful country. A free country no less. But this is the liberal majority of FP in a nutshell I guess, when the government uses violence to silence people, its all vitriol and righteous outrage, but when college students use violence to silence people "lol but they're anti-immigration so its okay"

Marine Le Pen needs to fucking go. She's a trouble seeking drama queen who's done nothing but needlessly stir shit up. Her entire agenda is a big bowl of hate and bigoted stupidity. Surprised Headshotter hasn't showed up to wank her all day long already.

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;47091624]Freedom of speech means that you have the right to make a statement, not that it deserves a platform to be made from. Ideas are entitled to their own existence and nothing else. You can say and think whatever you want, but it's up to the people you're speaking to to decide whether your ramblings deserve their endorsement.[/QUOTE] freedom of speech protects you from the government and nothing else

[QUOTE=Jund;47092697]freedom of speech protects you from the government and nothing else[/QUOTE] Freedom of speech is a human right recognized in international human rights law, it includes the freedom to hold opinions without interference from anyone; the right to seek information, the right to receive information and the right to impart information and all other ideas within it without others such as the OP wishing to silence it. It doesn't just protect us from the government but it's citizens too.

[QUOTE=Jund;47092697]freedom of speech protects you from the government and nothing else[/QUOTE] What an extremely narrow interpretation. There's following the letter of the law, and then there's following the spirit of the law. The point of freedom of speech is that you shouldn't suppress opinions (like threatening people with violence). If this was back in the days of Jim Crow, and the KKK was going around threatening people for speaking out, I'm pretty sure nobody would be defending them with "Free speech means you are protected from the government". Being protected from the government is utterly useless if a bunch of private individuals are going around doing the suppressing themselves.

I'm not sure what you're actually disagreeing with asteroidrules, because I'm taking the definition from numerous international and national law. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Right_to_freedom_of_speech_and_expression[/url]

Uaf were there. Bunch of anti white unintelligent scumbags who want to see british values and culture wiped out and replaced with foreign ones. Facism works both ways. [editline]7th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;47092508]Marine Le Pen needs to fucking go. She's a trouble seeking drama queen who's done nothing but needlessly stir shit up. Her entire agenda is a big bowl of hate and bigoted stupidity. Surprised Headshotter hasn't showed up to wank her all day long already.[/QUOTE] And you would prefer your other two mainstream parties who run france into the ground?

it's easy to say that it's violating your freedom of speech when they're against something you're disposed to freedom of speech protects you from the government censorship and means the government, through the police, will try to defend you from illegal harm because of your views to the best of its ability social experiment go up to the largest black man you can find and say that niggers belong in chains. in the second before you fall unconscious, contemplate whether or not he is silencing your right to freedom of speech no, you are a dumbass

Usually you have to get an approval of the police when you hold a public manifestation, speech or demonstration like this. Point is, Le Pen were offered to speak. If these so called "anti-fascists" wants to get their message through, they should organize a manifestation themselves instead of ruining someones elses. These counter-demonstrations are oppressive because their only purpose is to disturb someone who has the right to speak.

[QUOTE=Vasili;47092790]I'm not sure what you're actually disagreeing with asteroidrules, because I'm taking the definition from numerous international and national law. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Right_to_freedom_of_speech_and_expression[/url][/QUOTE] That definition as you've stated is highly paradoxical as it says everything is above criticism. But of course criticism is the whole point of free speech to begin with.

[QUOTE=Jund;47092859] go up to the largest black man you can find and say that niggers belong in chains. in the second before you fall unconscious, contemplate whether or not he is silencing your right to freedom of speech no, you are a dumbass[/QUOTE] Using your logic I can knock you out, gut you, hang you and rip out your tongue for calling me a dumbass. However I remembered your right to freedom of speech and your right to actually insult people or use terrible analogies if you so wished. I also remembered those acts of violence are illegal, and the government protects you from people who would wish to cause you harm for expressing your viewpoints. The idea that you should suffer negative consequences like [I]'being beaten by a big black man'[/I] for saying things you may not like is childlike and really not thought out properly. [QUOTE=asteroidrules;47092901]That definition as you've stated is highly paradoxical as it says everything is above criticism. But of course criticism is the whole point of free speech to begin with.[/QUOTE] And what is it you are disagreeing with?

[QUOTE=Vasili;47092918] And what is it you are disagreeing with?[/QUOTE] Well try to see how far it'll get you if you claim it's perfectly within your free speech to silence critics of your views. Your definition is not how freedom of speech is treated in practice.

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;47092926]Well try to see how far it'll get you if you claim it's perfectly within your free speech to silence critics of your views. Your definition is not how freedom of speech is treated in practice.[/QUOTE] Regarding the OP? They were committing illegal acts to otherwise silence others voices, their protest was fine until they invaded private property, bolted doors with bike locks, attempted to assault and chase fleeing vehicles, breaking and entering etc. I said the right to voice your opinion, the right to express the desire to silence others is fine as long as they do not commit any offences to do so. The freedom of speech definition is accepted by many countries, especially within the EU, it is quite practiced. Do you have any actual examples to suggest it's not? There's freedom of speech and freedom of expression, I'll need you to clarify how you would go about silencing critics via freedom of speech.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47092438]no clue man[/QUOTE] And what do personal opinions have to do with the politicies of the party? What is fascist about these opinions anyway?

Is it acceptable, considering the activities of anti-fascists, for people to go around using the same tactics and methods against anti-fascists?

[QUOTE=Deng;47092994]Is it acceptable, considering the activities of anti-fascists, for people to go around using the same tactics and methods against anti-fascists?[/QUOTE] they already do, having worked with some Antifa in the past I can say quite confidently they get attacked and interrupted probably far more than this, I know a couple of people who have been hospitalised by anti-antifa people in the last year

[QUOTE=Hellsten;47092878]These counter-demonstrations are oppressive because their only purpose is to disturb someone who has the right to speak.[/QUOTE] When you support an oppressive ideology, you aren't allowed to then turn around and cry oppression.

[QUOTE=Vasili;47092918]Using your logic I can knock you out, gut you, hang you and rip out your tongue for calling me a dumbass. However I remembered your right to freedom of speech and your right to actually insult people or use terrible analogies if you so wished. I also remembered those acts of violence are illegal, and the government protects you from people who would wish to cause you harm for expressing your viewpoints. The idea that you should suffer negative consequences like [I]'being beaten by a big black man'[/I] for saying things you may not like is childlike and really not thought out properly.[/QUOTE] yes, if you disagree with me i will personally send a big black man to your house to beat you up. or perhaps you are sorely lacking in reading comprehension as well as proper reasoning and common sense, as you seem to believe provoked assault is the same as murder and dismemberment

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;47092926]Well try to see how far it'll get you if you claim it's perfectly within your free speech to silence critics of your views. Your definition is not how freedom of speech is treated in practice.[/QUOTE] What the fuck is this nonsense you keep bringing up This wasn't criticism, this was VIOLENCE in an attempt to SILENCE somebody from speaking at an organized event. Criticism would be hearing what she has to say and addressing her personally. Would you be saying the same shit if it was martin luther king trying to hold a public speaking event and the KKK was running around attacking people trying to hear him? Because that shit happened. The doublethink here is amazing. This is monkey shit, its "my tribe is the right tribe and anyone who gets in the way deserves what they get". [editline]7th February 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=N0 WAR;47093098]When you support an oppressive ideology, you aren't allowed to then turn around and cry oppression.[/QUOTE] So Muslims shouldn't ever speak about oppression then because by western definitions sharia law and culture is oppressive to women, homosexuals and freedom of expression?