Obama declares Venezuela a threat to U.S. national security - Polidicks

U.S. national security a threat to U.S. national security

[QUOTE=Octavius;47288416]Evidence shows some degree of involvement, even if not full, but I doubt we can rule on the extent due to the nature of the events not really being something the US would announce its presence in. I'm just basing my assumption on the history of US involvement in the region, and if you don't want to that's fine so long as there is at least recognition that US involvement is possible, since I really only had a problem with your what seemed to be total denial of the possibility. Venezuela has tons of problems, and I'd agree that the administration is at fault for this, though probably for different reasons than you. I still maintain that these problems could be furthered by the attacks against the regime, both from inside and outside of Venezuela. As to your jab at the regimes response to the coup I don't really see how that is relevant. Overall though I would agree that Venezuela does have poor policy and management and surely is authoritarian, but I still feel that meddling from outside the country at least affects this by possible worsening it. So in the end I suppose my only point of contention is about the possibility of US involvement and the degree of it.[/QUOTE] I don't deny US involvement entirely, but it's extremely unlikely that most of the events that have happened in Venezuela since the end of the cold war have been influenced by the US. For the past 16 years, Venezuela has been in a prolonged economic decline, with sectors such as agriculture, mining, or oil extraction nearly collapsing (iron ore and gold mining halved last year). If the US really was orchestrating events, they wouldn't have been content to have let the country rot for that long without at least putting in some kind of puppet government or organizing an actual proper coup. If the US ousted the Venezuelan government right now, what could it gain? It's bankrupt, has almost no foreign reserves. The currency is worthless, there has been a massive brain drain, stocks of machinery and equipment are obsolete or broken. The economy is in terminal decline, it's running out of oil (at a time when the US is producing more oil and its cheap anyways), the population is deeply divided over the basic question of "who should rule", and the potential loyalty of groups who could instigate such a coup is questionable at best. Really, what benefit is there to the United States taking control of Venezuela? The oil age and cold war is over.

[QUOTE=Craigewan;47288260]You guys do realise it is being classified as a threat to US security because it is on the verge of collapsing and they're worried about the effect it will have on the region's stability, right?[/QUOTE] Don't disrupt the circlejerk man. America is evil.

Let's face it, if Maduro goes apeshit and his regime becomes a threat, he won't lash out at the States directly. Worst he can do is to expel all US citizens. Nobody expects a [I]Ghosts[/I] scenario. Now Colombia, that's closer to their home. They have already accused the Colombian gooverment of being one of the backers of the supposed "economic coup" and of being an US puppet for a while now. Correct me if I'm wrong but does the US still have bases at Colombia?

[QUOTE=Deng;47288803] Really, what benefit is there to the United States taking control of Venezuela? The oil age and cold war is over.[/QUOTE] Like thats the only thing available. Markets to sell stuff, then use peoples desire for those objects to make them grow stuff. A government friendly to loans so they can be forced to privatise/sell off assets to american companies to profit from. With stuff nationalised there, a collapse of a psuedo-socialist regime would be the perfect time for American investors to swoop in and eat their fill (and then some). Venezuela (and iran) are also pressuring to trade oil in euros rather than dollars. Some of the BRICS are pressuring for similiar. If OPEC or some of OPEC stopped trading oil in dollars it would have a significant negative effect on the stability and value of the dollar and thus peoples confidence in the dollar and the US ability to pay its debts and thus would increase the price of the US loans which they use to keep their infrastructure running, making debt unmanageable. Edit: just as an addendum to that last point on dollars, pre invasion Iraq traded in euros, after dollars; why?

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;47289419]Like thats the only thing available. Markets to sell stuff, then use peoples desire for those objects to make them grow stuff.[/QUOTE] What markets? Venezuela has a huge distortion with pockets of economic activity, not an economy with distortions. It will take years to rebuild the infrastructure and implement the necessary economic reforms for a healthy base of consumers. Investors don't look at Venezuela, but China and increasing India as a place to make money. Or Botswana or Nigeria. [quote]A government friendly to loans so they can be forced to privatise/sell off assets to american companies to profit from. With stuff nationalised there, a collapse of a psuedo-socialist regime would be the perfect time for American investors to swoop in and eat their fill (and then some).[/quote] The Venezuelan government is already friendly to loans. They're heavily indebted to China. Also what is there to nationalise? The economy is in such a poor state that American investors will need to pour money into the country to make these privatised assets actually viable, and keep at it for years while unrest and shortages gripped the country. Even if it was a US puppet, investors aren't gonna touch the place with a bargepole. [quote]Venezuela (and iran) are also pressuring to trade oil in euros rather than dollars. Some of the BRICS are pressuring for similiar. If OPEC or some of OPEC stopped trading oil in dollars it would have a significant negative effect on the stability and value of the dollar and thus peoples confidence in the dollar and the US ability to pay its debts and thus would increase the price of the US loans which they use to keep their infrastructure running, making debt unmanageable.[/quote] The BRICS can barely agree on anything at all. Their interests are often divergent, and to say that the strength of the US dollar lies on oil is truly laughable. The whole reason the US dollar is strong is because the United States is the largest economy in the world (or next to China), that is also fairly stable and strong (right now the US is actually growing, while the Eurozone and Japan are stagnant or struggling to grow). People use dollars because its an economic powerhouse. If it was based on oil, we would see the dollar severely weaken whenever oil prices or production drop. The USA has a clear rule of law, a strong and healthy democracy, government transparency, not too much corruption, an educated populace, and it is one of the leaders of science and technology in the world and good for innovation. Even if all the oil vanished, these factors would contribute towards the dollar remaining strong.

I'm waiting for the day the US declares itself a threat to the United States, because any more that's what it feels like more than Venezuela, ISIL/IS, Boko Horam, etc. :v:

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;47289419] Edit: just as an addendum to that last point on dollars, pre invasion Iraq traded in euros, after dollars; why?[/QUOTE] If you're talking about the second Iraq war, the dollar dropped by 41% [URL="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aH0_cYGS8Avc"]post-invasion[/URL] But yeah, a country collapsing is not good news, Venezuela was 5 out of 16 in military spending in 2013, is a important hub for the drug-trade and equipment from official stockpiles regularly found its way into FARC and ELN hands.

[QUOTE=Deng;47289839]What markets? Venezuela has a huge distortion with pockets of economic activity, not an economy with distortions. It will take years to rebuild the infrastructure and implement the necessary economic reforms for a healthy base of consumers. Investors don't look at Venezuela, but China and increasing India as a place to make money. Or Botswana or Nigeria. The Venezuelan government is already friendly to loans. They're heavily indebted to China. Also what is there to nationalise? The economy is in such a poor state that American investors will need to pour money into the country to make these privatised assets actually viable, and keep at it for years while unrest and shortages gripped the country. Even if it was a US puppet, investors aren't gonna touch the place with a bargepole. The BRICS can barely agree on anything at all. Their interests are often divergent, and to say that the strength of the US dollar lies on oil is truly laughable. The whole reason the US dollar is strong is because the United States is the largest economy in the world (or next to China), that is also fairly stable and strong (right now the US is actually growing, while the Eurozone and Japan are stagnant or struggling to grow). People use dollars because its an economic powerhouse. If it was based on oil, we would see the dollar severely weaken whenever oil prices or production drop. The USA has a clear rule of law, a strong and healthy democracy, government transparency, not too much corruption, an educated populace, and it is one of the leaders of science and technology in the world and good for innovation. Even if all the oil vanished, these factors would contribute towards the dollar remaining strong.[/QUOTE]If United states wouldn't force countries to sell their oil in dollars then it wouldn't have no worth. And thats why Libya got invaded because Saddam was going to change the currency it is trading oil with from dollar to another currency. US Dollar = Petrodollar.

[QUOTE=ColgateMaster;47296362]If United states wouldn't force countries to sell their oil in dollars then it wouldn't have no worth. And thats why Libya got invaded because Saddam was going to change the currency it is trading oil with from dollar to another currency. US Dollar = Petrodollar.[/QUOTE] Gaddafi edit: was going to mention that but whether or not he stood any chance of actually doing it is questionable so I thought it best to exclude it.

[QUOTE=ColgateMaster;47296362]If United states wouldn't force countries to sell their oil in dollars then it wouldn't have no worth. And thats why Libya got invaded because Saddam was going to change the currency it is trading oil with from dollar to another currency. US Dollar = Petrodollar.[/QUOTE] The dollar has value beyond trading in oil. Do you think that the US being the worlds most powerful economy might have something to do with it? That being a massive economic powerhouse with a sound monetary policy might be related to the strength of the dollar? Also, as far as I know, Libya has never been ruled by Saddam. Secondly, Libya collapsed in a revolution during the Arab wave, and has not seen US forces there. The myth of the petrodollar being crucial to US strength or whatever is fanciful. Back in the Bush years, everybody talked about how when the oil countries stopped using dollars that the US dominance would end. Instead what's happened is that these countries is that their crippling dependence on oil exports has led to them taking on unsustainable debt, other sectors of the economy lagging or in decline, their own currency is weakening, or increasing social and political instability as many of their government policies have failed. As for America? It's still trundling along. And exporting oil. And oil demand worldwide is slowly starting to peak. I wouldn't be surprised if oil consumption starts dropping next decade. The world has changed now, and I think it's going to take some years for the oil exporting countries to realise that they have started to lose a great deal of collective economic and political power.

The way I see it, the Americans played the long game with the oil producers. Let them get confident on their power over the American economy, then as soon as a serious crisis hit the world (And I don't think the americans were dumb enough to [B]not[/B] see it coming) kill the oil prices and make them dance on their own terms. It's pretty awesome what they pulled off last year. First they restore relations with Cuba, and the [I]next day[/I] they are stomping on Venezuela's dry economical balls.

[QUOTE=Deng;47296977]The dollar has value beyond trading in oil. Do you think that the US being the worlds most powerful economy might have something to do with it? That being a massive economic powerhouse with a sound monetary policy might be related to the strength of the dollar? [/quote] Sound monetary policy? Whats that? Whenever you reach a debt ceiling just raise it some? [quote] Also, as far as I know, Libya has never been ruled by Saddam. Secondly, Libya collapsed in a revolution during the Arab wave, and has not seen US forces there. The myth of the petrodollar being crucial to US strength or whatever is fanciful. Back in the Bush years, everybody talked about how when the oil countries stopped using dollars that the US dominance would end.[/quote] The next part isn't relevant since those countries haven't stopped using the dollar? The US was more than happy to remove Gaddafi. If they were serious about the whole "remove dictator" rhetoric then they would be doing similar across the globe including against some of their "friends". Lucky they didn't mind you or else we would be seeing a whole load more countries with civil war and lack of stability. [quote] Instead what's happened is that these countries is that their crippling dependence on oil exports has led to them taking on unsustainable debt, other sectors of the economy lagging or in decline, their own currency is weakening, or increasing social and political instability as many of their government policies have failed. As for America? It's still trundling along. And exporting oil. And oil demand worldwide is slowly starting to peak. I wouldn't be surprised if oil consumption starts dropping next decade. The world has changed now, and I think it's going to take some years for the oil exporting countries to realise that they have started to lose a great deal of collective economic and political power.[/QUOTE] Then America will have to rely on just its own economy to guarantee the value of the dollar. The increasing debt ceiling will have people asking questions about how reliable US debt is, then just a slight drop on confidence will make loans more expensive to the US and US spending unsustainable. Its a run away train. No matter how strong your currency is, repeatedly increasing your debt ceiling is neither a sane economic policy or sustainable nor will people be inspired to keep lending at such good rates if they don't believe its a good investment.

shit

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;47298536]shit[/QUOTE] It really annoys me that you're not actually venezuelan.

[QUOTE=Deng;47287841]I think it's more because there's a genuine concern that Venezuela is on the verge of collapse and is ruled by an mad bus driver who thinks Americans are responsible for everything. In reality, the prolonged collapse of Venezuela is entirely the fault of Chavez and Maduros policies, which have slowly bankrupted and destroyed a nation. Remember this is a country that's killed and arrested tons of political opponents, kicked out the US ambassador, and have been blaming America for everything the same way North Korea does. [/QUOTE] Well both nations actually have a reason to fear the US. I mean, just look at the history of South America and the US, look at how recently the US attempted to overthrow the Venezuelan regime- 2002. Not apologizing for Maduro, but America is a threat to Venezuelan security and has been for a long while.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;47297806]Sound monetary policy? Whats that? Whenever you reach a debt ceiling just raise it some?[/QUOTE] Monetary policy covers primarily interest rates and the money supply. Raising the debt ceiling has nothing to do with monetary policy. Fiscal policy covers borrowing. [quote]The next part isn't relevant since those countries haven't stopped using the dollar? The US was more than happy to remove Gaddafi. If they were serious about the whole "remove dictator" rhetoric then they would be doing similar across the globe including against some of their "friends". Lucky they didn't mind you or else we would be seeing a whole load more countries with civil war and lack of stability.[/quote] And you believe that the US just goes around deliberately toppling dictatorships as a integral part of policy? This is the 21st century, not the 20th. Most dictatorships collapse through their own incompetence rather than US meddling. That is what is happening in Venezuela now, and what happened in most of the Arab states. It is the same reason the USSR collapsed too. [quote]Then America will have to rely on just its own economy to guarantee the value of the dollar. The increasing debt ceiling will have people asking questions about how reliable US debt is, then just a slight drop on confidence will make loans more expensive to the US and US spending unsustainable.[/quote] They already rely on their own economy now. [quote]Its a run away train. No matter how strong your currency is, repeatedly increasing your debt ceiling is neither a sane economic policy or sustainable nor will people be inspired to keep lending at such good rates if they don't believe its a good investment.[/quote] That's not the point of the debt ceiling. The point of the debt ceiling is to put a control on how much money the government can spend. It's a given that it is raised. The question that people get pissed about is by how much and when. Let me tell give you a quick rundown. When economic growth happens, this is because there is more economic activity going on this year than in the previous year. This creates wealth, and it means that collectively the entire USA is slightly richer this year than in the previous year. Because you have more wealth, this means you need more money to represent this wealth. Because there is more money, this means that the US government can now spend more this year than the previous year, because they have more to work with. This also means that they can borrow more too. The debt ceiling is always going to be raised. Governments borrowing and spending is integral to modern economic policy. What's important is making sure that the government is spending this money wisely and generating decent returns from it. Most developed countries (and the well-run developing ones) know how to manage economies. Venezuela failed, to put it bluntly. [editline]11th March 2015[/editline] [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];47298832']Well both nations actually have a reason to fear the US. I mean, just look at the history of South America and the US, look at how recently the US attempted to overthrow the Venezuelan regime- 2002. Not apologizing for Maduro, but America is a threat to Venezuelan security and has been for a long while.[/QUOTE] The US had little to do with the coup attempt in 2002. Most of the support for the overthrow of Chavez was sourced domestically and came from there as well. Remember, it began when Chavez bypassed the national assembly to pass sweeping legislation. In response, trade unions went out on a general strike. Chavez lost most of his former popularity (down to about 30% approval ratings) shortly before the coup too. Foreign plot, or widespread opposition from major sectors of the population? Blaming America is just another way for the flimsy government to prop itself up.