Kerry on Russia : You don't just invade a country on a trumped up pretext
50 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Mackalda2k6;44112722]But...there's so much oil in Russia. How can we resist declaring war on trumped up pretexts?![/QUOTE]It's easy to resist declaring war on Russia for U.S for some reason, probably because it's not a weak, crippled nation with next to no military somewhere in the middle east without any allies at all
The statement might be veiled criticism of the US's behavior, ie: it may have intentionally been ironic.
[QUOTE=Scientist2;44111701]The American people on these boards are well educated and nice, so where the hell do those idiots leading your country come from?[/QUOTE]
From the internet and shitty news sources.
[QUOTE=Vlevs;44112491]It's true that administration has changed, but it's also true that past administrations' decisions stay with the state, good or bad.[/QUOTE]
Anybody who believes this loses all credibility. That is a disgusting way of thought. You can't blame current people for the past. That's the same train of thought as people who blame living white people for slavery in the 1800's.
[QUOTE=Explosions;44112743]This is a dumb logical fallacy that you want to be played out for national pride or something.[/QUOTE]
Wat. I still remember clearly that 2003 developed so intense animosity in European populace it was disheartening. Besides, since this conflict seems to focus on non-military methods internationally, so what is important is willingness of countries to support sanctions against Russia. Discounting international law (and how many gov'ments really care about it?), this is largely a Russia-vs-West influence battle. China has already sided with Russia, and most non-NATO-countries have yet to choose their side.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;44111724]Too bad the way we went about getting rid of Saddam ruined the country's infrastructure.[/QUOTE]
and removed any semblance of stability iraq had.
it will probably have a civil war within this decade, the way things are going.
[QUOTE=Propane Addict;44112919]Anybody who believes this loses all credibility. That is a disgusting way of thought. You can't blame current people for the past. That's the same train of thought as people who blame living white people for slavery in the 1800's.[/QUOTE]
Pardon me, but for a foreigner it's a bit hard to keep which party was in congress when they voted for that-and-that foreign policy. With presidents it's easier, but I know most living across Atlantic aren't even as attentive to US internal politics as I am.
[QUOTE=Medevila;44113086]Saddam's forces trashed the country as they retreated[/QUOTE]
Mistakes were also made on the american side.
Contractors were vastly overpaid, that money could have been used elsewhere.
Disbanding the army lead to large numbers of well trained, angry and now unemployed men roaming around.
Hahahaha, oh god the irony. Kerry voted for Bush's phony war just like everyone else.
I have played Crusader Kings 2 and therefore I can confirm that you absolutely do invade a country on a trumped-up pretext.
Now all I need is a 21st century CK2 mod to prove him wrong.
[QUOTE=Vlevs;44112288]America lost a whole lot of international credibility and goodwill when it started the war in Iraq in 2003. It seems that the time to pay for that has come. There's a big difference whether the term "World police" is used ironically or not.[/QUOTE]
ok but what about the people who are being invaded by russia?
seems like they are the ones getting shafted while you boast about how america is the great satin
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;44113421]I have played Crusader Kings 2 and therefore I can confirm that you absolutely do invade a country on a trumped-up pretext.
Now all I need is a 21st century CK2 mod to prove him wrong.[/QUOTE]
Tsar Putin the Ill-Ruler has a de jure claim on Crimea, and a weak one on east Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Vlevs;44113071]Pardon me, but for a foreigner it's a bit hard to keep which party was in congress when they voted for that-and-that foreign policy. With presidents it's easier, but I know most living across Atlantic aren't even as attentive to US internal politics as I am.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should keep your mouth shut then.
"Stupid Finland, supporting the Germans in World War 2. Oh, you can't criticize my ignorance because your county is far away!"
[QUOTE=Sableye;44113861]ok but what about the people who are being invaded by russia?
seems like they are the ones getting shafted while you boast about how america is the great satin[/QUOTE]
Citizens of Crimea seem remarkably chill about the affair. People in Kiev, on the other hand, aren't. Given that Russian troops aren't [I]yet[/I] confrimed to be elsewhere in Ukraine, you could claim it has some local support. But the way I see it, the main issue is US's slightly problematic track record regards to respecting sovereignity of foreign nations, which makes their calls in the issue slightly morally hollow in the eyes of nations that don't share US's immediate interests.
[editline]3rd March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Explosions;44113913]Maybe you should keep your mouth shut then.
"Stupid Finland, supporting the Germans in World War 2. Oh, you can't criticize my ignorance because your county is far away!"[/QUOTE]
Why, that is a fair point, so I'll assume good faith. That is a choice that, I believe, Finland has to live forever with even if it was a choice made in desperation. Afterwards, there were [I]measures[/I] taken to remove everyone associated with that choice from power, including banning of political parties and making it impossible for Finland to align politically that way post-war. So it's more correct to say that the issue has been historically dealt with.
In the US, the very same people that took the 2003 choice are less than 5% from grip of power every election cycle when they don't get majority.
[QUOTE=Medevila;44113176]Because the situation in the Ukraine is totally akin to that of Iraq in 2003[/QUOTE]
its actually similar in a way, since a LARGE part of its populace is ok with Russia being there, much like a large part of Iraq's population was ok with the US invading(initially).
i know folks want to demonize Russia as hard as they can, but you can't ignore the sheer support they have in eastern Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Explosions;44113913]Maybe you should keep your mouth shut then.
"Stupid Finland, supporting the Germans in World War 2. Oh, you can't criticize my ignorance because your county is far away!"[/QUOTE]
you can't pick on the past of finland while you're the USA
the shittiness of your historical record is only rivalled by the shittiness of the UK's historical record
In all fairness to those defending John Kerry..
He said this on the Senate floor on October 9th, 2002:
[quote=John Kerry]According to the CIA's report, all U.S. intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop nuclear weapons.[/quote]
After it became evident that Dick Cheney had orchestrated the hype about weapons of mass destruction, he then vehemently opposed the invasion.
Kerry accused George W. Bush of misleading the American people and said:
[quote=John Kerry]When the President of the United States looks at you and tells you something, there should be some trust.[/quote]
Kerry had called on Bush, however, to be patient on going into Iraq, and he called for a broader international coalition. He warned Bush:
[quote=John Kerry]Mr. President, do not rush to war, take the time to build the coalition, because it's not winning the war that's hard, it's winning the peace that's hard.[/quote]
In the 2004 presidential election, John Kerry was accused of being a flip-flopper. Nonetheless, the non-partisan group FactCheck affirmed that John Kerry had not flip-flopped:
[quote=FactCheck]Kerry has never wavered from his support for giving Bush authority to use force in Iraq, nor has he changed his position that he, as President, would not have gone to war without greater international support.[/quote]
With all of this in mind, I would say that John Kerry [i]is not[/i] being a hypocrite here.
[QUOTE=J$ Psychotic;44111319]
As in, he was George H. W. Bush's political opponent in 2004.[/QUOTE]
Wrong Bush.
Nobody is bringing up the constant violations in Pakistan and around the world.
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