[QUOTE=Boxbot219;35436513]The death penalty costs that much plus 90k a year.
Your point?[/QUOTE]
Well, you don't have to pay that 40,000 after they're dead I guess.
But money isn't people. Someone's life is not a fucking commodity.
[QUOTE=DaysBefore;35436522]Well, you don't have to pay that 40,000 after they're dead I guess.[/QUOTE]
The appeal process is a long and arduous process that takes a lot of time and money.
Death row inmates generally remain in death row for decades.
[editline]5th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=DaysBefore;35436522]
But money isn't people. Someone's life is not a fucking commodity.[/QUOTE]
A lot of these pro execution people seem to love to make a point about how getting rid of the death penalty would mean that the state would be paying for murderers to be living in prison for life.
I'm telling them that the state pays way more for the death penalty. If they really care so much about criminals who commit capital crimes being a financial burden on the state then they really need to stop making this point.
[QUOTE=areolop;35436497]Which actually costs the state 40k a year[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;35436513]The death penalty costs that much plus 90k a year.
Your point?[/QUOTE]
You'd be a lot more believable if you'd actually show where you're getting this information.
This is a website showing opposing sides on which costs more: Death or Life
Notice how much larger and more informative the Death is More Expensive (the right) side is.
One of the guys on the opposing side doesn't even count because he just goes "LOL bullets don't cost much XDD"
[URL="http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001000"]http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001000[/URL]
And some supplementary links
[URL="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/2289"]http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/2289[/URL]
[URL="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty"]http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty[/URL]
[QUOTE=Hidole555;35436615]You'd be a lot more believable if you'd actually show where you're getting this information.
This is a website showing opposing sides on which costs more: Death or Life
Notice how much larger and more informative the Death is More Expensive (the right) side is.
One of the guys on the opposing side doesn't even count because he just goes "LOL bullets don't cost much XDD"
[URL="http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001000"]http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001000[/URL]
And some supplementary links
[URL="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/2289"]http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/2289[/URL]
[URL="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty"]http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty[/URL][/QUOTE]I've posted that source so often that I actually have the numbers memorized at this point.
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;35436630]I've posted that source so often that I actually have the numbers memorized at this point.[/QUOTE]
:eng101:Nevertheless, it is a good habit to post a source so people don't think you're making facts up.
If taking somebody's life is a crime, I don't see why the government should be able to get away with it.
Or locking someone up in a concrete building for 20 years, for that matter.
Rehabilitation is so much more effective, just look at Norway and Sweden.
one of the last bastions of human abominations. It doesn't work, never has, and never will. Just cause we're not hanging people in the public square doesn't mean it's any more humane, and it's about time people are getting over this.
I personally don't think it's moral. There's no evidence pointing to an afterlife, making life indispensable. We should focus on rehabilitating them, and treat them as patients, not prisoners. If I remember Denmark or some european country had to shut down prisons and lay off guards because they didn't have enough prisoners, which has been attributed to their rehabilitation policies.
Single largest reason I oppose death penalty is the mistakes that are inevitably going to crop up, or false accusations like that one guy who spent 9 years in prison til his daughter recanted her accusation.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;35433282]Sorry if I read you wrong but are you saying we shouldn't punish criminals?[/QUOTE]
Murdering failures is not a punishment, it's a crime of humanity.
[editline]5th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=orcywoo6;35435961]
As far as I'm concerned, anyone that thinks they have the right to take someones life, just because they can, should lose their own. To me it isn't right to have the poor sod that was killed, never to come back have their murderer walking around amongst the living.[/QUOTE]
Soldiers murder innocent civilians, nobody deserves to be killed for it. But nobody wants to blame government officials or anyone who made the choice to attack that place.
The fact of the matter is, there are more people in the wrong who you are blind to notice. Yet you have so much hatred for a single individual that you'd kill them in cold blood because you know somehow that it's right.
[QUOTE=orcywoo6;35435961]So if some absolute fuck went around raping murdering, kidnapping and mutilating looads of little girls on a spree they should be 'rehabilitated?'
Right.[/QUOTE]
Yes we should because then we can find out WHY they did this and WHAT led them up to their horrible actions.
By simply killing them, we gain NOTHING as a society as a whole.
[QUOTE=orcywoo6]As far as I'm concerned, anyone that thinks they have the right to take someones life, just because they can, should lose their own. To me it isn't right to have the poor sod that was killed, never to come back have their murderer walking around amongst the living.[/QUOTE]
Then I'm glad you aren't in a position of power.
[QUOTE=Zanfall;35433316]We should be rehabilitating them. Which currently doesn't happen in this country causing our high reoffending rates[/QUOTE]
Rehabilitating is nothing more than realizing what you can and cannot do, learning about what is virtuous life. Someone can be easily "rehabilitated" within a day, and some are too thick-skulled and full of hate so that rehabilitation seems to take forever.
Also some type of criminals just become better criminals through rehabilitation/psychotherapy, and I bet you didn't thought of that.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;35438865]Also some type of criminals just become better criminals through rehabilitation/psychotherapy, and I bet you didn't thought of that.[/QUOTE]
Unless you're working with a pretty shitty psyschologist, that shouldn't really happen. The entire point of rehabilitation is to produce an ethically conscious, productive citizen out of someone with a history of violent crime. If they're not such a citizen at the end of it, they haven't been rehabilitated.
I mean, think of it this way: when you check into a drug rehab clinic and stay there for a year or so, it hasn't worked if you're still addicted to drugs by the time you leave. It's a very similar principle.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;35438865]Rehabilitating is nothing more than realizing what you can and cannot do, learning about what is virtuous life. Someone can be easily "rehabilitated" within a day, and some are too thick-skulled and full of hate so that rehabilitation seems to take forever.
Also some type of criminals just become better criminals through rehabilitation/psychotherapy, and I bet you didn't thought of that.[/QUOTE]Sure, lets kill them instead.
If you allow death sentence, then atleast make prisoners fight to the death in arena-style deathmatch. And stream it on tv.
[QUOTE=DaysBefore;35433067]You should reward success, but not punish failures.[/QUOTE]
am i the only person left who is genuinely okay with a healthy balance of retributive justice? is it so morally outlandish to believe that when a crime is committed, a proportionate punishment should be handed down?
[QUOTE=TropicalV2;35439862]am i the only person left who is genuinely okay with a healthy balance of retributive justice? is it so morally outlandish to believe that when a crime is committed, a proportionate punishment should be handed down?[/QUOTE]
Well, that's subjective, and I don't think it's really fair for a government to decide such a matter once and for all. Instead, we need to look at this objectively; money is a valuable commodity, and the more a government has the more lives can be saved. So, logically, you would want to save more of it, right? Well, if we only do what's necessary to stop the crime at the source, we don't need to pay for anything extra [I]and[/I] we can ensure we won't have to expend more resources catching repeat offenders.
Retribution doesn't matter because how important it is is undefinable in an objective governmental document. However, I think it is the general purpose of a government to protect its citizens, and, as more money = more resources towards the government doing its job, we have to do everything we can to minimize costs whilst still effectively stopping crime.
[QUOTE=TropicalV2;35439862]am i the only person left who is genuinely okay with a healthy balance of retributive justice? is it so morally outlandish to believe that when a crime is committed, a proportionate punishment should be handed down?[/QUOTE]Punishment does not help ANYONE. Only your sick fantasies of revenge or some other crap.
[QUOTE=orcywoo6;35435961]
As far as I'm concerned, anyone that thinks they have the right to take someones life, just because they can, should lose their own. To me it isn't right to have the poor sod that was killed, never to come back have their murderer walking around amongst the living.[/QUOTE]
Yes, because someone dead can care, right?
We should do witchcraft on them and bring them to the balance of the blessing of light or the darkness of horror. See if the light or the darkness takes him/her!
[QUOTE=jgerm529;35433502]I support the death penalty because to put it simply there are things that a human being can do that completely revokes their right to be alive and questions them truly being a person at all.[/QUOTE]
The idea of a right is that it is not to be revoked. And the idea of human rights is that they guarantee anyone protection from the exact "he's not even a human being" bullshit you spew. Learn what a state of rights is. If you don't like rights, go to north korea.
Sentencing people who would otherwise receive the death penalty with the aim of rehabilitating them is unrealistic. They're put behind bars not just to punish them, but to protect the community.
So even serial killers, rapists, and child molesters would not be able to be killed.....something sounds wrong with that. I'm for prisoners being rehabilitated that haven't killed or raped. But those kinds of people are scum and will contribute about as much as a pile of shit. They could also fake it to get out of prison and do more destructive acts. People are too soft on murderers and other terrible people, it doesn't make you immoral to execute someone if proven guilty of something horrendous.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;35439265]If you allow death sentence, then atleast make prisoners fight to the death in arena-style deathmatch. And stream it on tv.[/QUOTE]
With the ultimate winning price of freedom!
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;35440021]Punishment does not help ANYONE. Only your sick fantasies of revenge or some other crap.[/QUOTE]
my fantasies of revenge? punishment can be incorporated in rehabilitation, as seen in most contemporary models of restorative justice. isolating a criminal from the rest society is adequate punishment, there's nothing sick about it.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;35442046]So even serial killers, rapists, and child molesters would not be able to be killed.....something sounds wrong with that. I'm for prisoners being rehabilitated that haven't killed or raped. But those kinds of people are scum and will contribute about as much as a pile of shit. They could also fake it to get out of prison and do more destructive acts. People are too soft on murderers and other terrible people, it doesn't make you immoral to execute someone if proven guilty of something horrendous.[/QUOTE]
Actually, killing people on a whole is wrong. So, why is killing murderers and rapists less wrong? Oh wait it isn't. It's also useless.
The death penalty breaks down quite simply. You can kill an innocent person or a guilty murderer/rapist/whatever. You are killing someone either way. You are spilling more blood. You are causing more death over the same issue in an attempt to fix what death or pain has brought about. Why is this a good thing? Who does this help? What good does this achieve? Does "retribution" really mean anything? Does the act of killing a guilty person REALLY differ that much from killing an innocent? Are we really any different than a murderer once we engage in state sponsored murder under the pathetic guise of "public good".
People CAN be helped and that should always be the first option taken. Every chance you get to help these people become better is a better action than trying to punish them and make them better through some pathetic attempt that has failed thus far.
And hell, if you want to talk monetary wise, you're spending less money to just incarcerate them than go through the trials that the death penalty requires.
In every single fucking way, the death penalty is less useful than it's alternatives.
[editline]5th April 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=TropicalV2;35442958]my fantasies of revenge? punishment can be incorporated in rehabilitation, as seen in most contemporary models of restorative justice. isolating a criminal from the rest society is adequate punishment, there's nothing sick about it.[/QUOTE]
So why are you defending the use of the death penalty? Proportionate justice for a murderer is for him to be killed, so you're saying the use of it is justified.
There is NO place for that in a rehabilitative system.
They should replace the death penalty with this:
The criminal goes into a room of about 20 people, who for about 10 minutes tell the criminal "We are so disappointed in you."
It's enough to deter any would-be criminal.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;35442046]So even serial killers, rapists, and child molesters would not be able to be killed.....something sounds wrong with that. I'm for prisoners being rehabilitated that haven't killed or raped. But those kinds of people are scum and will contribute about as much as a pile of shit.[/QUOTE]
That's a matter of opinion. The fact is, rape and murder is caused by various mental disorders. Getting rid of these requires less money than just getting rid of the person afflicted by it, produces a fairly decent guy, leaves room for error in your system (you can't "fix" a lethal injection), and overall does not require you to decide who lives and dies (which would be what both your system and the criminal would have in common). It's simply a more efficient system, and those are cold facts right there.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;35442046]They could also fake it to get out of prison and do more destructive acts.[/QUOTE]
You give rapists and murderers way too much credit, and quite frankly I'd almost feel offended if I were a psychiatrist. For one thing, most murders are commited in the heat of the moment, by regular people like you and me that just have far too short a temper. These people are just as smart as you, if not less so. Murders that actually are planned in advance are commited by quite obviously psychopathic individuals, and even if their insanity isn't very obvious, psychologists are specifically trained to recognize mental disorders and neutralize them. So unless your killer is a very smart, specially trained psychological analyst (which would require working with government authorites capable of recognizing mental instability for many years, which afaik is pretty much bound to result in noticing some disorder), they are not breaking out in this manner.
Also, even if it were possible in anything other than a theoretical sense, your solution would get many, many potentially productive people killed because a very small amount of them [I][B]might[/B][/I] try something and very likely won't suceed.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;35442046]People are too soft on murderers and other terrible people, it doesn't make you immoral to execute someone if proven guilty of something horrendous.[/QUOTE]
Again, matter of opinion, waste of money and resources, and actually quite hypocritical.
This is my state and I hope they abolish it.
There is no excuse for the death penalty, it should have never been invented.
[QUOTE=Legend286;35443893]There is no excuse for the death penalty, it should have never been invented.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it was really "invented" as much as it was "discovered". In fact, I think it was first realized and used the moment we noticed bashing people in the head with pointy stones killed them.
Funnily enough, it's still just as unevolved today.
Good work Connecticut! Change for the better.
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