Malaysian passenger airliner shot down over Ukraine near Russian border
1,595 replies, posted
I am neutral about this, but the thing is that nobody should instantly jump to conclusions.
First of, why would anyone fly [B]civilian[/B] plane over the warzone? You'd have to be insane to do that, especially if you know that there is AA gear present there. Second, if you think Russia did it, what do you think it tried to accomplish with this?
All I know that if anyone here tries to say anything pro-Russian that they will be seen as lunatic, and that really isn't neutral stance.
[QUOTE=Abrown516;45420918]Speaking of field trip, why were there so many minors anyways?[/QUOTE]
Vacation? It's not really all that much. Say all those children are only child (at least on the flight) and still have two parents (with them on the flight), that makes 160 parents on 80 children, which still leaves 55 childless adults on the flight. This is only with one child per couple. Let's say every child on average has a brother or sister, this makes 80 parents on 80 children, which leaves 135 childless adults on the plane.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;45420981]
First of, why would anyone fly [B]civilian[/B] plane over the warzone? You'd have to be insane to do that, especially if you know that there is AA gear present there. Second, if you think Russia did it, what do you think it tried to accomplish with this?[/QUOTE]
Did you read the thread?
So German news is reporting that the Ukraine rebel command claimed to have shot down an Antonov just at the time and in the area where the plane went down shortly before the plane was registered to be down.
[QUOTE=Bonde;45420935]The most likely reason for this incident is that this was a major mistake made by an inexperienced rebel AA crew. They probably did not know that the airplane was civilian, and mistook it for a Ukrainian army cargo plane, a type of target that has been downed for great effect previously during the conflict.
By the looks of it, the rebels claimed the kill on social media before properly identifying the aircraft, which could mean that they documented their massive mistake before realizing it. If that is the case, the amount of evidence against them, black box or not, will make it extremely difficult for Russia to keep supporting them the slightest bit, since they won't even have a chance to cover it up.
It is quite unlikely for Russia to have shot down any airplane. They warned the Ukrainians about not messing with their border, but they likely won't go as far as shooting down planes in Ukrainian airspace. The other way around, the Ukrainians does not face any threat by air currently, which means they would likely not target an unidentified airplane, especially since their airspace is used by commercial airlines, and they should know that. It could be a mistake by either of the two countries, but it is most likely that the rebels have made a huge mistake.
If the AA tech is from Russia, they will most likely face severe sanctions. If the AA tech was captured from the Ukrainian army, then the rebels will receive the blame alone.
Fox is probably already blaming the Russians, and RT is probably already blaming the US or NATO.
The question is, how much support will the Ukrainians get to fight the rebels? If all this is true, the rebels likely have no friends outside of their own trenches anymore.[/QUOTE]
Isn't this going to dig a big hole for Putin? He's already trying to deal with people claiming he abandoned the rebels.
[QUOTE=Roll_Program;45420948]In the latter, I was talking about the one that happened earlier this year, I even said MH370, not MH17.[/QUOTE]
You're talking in a thread about an airplane that was shot down about another airplane that went missing, sorry I didn't notice just by the planes name which isn't all that similar that you weren't talking about this plane..
Nobody is going to accept responsibility for this, so it is crucial that third-party investigators get to that crash site before it is seized.
r8 l8 m8
[QUOTE=mobrockers;45421010]You're talking in a thread about an airplane that was shot down about another airplane that went missing, sorry I didn't notice just by the planes name which isn't all that similar that you weren't talking about this plane..[/QUOTE]
I thought I made it obvious enough by calling it a totally different flight number :v:, you guys must have known the flight number of the Ukraine incident one by reading the fucking article, right?
If the Ukrainian separatists are found to be the true culprit in all of this, I don't think Russia is going to continue supporting the rebels anymore, at least not nearly as much or as openly as they have.
[QUOTE=Roll_Program;45421020]I thought I made it obvious enough by calling it a totally different flight number :v:.[/QUOTE]
They both start with MH and have a 7 in it, I just didn't make that connection :v:
[HR][QUOTE]/QUOTE][/HR]
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;45420981]I am neutral about this, but the thing is that nobody should instantly jump to conclusions.
First of, why would anyone fly [B]civilian[/B] plane over the warzone? You'd have to be insane to do that, especially if you know that there is AA gear present there. Second, if you think Russia did it, what do you think it tried to accomplish with this?
All I know that if anyone here tries to say anything pro-Russian that they will be seen as lunatic, and that really isn't neutral stance.[/QUOTE]
Almost nobody is saying the Russian did it, read the thread again.
[QUOTE=scurr;45421019]Nobody is going to accept responsibility for this, so it is crucial that third-party investigators get to that crash site before it is seized.[/QUOTE]
According to some sources, pro-Russian separatists have found the black box, and are going to send it to Russia, despite being no Russian passengers on board.
I don't think that that is going to save their sorry asses though, especially with all the evidence so far pointing at them.
This story is gonna be all over Vice for at least 3 episodes.
[QUOTE=Medevila;45421069]It's dumb to suggest Russia did this, although it was most likely the Russian-armed separatists.
Shot down over rebel held town with soviet-era rocket launcher
Separatists have been firing on (and have shot down) Ukrainian military planes
Untrained separatists are unlikely to have been able to identify the plane as civilian[/QUOTE]
It would not be a rocket launcher that did this, especially not a Soviet-era rocket launcher.
[QUOTE=Thlis;45421001]Isn't this going to dig a big hole for Putin? He's already trying to deal with people claiming he abandoned the rebels.[/QUOTE]
If the rebels really shot that plane down, he is going to have a really hard time explaining it. I see him handling it in two ways: 1. Abandoning the rebels completely, knowing they have fucked up beyond salvation, or 2: Coming up with some kind of crazy conspiracy theory that no one outside of Russia will believe.
I think the first answer is the most likely, since he is already having a hard time controlling them, so he will probably decide to let them be put down as fast as possible.
[QUOTE=Bonde;45421113]If the rebels really shot that plane down, he is going to have a really hard time explaining it. I see him handling it in two ways: 1. Abandoning the rebels completely, knowing they have fucked up beyond salvation, or 2: Coming up with some kind of crazy conspiracy theory that no one outside of Russia will believe.
I think the first answer is the most likely, since he is already having a hard time controlling them, so he will probably decide to let them be put down as fast as possible.[/QUOTE]
Watch as he invades Ice Crimea.
[QUOTE=Bonde;45421113]If the rebels really shot that plane down, he is going to have a really hard time explaining it. I see him handling it in two ways: 1. Abandoning the rebels completely, knowing they have fucked up beyond salvation, or 2: Coming up with some kind of crazy conspiracy theory that no one outside of Russia will believe.
I think the first answer is the most likely, since he is already having a hard time controlling them, so he will probably decide to let them be put down as fast as possible.[/QUOTE]
The conspiracy is that the Ukraine did it:
[url]http://rt.com/news/173636-buk-malaysian-plane-crash/[/url]
[QUOTE=Aide;45421098]This story is gonna be all over Vice for at least 3 episodes.[/QUOTE]
I have been following the Ukraine reports intensely. Simon does a great job of following the events. Yesterday he was following the Ukrainians trying to arrest rebels and rebel supporters that had gone underground in the former occupied cities.
This scares me.
Its either the end or the start of a big conflict.
If the rebels (accidentallu) did this Putin will be forced to either support or reject them.
Rejection is the beginning of the end
Support means the NATO and the US will be forced to take harsher or even military action.
I hope with all my fiber itll all end soon. This entire conflict. In a good way.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;45421138]The conspiracy is that the Ukraine did it:
[url]http://rt.com/news/173636-buk-malaysian-plane-crash/[/url][/QUOTE]
Remember that RT is a bit like Fox. They might sprew propaganda, but not necessarily what the president is going to roll with in the end. I know that Fox is quite hostile to Obama, but they are likely still trying to blame Russia.
-snip-
US confirms the plane was shot down
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;45421141]This scares me.
Its either the end or the start of a big conflict.
If the rebels (accidentallu) did this Putin will be forced to either support or reject them.
Rejection is the beginning of the end
Support means the NATO and the US will be forced to take harsher or even military action.
I hope with all my fiber itll all end soon. This entire conflict. In a good way.[/QUOTE]
Relax, nothing is going to happen between Russia and Ukraine because of this, if this was caused by the rebels. if Russia end up blaming someone else than the ones who caused it, they will likely face severe sanctions, nothing more. Now what that will do to the long term relationship between the US/EU and Russia is something much more complicated.
[QUOTE=Stopper;45421176]Acknowledging that I'm probably ridiculously late - if they saw bodies, that means the pilots made an effort to land it or the plane fell in such a way that [I]might[/I] possibly leave survivors. Usually, when a plane hits the ground directly, it's impossible to discern anything on it - as morbid as it is, this might be a good sign.[/QUOTE]
The scattering of the debris field indicates the the plane broke up mid-air, as is usual with a missile impact.
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;45421191]US confirms the plane was shot down[/QUOTE]
how?
[QUOTE=laserguided;45421133]Watch as he invades Ice Crimea.[/QUOTE]
Finland?
[QUOTE=Scot;45421217]how?[/QUOTE]
It's on cnn, I'll see if I can get a link
You can see the video of the crashing site [URL="http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0e5_1405626203"]here[/URL] (nsfw of course), some of the bodies are recognizable, others are just a pile of burned flesh.
Well now I know what's going to be on the news for the whole day, and the next few days.
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