Malaysian passenger airliner shot down over Ukraine near Russian border
1,595 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Fusnax;45433955]One question, the civ planes don't have a radar and tells them if a missile is following them or is that only the movies?[/QUOTE]
Missiles don't follow planes, they intercept them, and civilian aircraft by and large don't have radar usable for that, and although some do have radar, it's typically only forward facing radar for weather/cloud detection.
[QUOTE=Fusnax;45433955]One question, the civ planes don't have a radar and tells them if a missile is following them or is that only the movies?[/QUOTE]
for the most part, no. certain models do but those are models mainly meant as private jets for dignitaries or VIPs those also have countermeasures(chaffs and flares? or just flares? my book on aviation security doesnt say). for the most part most civilian aircraft rely on ATCs to relay important info such as inbound aircraft or security measures.
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;45433590]This is a fine example of appeasement- and it's been tried before with not so great results....
Say Ukraine does just bend over- what is next on Russia's wish list?[/QUOTE]
Washington
[QUOTE=Mbbird;45433971]Missiles don't follow planes, they intercept them, and civilian aircraft by and large don't have radar usable for that, and although some do have radar, it's typically only forward facing radar for weather/cloud detection.[/QUOTE]
So basically the pilots didn't knew anything about the missile, and there was nothing they could do even if they would had detected it
[QUOTE=Fusnax;45434289]So basically the pilots didn't knew anything about the missile, and there was nothing they could do even if they would had detected it[/QUOTE]
There's not much the pilots could have done anyway, especially since they were pretty close to their service ceiling altitude and I don't believe 737s climb very fast anyway. One thing aircraft without countermeasures can do against ground-based anti-air missiles is try to climb away from the launch point and hope that the missile runs out of range (or fuel, however you look at it), but I don't know the circumstances of the intercept (how far the plane was from the launcher, which direction it was shooting from, etc), so it's hard to say.
[QUOTE=AJ10017;45431937]why did this have to happen on my birthday[/QUOTE]
It wasn't for you
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8T-K3vM6ZQ[/media]
the fact that separatists are firing warning shots and blocking some access to the crash site kind of destroys a lot of the skepticism
They are saying this is one of the rebels AA being transported to Russia:
[video=youtube;L4HJmev5xg0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0[/video]
Also, journalist at the site of the crash scene.
[video=youtube;xLdRBaL4-wU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLdRBaL4-wU[/video]
[QUOTE=Conscript;45433556]What the hell makes you think the east would have an insurgency against the Russians? lol, some nationalist sleeper cells from the west, maybe.
Also, it's legitimate Ukrainian territory, but the government isn't legitimate. Half of Ukraine considers it so, and it's sooner their territory than belonging to some coup government that toppled their elected leader, refused their demands, and presided over the destruction of the two major eastern parties. .
If they want to secede from a failed state that hates their blood, more power to them.[/QUOTE]
Eastern Ukraine does not all think as one. Even if they do not support the Ukrainian government, I imagine there are at least some people there who like Russia even less and/or dislike what the rebels are doing. I wouldn't appreciate a bunch of rebels with missile launchers and other military equipment parading through my town with it, even if I supported their cause.
The government is legitimate. Yanukovych's government was not popular. The election results were nearly tied, and most of his votes were in the east. Even then, most people only voted for him because they disliked his opponent, Tymoshenko, even less. There was also a lot of allegations of fraud against the election. Also, Tymoshenko was imprisoned by Yanukovych's government almost immediately after the election, for allegations that many believe are false and unfair.
The revolution in 2014 occurred because, by that point, Yanukovych had been even less popular than he had been in 2010. He refused an agreement with the EU, which was the spark that set off the protests. He did not act in the interests of the country's people as a person with such political power should do. The new government that was put in place was done so since the majority of people rallied for that change in the government. The 2014 election got them exactly that, with 54% of the vote. Additionally, he didn't have to do a run-off for the elections. Meanwhile, separatists in eastern Ukraine were trying to disrupt the elections, attempting to disallow a fair vote, in their favor. They tried, but they failed.
[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Ukrainian_Presidential_Election_2014_Map.png/300px-Ukrainian_Presidential_Election_2014_Map.png[/IMG]
The lighter grey areas are electoral districts that voted for him.
Many Ukrainians wanted this since they believed it was for the better, and that's exactly what they got. Now the eastern rebels are trying to fight the government for it. They have no right to secede, the people of Ukraine voted for the new government. If they want Russia's support in this, it would be much easier for them if they just moved into Russia.
Additionally, of course the government would hate them. They're shooting them out of the region, and destroying/stealing their equipment at any chance they get.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/TIyyt3E.png[/IMG]
Source to the image, but its from another forum.
[url]http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?236005-Situation-in-the-Ukraine-Crimea-*Photos-Videos*-ONLY/page226[/url]
Also video of the one in the image:
[video=youtube;rm48vi4TghY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm48vi4TghY[/video]
[QUOTE=Gentry;45429054]These were probably not the most well trained operators. Even if they were ex-Ukrainian military.
Like when the Ukrainians shot down a civilian plane by mistake in 2001 killing 78.
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28361223[/url][/QUOTE]
That's not really comparable.
It happened because of a training accident. Two very long range missiles (300miles+), each with a very powerful warhead (217kg HE filled with 36,000 2g and 3.6g steel ball bearings) designed to wipe out nuclear bomber flights were fired at a training drone, the first missile obliterated the drone and the second missile kept flying downrange until its sensors spotted an aircraft 200 miles downrange which it began to seek and subsequently destroy.
[QUOTE=Fusnax;45433955]One question, the civ planes don't have a radar and tells them if a missile is following them or is that only the movies?[/QUOTE]
Few civilian aircraft have the sensors to detect missiles and even then the system is worthless without countermeasures. I understand there are some civilian aircraft in Israel that have flares but they are rather dangerous and require specials training to maintain seeing as they are basically guns loaded with a dangerous incendiary compound.
Countering IR missiles common of MANPADSs is difficult. They don't emit any microwave radiation like radar guided missiles do so they're forced to detect them using sensors that spot the characteristic flash of a missile launch.
Countering radar guided missiles requires somewhat more simple microwave detection systems. You would then lunch chafe which creates a new radar signal for the missile to home at or use electronic jamming to stop it from getting a radar fix on you.
IR missiles are expensive to detect and cheap (ish) to counter while radar guided missiles are a bit expensive to detect and cheap to counter using chafe (though modern systems aren't easily affected by it) and expensive to counter with jamming.
So GeminiJets has two model B777 with Malaysian Airlines paint: [URL="http://www.geminijets.com/database/index.php?r_product=1&r_operator=Malaysia+Airlines&r_type=777-200&r_status="]Link[/URL]
Guess what: 9M-MRD was MH17 and 9M-MRO was MH370. It's a bit creepy.
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;45434847][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/TIyyt3E.png[/IMG]
Source to the image, but its from another forum.
[url]http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?236005-Situation-in-the-Ukraine-Crimea-*Photos-Videos*-ONLY/page226[/url]
Also video of the one in the image:
[video=youtube;rm48vi4TghY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm48vi4TghY[/video][/QUOTE]
Is there proof that 312 was captured by Russians in Crimea? It would be silly to leave a very valuable AA missile platform to the enemy
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;45435358]Is there proof that 312 was captured by Russians in Crimea? It would be silly to leave a very valuable AA missile platform to the enemy[/QUOTE]
Buk isn't very valuable. I'd be more worried about the dolphins they left behind.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;45435358]Is there proof that 312 was captured by Russians in Crimea? It would be silly to leave a very valuable AA missile platform to the enemy[/QUOTE]
All sorts of valuable equipment were left behind at the start of the war, so I won't be surprised.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;45435358]Is there proof that 312 was captured by Russians in Crimea? It would be silly to leave a very valuable AA missile platform to the enemy[/QUOTE]
well they couldn't really do jack shit, the much better equipped Russian Federation soldiers were surrounding them and forced them out, they couldn't take anything with them
[QUOTE=laserguided;45435364]Buk isn't very valuable. I'd be more worried about the dolphins they left behind.[/QUOTE]
Actually, as far as i know, buk is pretty good for what it is designed. Don't mind it's 30km range, it's a medium range missile. US have patriot variants with similar operational range, and they are still in service.
[QUOTE=antianan;45435463]Actually, as far as i know, buk is pretty good for what it is designed. Don't mind it's 30km range, it's a medium range missile. US have patriot variants with similar operational range, and they are still in service.[/QUOTE]Like the Patriot, Buk has been continually upgraded afaik.
Oh man, now some kinda lead douchebag of the pro-Russian terrorists is supposedly saying the people on that plane were already dead before the plane even took off.
[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2697895/Now-rebel-commander-blamed-downing-MH17-says-bodies-aren-t-fresh-claims-corpses-dead-days.html]Source[/url], but on the other hand, it's fucking daily mail we're talking about here.
If he really said this, i wouldn't be surprised if they just started straight up fucking denying that airplanes exist
'men is not capable of fly we nyet heff wiings what is dis aeroplan'
[QUOTE=DudesonFan;45435697]Oh man, now some kinda lead douchebag of the pro-Russian terrorists is supposedly saying the people on that plane were already dead before the plane even took off.
[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2697895/Now-rebel-commander-blamed-downing-MH17-says-bodies-aren-t-fresh-claims-corpses-dead-days.html]Source[/url], but on the other hand, it's fucking daily mail we're talking about here.
If he really said this, i wouldn't be surprised if they just started straight up fucking denying that airplanes exist
'men is not capable of fly we nyet heff wiings what is dis aeroplan'[/QUOTE]
From that source:
[img]http://puu.sh/ahUaQ.jpg[/img]
Dat flags.
[QUOTE=laserguided;45435364]Buk isn't very valuable. I'd be more worried about the dolphins they left behind.[/QUOTE]
What twisted version of red alert are you playing? everyone knows it would be giant squids
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;45434847]
Also video of the one in the image:
[video=youtube;rm48vi4TghY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm48vi4TghY[/video][/QUOTE]
Well, that certainly is a full BUK system of radar, TEL and loader vehicle.
Also, for the purpose of going full-on armchair-general sperglord...
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;45434819]They are saying this is one of the rebels AA being transported to Russia:
[video=youtube;L4HJmev5xg0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0[/video][/QUOTE]
Looks like that one is missing a missile or two on the rack, most likely from firing.
A paragraph taken from a finnish news source and crudely translated by me:
"OSCE-observers report facing troubles at the crash site in eastern Ukraine. The pro russian separatist at the scene behaved rudely and inappropriately, reports the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. [B]The men were armed and some of them seemed intoxicated.[/B]"
Kinda tells you how competent and organized the separatists really are.
Oh and [URL="http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/Ukraina+syytt%C3%A4%C3%A4+separatisteja+turmakoneen+ruumiiden+varastamisesta/a1405732674007"]here's[/URL] the source if anyone wants to read it through a translator.
[QUOTE=download;45435017]
Few civilian aircraft have the sensors to detect missiles and even then the system is worthless without countermeasures. I understand there are some civilian aircraft in Israel that have flares but they are rather dangerous and require specials training to maintain seeing as they are basically guns loaded with a dangerous incendiary compound.
[/QUOTE]
Currently all Israeli passenger jets are fitter with the [URL="http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2006-02-16-anti-missile-airline-system_x.htm"]Flight Guard[/URL] anti missile system which uses flares as countermeasures.
Eventually all jets will be fitted with the [URL="http://gizmodo.com/israel-is-putting-frickin-lasers-on-its-commercial-airl-1532826549"]Skyshield[/URL] laser based anti missile system.
[QUOTE=Riller;45435963]Well, that certainly is a full BUK system of radar, TEL and loader vehicle.
Also, for the purpose of going full-on armchair-general sperglord...
Looks like that one is missing a missile or two on the rack, most likely from firing.[/QUOTE]
Actually, no it isn't. There's no radar there, at least, not that I saw. I saw quite a few launchers but no dedicated target acquisition radar which is a really important part.
Buks can launch their missiles without being directed from a separate radar unit. This was a design choice to allow launchers the option of continued fighting even if their radar had been blown up. Unfortunately this comes at a cost in the form of a lack of target identification. Every single one of those TELAR units (the ones with the missiles and the big protrusion on the front of the turret) are incapable of telling the difference between, say, a Boeing 777 and an An-26, so this video is something I find very interesting indeed.
Literally everything the rebels have shot down was done so while being fucking blind, if that is indeed their launcher fleet. I'd bet all the money in my bank account on that being the reason why they said they shot down an An-26 [i]immediately[/i] after MH17 hit the ground; they seriously didn't have any fucking clue either way.
Apparently rebels removed 38 bodies from the crashsite. Heard it from my parents so no source atm
Everything that the rebels have done right now make them more and more suspicious.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;45436256]Actually, no it isn't. There's no radar there, at least, not that I saw. I saw quite a few launchers but no dedicated target acquisition radar which is a really important part.
Buks can launch their missiles without being directed from a separate radar unit. This was a design choice to allow launchers the option of continued fighting even if their radar had been blown up. Unfortunately this comes at a cost in the form of a lack of target identification. Every single one of those TELAR units (the ones with the missiles and the big protrusion on the front of the turret) are incapable of telling the difference between, say, a Boeing 777 and an An-26, so this video is something I find very interesting indeed.
Literally everything the rebels have shot down was done so while being fucking blind, if that is indeed their launcher fleet. I'd bet all the money in my bank account on that being the reason why they said they shot down an An-26 [i]immediately[/i] after MH17 hit the ground; they seriously didn't have any fucking clue either way.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/wv3bAM6.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/5019/medium/Buk_radar_9S18M1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://77rus.smugmug.com/Military/Engineering-Technologies-2012/i-9HkcpBh/0/L/TVM2012ch2p1photo031-L.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=download;45435017]That's not really comparable.
It happened because of a training accident. Two very long range missiles (300miles+), each with a very powerful warhead (217kg HE filled with 36,000 2g and 3.6g steel ball bearings) designed to wipe out nuclear bomber flights were fired at a training drone, the first missile obliterated the drone and the second missile kept flying downrange until its sensors spotted an aircraft 200 miles downrange which it began to seek and subsequently destroy.
[/QUOTE]
Yes and the ukrainian military were called idiots for doing the drone targeting right infront of a civilian air path and were later banned from using Buks for several years because they were so stupid.
[QUOTE=laserguided;45433223]I just laid out my roadmap to peace.[/QUOTE]
Sweet map, bro
[IMG]http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2120/51y7.jpg[/IMG]
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