Malaysian passenger airliner shot down over Ukraine near Russian border
1,595 replies, posted
So is it confirmed that the plane was shotdown?
I've seen a news flash about some of the Ukraine repaired Buk's at 27.06.
Could it be the same ones?
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;45436200]Currently all Israeli passenger jets are fitter with the [URL="http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2006-02-16-anti-missile-airline-system_x.htm"]Flight Guard[/URL] anti missile system which uses flares as countermeasures.
Eventually all jets will be fitted with the [URL="http://gizmodo.com/israel-is-putting-frickin-lasers-on-its-commercial-airl-1532826549"]Skyshield[/URL] laser based anti missile system.[/QUOTE]
Aren't El Al flights banned from certain airports due to Flight Guard? I remember reading about it a while ago, dunno if it was just discussion or actual policy.
Edit: Forgot to mention, Flight Guard only works against the one threat they were designed for (IR guided MANPADS). It would not stop a SAM.
[editline]20th July 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;45436256]Actually, no it isn't. There's no radar there, at least, not that I saw. I saw quite a few launchers but no dedicated target acquisition radar which is a really important part.
Buks can launch their missiles without being directed from a separate radar unit. This was a design choice to allow launchers the option of continued fighting even if their radar had been blown up. Unfortunately this comes at a cost in the form of a lack of target identification. Every single one of those TELAR units (the ones with the missiles and the big protrusion on the front of the turret) are incapable of telling the difference between, say, a Boeing 777 and an An-26, so this video is something I find very interesting indeed.
Literally everything the rebels have shot down was done so while being fucking blind, if that is indeed their launcher fleet. I'd bet all the money in my bank account on that being the reason why they said they shot down an An-26 [I]immediately[/I] after MH17 hit the ground; they seriously didn't have any fucking clue either way.[/QUOTE]
Complete speculation here, but is it possible the radar is somewhere else? I know with the patriot system the radar is far away from the launchers to prevent them getting destroyed by anti-radiation missiles.
[B]Ukraine Says It Can Prove Russia Supplied Arms System That Felled Jet[/B]
[quote]At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed the three Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, missile launchers mounted on armored vehicles, crossed the border into Russia about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed about 4 a.m. [/quote]
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-ukraine.html[/url]
[B]U.S. Sees Evidence of Russian Links to Jet’s Downing[/B]
[quote]Without going into detail about the intelligence he had been shown, Mr. Obama said that the separatists had been armed and trained “because of Russian support.” High-flying aircraft cannot be shot down without sophisticated equipment and training, he added, “and that is coming from Russia.”
He singled out President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, accusing him of waging a proxy war that led to the tragedy. “He has the most control over that situation,” Mr. Obama said, “and so far, at least, he has not exercised it.”[/quote]
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-ukraine.html[/url]
You can feel the political tensions rising like a fever.
[QUOTE=Xonax;45437274]So is it confirmed that the plane was shotdown?[/QUOTE]
At this point I'd ask if it was confirmed that we're living in the real world and not the Matrix.
[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;45442279]At this point I'd ask if it was confirmed that we're living in the real world and not the Matrix.[/QUOTE]
There's a higher chance that we're living in the Matrix than there is of this plane NOT having been shot down.
I think it's only logical that Russia has supported the separatists. They displayed too much military might over the last while, and that can't simply be the result of pillaging bases.
However, after much searching online, I've realized that almost all of my knowledge about the conflict and plane shooting are from Ukrainian based, American reports... even though they are both biased, Ukraine for obvious reasons and America for clashing economic super power reasons.
This is a silly question for sensationalist headlines, but, has anyone come across reports not rooted in an agenda?
[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;45442681]Good luck finding a Russian news outlet that doesn't either blindly defend Putin, or just simply ignore the whole thing.[/QUOTE]
I know... I just can't trust those guys.
They have such an awful reputation for their media. And it's well deserved.
The video of the Malaysian aircraft going down behind some forestry strikes me as abit odd. It had no smoke trail following it, which surely if it got shot down would have had abit of smoke? I guess it depends where it got it
[QUOTE=Cairn Trenor;45442857]The video of the Malaysian aircraft going down behind some forestry strikes me as abit odd. It had no smoke trail following it, which surely if it got shot down would have had abit of smoke? I guess it depends where it got it[/QUOTE]
Where is this video?
I think it's the an-26 one.
[QUOTE=Jsm;45441349]Aren't El Al flights banned from certain airports due to Flight Guard? I remember reading about it a while ago, dunno if it was just discussion or actual policy. [/QUOTE]
It's banned in Switzerland [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Guard#Controversy"]according to wikipedia[/URL].
[QUOTE=Jsm;45441349]
Edit: Forgot to mention, Flight Guard only works against the one threat they were designed for (IR guided MANPADS). It would not stop a SAM.
[/QUOTE]
Yes. Hence [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyshield_(jammer)"]Skyshield[/URL].
I've been reading some crazy theories with the links being shared around on facebook, here's some of em:
- MH17 was actually MH370 since the bodies were said to be already dead even before the flight
- The crash perfectly corresponded with the Israeli invasion of Gaza so that international press would diverted from it and to the crash instead
- Reports say that the plane was 'seen burning as it dropped from the sky' but the some of the videos that show the crash didn't show burning debris falling due to the missile but only an explosion on the ground
Some of them are pretty crazy but some of them kinda makes sense. I wouldn't put all of my trust on the info though.
[QUOTE] - Reports say that the plane was 'seen burning as it dropped from the sky' but the some of the videos that show the crash didn't show burning debris falling due to the missile but only an explosion on the ground[/QUOTE]
There's a million videos tagged as "RAW MH17 SHOOTDOWN FOOTAGE!!!" that can be taken from anywhere, any time, just to get views. People do this. See: The video from the AN-26 shootdown with one engine on fire that keeps getting reposted as MH17.
[QUOTE=Kardia;45442643]I think it's only logical that Russia has supported the separatists. They displayed too much military might over the last while, and that can't simply be the result of pillaging bases.
However, after much searching online, I've realized that almost all of my knowledge about the conflict and plane shooting are from Ukrainian based, American reports... even though they are both biased, Ukraine for obvious reasons and America for clashing economic super power reasons.
This is a silly question for sensationalist headlines, but, has anyone come across reports not rooted in an agenda?[/QUOTE]
Vice news is allright. They usually show the good, the bad and the ugly of both sides of the conflict.
They rarely make allegations. At most they say "This side claims this, but the other side claims this. We're unsure who's saying the truth or not but they're both politically motivated."
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;45425541][IMG]http://puu.sh/agp7c/89807eed4a.jpg[/IMG]
Is it just me or is this just disgraceful? Showing one of the victims just to gain a new likes and web views to get more fucking money. This is what I'm talking about when I say media circus or carnival.
[editline]18th July 2014[/editline]
If I had someone in my family who was killed and used by news networks as their poster victim, I would be offended and outraged[/QUOTE]A newspaper here in belgium called "Het Laatste Nieuws" had pictures of almost 100 of the victims on the cover. And everyone around me seemed to not mind and didn't see what the problem with it was, fuck sake.
[QUOTE=camper182 V2;45446502]A newspaper here in belgium called "Het Laatste Nieuws" had pictures of almost 100 of the victims on the cover. And everyone around me seemed to not mind and didn't see what the problem with it was, fuck sake.[/QUOTE]
It was done before families had even been informed. People don't want to discover a loved one is dead through the newspaper.
I've read that the pro-russian separatists are moving pieces of the plane and body's. Guessing they want to remove the shrapnel from the missile that hit.
Disappointed in the reaction from the countries from which the passengers were. Look's like you can shoot down a plane and get away with it now guys
[QUOTE=Complifused;45446762]Disappointed in the reaction from the countries from which the passengers were. Look's like you can shoot down a plane and get away with it now guys[/QUOTE]
What do you think they should do.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;45446776]What do you think they should do.[/QUOTE]
More than just sit around twiddling their thumbs because they're too scared to do anything against russia
[QUOTE=Complifused;45446950]More than just sit around twiddling their thumbs because they're too scared to do anything against russia[/QUOTE]
Even though it be easier to go there and just kill them off and end this in one huge offensive strike, people still prefer to value their own lives and of others, solve this without tragedy(something unavoidable in war unfortunately) and avoid causing mass confusion and death on either side of the conflict, something that could cause even more instability everywhere.
[QUOTE=Complifused;45446950]More than just sit around twiddling their thumbs because they're too scared to do anything against russia[/QUOTE]
You mean like sending in troops? How would more death solve anything.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;45447031]You mean like sending in troops? How would more death solve anything.[/QUOTE]
I guess a little slap on the wrist in the way of a angry letter or speech is ok then
[QUOTE=Complifused;45447051]I guess a little slap on the wrist in the way of a angry letter or speech is ok then[/QUOTE]
They say on the news that France, US, UK (?) and 2 more countrys will apply sanctions to Russia. Not sure how much that will affect them, since they can just up the gas price.
[QUOTE=Teddybeer;45450332][URL="http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html"]United States Assessment of the Downing of Flight MH17 and its Aftermath[/URL]
More in link.[/QUOTE]
There's more than just a hint of blaming Russia in there, they are full on accusing them of supplying and training the separatists. And i bet the US know a fair bit more than we know if this is the case.
Wonder what will happen if an official statement is made to reinforce this?
Hey, sorry for being out of the loop for a bit, but I saw that one black box device is held by the Ukrainians, and one by the separatists/Russians. Does anyone know which side has has black box? Either the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) or the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR)? I think the FDR would be more useful to an investigation, but if the CVR was tampered with, it could be made to present an erroneous situation.
The CVR could be the most useful, the recordings are often enhanced so you can hear many other details the FDR won't tell. The FDR is really straightforward and may not confirm much other than a midair break up.
Curious as to Russia's level of involvement. Is there any picture proof of things being given to rebels by Russia? 150 vehicles sure sounds like a lot. I know many military bases in the east were taken over troops guarding them either all deserted, joined sides, or fled. I was assuming a lot of the armour is being captured from there and utilized.
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