• Malaysian passenger airliner shot down over Ukraine near Russian border
    1,595 replies, posted
lol my country main newspaper, found out the AN-26 video being shot down, and used it claiming it was the MH17
[QUOTE=Aman;45451704]Curious as to Russia's level of involvement. Is there any picture proof of things being given to rebels by Russia? 150 vehicles sure sounds like a lot. I know many military bases in the east were taken over troops guarding them either all deserted, joined sides, or fled. I was assuming a lot of the armour is being captured from there and utilized.[/QUOTE] According to BBC news, John Kerry has said the US have evidence a "missile" launcher was moved back to Russia after the crash.
Does anyone know if the Russian claims, that Putin was on a similar flightpath at a similar time as MH17, are true? [editline]20th July 2014[/editline] If so then I don't care how many boxes I get, that is atleast a LITTLE fishy. If not true then, well, more lies from RT I guess.
[QUOTE=Saxon;45451605]The CVR could be the most useful, the recordings are often enhanced so you can hear many other details the FDR won't tell. The FDR is really straightforward and may not confirm much other than a midair break up.[/QUOTE] The pilots would never know a missile was heading towards them, though. You'd just hear normal cockpit chatter, then probably an explosion and silence, if the missile was an SA-11. That sort of missile would cause the plane to be utterly destroyed, judging from how it's meant to take out military aircraft. I don't really know 100% though, I might be wrong. In addition, there was a DHL flight out of Baghdad that got hit my a shoulder-launched missile, and the pilots never knew what happened until after they successfully crash landed. The MH17 pilots would likely not understand they were hit by a missile if the plane did not fragment upon being struck, and instead think it was a mechanical failure. The FDR, however, would at least give an exact location when the aircraft lost power, which could help prove whether any alleged missile launchers were aiming at the location at the time of the accident or not. It's possible that other important information could be on the FDR, but at least the worst thing that could be altered is the aircraft's altitude, which has been confirmed as 33,000 ft (10km).
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;45451857]Does anyone know if the Russian claims, that Putin was on a similar flightpath at a similar time as MH17, are true? [editline]20th July 2014[/editline] If so then I don't care how many boxes I get, that is atleast a LITTLE fishy. If not true then, well, more lies from RT I guess.[/QUOTE] I read that Russia actually denied that his plane had a similar flight path, RT kind of shit themselves on that one. [QUOTE=Lethaxx;45451828]According to BBC news, John Kerry has said the US have evidence a "missile" launcher was moved back to Russia after the crash.[/QUOTE] All these accusations are coming from the US but they are never backed by proof. If they have it why don't they release it for the public? The most reasonable way to go about this is to have a thorough and cooperative international investigation instead of playing a dangerous blame game. It feels like the US is just trying to rile people up instead of problem solving.
[QUOTE=mix999;45451995]I read that Russia actually denied that his plane had a similar flight path, RT kind of shit themselves on that one. [/QUOTE] Sauce?
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;45452010]Sauce?[/QUOTE] Just looked for the article and I slightly misinterpreted what it said. An official spokesperson just refused to comment on the anonymous news source, he didn't confirm or deny it, my bad. [quote]A Kremlin spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, declined to comment on an Interfax report citing an unidentified Russian aviation official saying that the Malaysian Air flight bound for Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam may have been hit by mistake by Ukrainian forces seeking to shoot down Putin’s plane. [/quote] From: [url]http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-17/putin-cornered-as-malaysia-jet-crash-shows-isolation-on-ukraine.html[/url]
[QUOTE=download;45446537]It was done before families had even been informed. People don't want to discover a loved one is dead through the newspaper.[/QUOTE] I'm sure that can't be right. Isn't it [I]illegal[/I] to publicly reveal that somebody has died before next of kin is informed?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ff_LTlZZI8[/media]
Some people just want the story and assume they know. Faster stories means more views.
Just found out one of my sisters best friends was supposed to be on this flight but decided to stay two more days and changed to another one.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;45451857]Does anyone know if the Russian claims, that Putin was on a similar flightpath at a similar time as MH17, are true? [editline]20th July 2014[/editline] If so then I don't care how many boxes I get, that is atleast a LITTLE fishy. If not true then, well, more lies from RT I guess.[/QUOTE] That was a really stupid accusaiton. Shooting Putin's plane down would have caused a massive russian invasion.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;45447031]You mean like sending in troops? How would more death solve anything.[/QUOTE] Ends the conflict. Kill the rebels, you end the rebellion. Death does solve these kinds of human problems, actually. Intervention should have occurred months ago before this crisis got so far out of hand. But it didn't, and now here we are. Sitting around and continuing to do nothing remains the worst possible course of action (or rather, inaction). The sooner this conflict ends, the sooner stability is returned to Eastern Europe and the Ukraine, and the sooner people stop dying in this ridiculous insurrection. Nobody's got the balls to say "Enough of this shit" though, and that's fucking pathetic.
[QUOTE=Govna;45454486]Ends the conflict. Kill the rebels, you end the rebellion. Death does solve these kinds of human problems, actually.[/QUOTE] –United States Army, 1955-1975 2003-2011 Dealing with a rebellion or insurgency is not as simple as "just kill all the rebels". Other countries getting involved would only make the situation uglier and more complicated.
Welp, this is.... getting heated up. [quote]The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.[/quote] [url]http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/[/url] Basically, Russian Defence Military now supports Rebel's version of events. This is huge accusation but atleast they presented thier reason based on recon, not some newscast or tweets. [B]Also, before RT bashing, hey, they just report in English words from Defence Ministry.[/B] (Marked this in Bold for the most gifted to notice) And here is link to said briefing (there is English translator on video as i get it) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrhEzecCdTI[/media] Also, i am not going to imply anything or go in argument but here's a question - [B]IF[/B] black boxes will confirm that there was Ukranian su-25 (i mean, if it's jet not buk then most likely pilots would have chance to mention it in radio chatter, right?), how will the world react? Will it try to find excuse for Ukranian military, argue that jet was russian/stolen by rebels, or actually do something about this? Again, this is just RT report and my question. Why dumb ratings?
karimatrix pls go RT is not a real source [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Please stop with these personal attacks." - Swebonny))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Luni;45456643]karimatrix pls go RT is not a real source[/QUOTE] did you even read what i wrote. i simply presented this as english written report about briefing, their info[B] regarding briefing[/B] is as same as any other in russian news, but in English for FP users to read, [B]regarding said briefing[/B] of Russian Military Defence. God almighty, read before you write!
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45456662]did you even read what i wrote[/QUOTE] no not really let me correct myself: let's wait until we hear from anyone outside of the kremlin
[QUOTE=Luni;45456771]let me amend that let's wait until we hear from anyone outside of the kremlin[/QUOTE] It's a Russian Ministry of Defence Briefing. Are you going to wait untill CNN will report on it? Like i said, info in RT's article is same as in other Russian Articles and you can see briefing video up there.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45456619]Welp, this is.... getting heated up. [url]http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/[/url] Basically, Russian Defence Military now supports Rebel's version of events. This is huge accusation but atleast they presented thier reason based on recon, not some newscast or tweets. [B]Also, before RT bashing, hey, they just report in English words from Defence Ministry.[/B] (Marked this in Bold for the most gifted to notice) And here is link to said briefing (there is English translator on video as i get it) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrhEzecCdTI[/media] Also, i am not going to imply anything or go in argument but here's a question - [B]IF[/B] black boxes will confirm that there was Ukranian su-25 (i mean, if it's jet not buk then most likely pilots would have chance to mention it in radio chatter, right?), how will the world react? Will it try to find excuse for Ukranian military, argue that jet was russian/stolen by rebels, or actually do something about this? Again, this is just RT report and my question.[/QUOTE] And the US claims that it was a SAM site and claim that satellites picked up the launch from rebel territory.
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;45456858]And the US claims that it was a SAM site and claim that satellites picked up the launch from rebel territory.[/QUOTE] Is there any video on web with US Defence briefing aswell? I am just asking, are you guys rating dumb out of boredom?
[QUOTE=Luni;45456473]–United States Army, 1955-1975 2003-2011 Dealing with a rebellion or insurgency is not as simple as "just kill all the rebels". Other countries getting involved would only make the situation uglier and more complicated.[/QUOTE] This rebellion has been falling apart for a while now, in case you didn't know. Russian support is what's keeping it afloat; if we were providing half as much to the Ukrainian government and military for as long as they have been to the separatists, this fight would nearly be over. These are not jihadists in the Middle East out on a religious holy war looking to martyr themselves in the name of Islamic fundamentalism we are talking about here, nor are they Communist guerrillas who have been waging a revolutionary movement for 20 years. They're Eastern European militiamen who have been suffering from leadership and infrastructure crises for the last few months after taking heavy losses at the hands of the Ukrainians who are slowly putting them down since their dramatic and abrupt appearance. You're severely overestimating these people and the extent of commitment a Euro-American intervention would require in order to prevent this conflict from being dragged out any longer than what it already has (too long). We don't need to declare fucking World War III or deploy tens of thousands of troops to start fighting alongside Ukrainian forces; we need to be supplying the Ukrainians with the military oversight and support and the weaponry and equipment they need in order to end this thing faster. Anything really is better than nothing. Or we can continue to sit around and do nothing as usual and watch this conflict last for months and months and cost more lives unnecessarily all the while having to worry about how the Russians are going to react to watching their proxy warriors in the Ukraine slowly be whittled down and destroyed. Whatever, I guess.
What is with the dumb ratings? That was a ministry of defence conference which presented better arguments than Ukraine has in the last 3 days. 1. They showed satellite pictures of the BUK-M1 in Ukraine held territory right before the incident, and then another picture showing it moved after MH17 went down. 2. They also showed radar recordings of MH17 going down and a Ukrainian su25 that was near it during the time. They want to know why there was a military jet next to the aircraft when Ukraine claimed to no have any jets in the air during the time, and ask America to release satellite pictures which detected the heat signature of the launched rocket from the ground. Edit: Some more evidence supporting Russian claims from a credible American investigative journalist who worked for the Associated Press and Newsweek [video=youtube;CR5HtzbMy-E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR5HtzbMy-E[/video]
[QUOTE=Heisenburger;45457374]What is with the dumb ratings? That was a ministry of defence conference which presented better arguments than Ukraine has in the last 3 days. 1. They showed satellite pictures of the BUK-M1 in Ukraine held territory right before the incident, and then another picture showing it moved after MH17 went down. 2. They also showed radar recordings of MH17 going down and a Ukrainian su25 that was near it during the time. They want to know why there was a military jet next to the aircraft when Ukraine claimed to no have any jets in the air during the time, and ask America to release satellite pictures which detected the heat signature of the launched rockets from the ground. Edit: Some more evidence supporting Russian claims from a credible American investigative journalist who worked for the Associated Press and Newsweek [video=youtube;CR5HtzbMy-E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR5HtzbMy-E[/video][/QUOTE] Remove s from http also, as for ratings i think it because people do not actually read after seeing RT mention. wich is sad since topic of their report is important. Also, just readed on russian news site vz.ru that white house commented on briefing saying that " They might also present some recon evidence soon" . Interesting....
Okay guys this is just silly, instead of just insta dumbing this guy how about you guys give some arguments? Just dumbing him only shows that you just blindly dumb him because the theory supports Russia and shows Ukraine in a bad light.
until either side comes forward with any actual evidence, i'd take the us's word over the russian defense ministry as well as any of its state media any day [editline]s[/editline] and that says something :v:
[QUOTE=gangleider;45457705]until either side comes forward with any actual evidence, i'd take the us's word over the russian defense ministry as well as any of its state media any day[/QUOTE] The stuff that was shown in the video isn't evidence? (not that I actually watched the video fully, fuck, it's 30 minutes long with a woman speaking in broken English), but I skipped through parts and they actually provided images. [editline]21st July 2014[/editline] I [B]want[/B] to believe the rebels did it, it's not like I'm this Russia lover/supporter or shit like that.
[QUOTE=gangleider;45457705]until either side comes forward with any actual evidence, i'd take the us's word over the russian defense ministry as well as any of its state media any day[/QUOTE] Just like how the US claimed Saddam had 'weapons of mass distruction'? I'm just using that as an example. The evidence presented in the conference were factual and backed up with videos and picture; it raises some alarming questions that need to be answered.
[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;45457745]The stuff that was shown in the video isn't evidence? (not that I actually watched the video fully, fuck, it's 30 minutes long with a woman speaking in broken English), but I skipped through parts and they actually provided images.[/QUOTE] The thing is, when people want their view supported they gonna go as far to say that tweeted images that have only captions to give them context are far more reliable then military report. If situation was polar opposite (Russia giving tweeted images of plane) and US Defence military holding press conference, how do you think they would react? Not to mention that most of western media coverage comes from Ukraine Goverment controlled media reports while everything Russian is dubbed propaganda without detailed check. Do you really think Ukraine Media would allow for some anti-goverment reports? Ofcourse not. Soo lets hope black boxes (Wich will be given to Malayzia representatives in Donetsk btw) and examination of plane's damage will clear this up. Also, i am still curios to read about my questions regarding world's reaction [B]IF[/B] it will be revealed that Ukranian Military was responsible for incident.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45456619]Welp, this is.... getting heated up. [url]http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/[/url] Basically, Russian Defence Military now supports Rebel's version of events. This is huge accusation but atleast they presented thier reason based on recon, not some newscast or tweets. [B]Also, before RT bashing, hey, they just report in English words from Defence Ministry.[/B] (Marked this in Bold for the most gifted to notice) And here is link to said briefing (there is English translator on video as i get it) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrhEzecCdTI[/media] Also, i am not going to imply anything or go in argument but here's a question - [B]IF[/B] black boxes will confirm that there was Ukranian su-25 (i mean, if it's jet not buk then most likely pilots would have chance to mention it in radio chatter, right?), how will the world react? Will it try to find excuse for Ukranian military, argue that jet was russian/stolen by rebels, or actually do something about this? Again, this is just RT report and my question. Why dumb ratings?[/QUOTE] I do have to mention that luhansk reported that they had captured their own su-25 so even if there still is a level of uncertainity [QUOTE]In Luhansk, the self-declared Luhansk People's Republic claimed it now had its own air force, made up of a single Su-25 fighter jet seized from the Ukrainian army. This could not immediately be confirmed.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/13/ukrainian-shell-russian-border-town-donetsk"]the guardian[/URL] other than that, since i'm not a radar operator, and there is no third party (except for maybe belarus or poland) with radar range on it its hearsay until more concrete evidence.
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