• Malaysian passenger airliner shot down over Ukraine near Russian border
    1,595 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Camundongo;45468630]Which if it was an Su-25 sounds like one engaging forces on the ground, then detecting a radar signal on the ground and attempting to perform evasive maneuvers (seeing as a rapid ascent would still bring it far below MH17). Which might even explain why MH17 was hit - the BUK was evaded by the Su-25, carried on flying and then accidently locked on to MH17 and engaged it. Which would make it a case of unfortunate positioning and timing.[/QUOTE] Yeah, that's what I'm believing as well. Rebels probably knew about Ukrainian jet in the area (whatever it was), but didn't know about airliner. Fired the missile at the jet, and their radars (or Russian long-range airport radars from Rostov tracking the plane, by accident) flew it into passenger plane instead. As it stands now, given all the evidence presented to the public, it seems to me as what most likely happened.
Guys, I don't know if that theory is too strong considering Buks are guided through a semi-active cycle [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Missile_homing.jpg[/img] Wouldn't the Buk vehicle that fired it have to have intentionally shifted from the Su-25 to the 747
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45468632] yet would not explain why Ukranian military denies this. I'd say if they would speak of this right on spot they would be in far more trustworthy sight. But instead we get them bombing areas surrounding crashsite and msot importanly keeping attached to flight dispatchers silent shut. I mean, literally, was there ever a word or statement from ukrainian air space agency that was tracking flight? Aren't such reports vital to the investigation?[/QUOTE] As far as this "another jet in the area" theory goes, I'd explain it like that: they don't really want to admit that their military jet was "hiding" near passenger airliner, in its "radar shadow", so to speak.
[QUOTE=gudman;45468741]Yeah, that's what I'm believing as well. Rebels probably knew about Ukrainian jet in the area (whatever it was), but didn't know about airliner. Fired the missile at the jet, and their radars (or Russian long-range airport radars from Rostov tracking the plane, by accident) flew it into passenger plane instead. As it stands now, given all the evidence presented to the public, it seems to me as what most likely happened.[/QUOTE] But about trail and defence ministry's briefing? They mention ukranian buks moved in there aswell. I'd say we go as that wild dude in that reddit repost thing suggested and check all the wildest theories without exceptions.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45468632]yet would not explain why Ukranian military denies this. I'd say if they would speak of this right on spot they would be in far more trustworthy sight. But instead we get them bombing areas surrounding crashsite and msot importanly keeping attached to flight dispatchers silent shut. I mean, literally, was there ever a word or statement from ukrainian air space agency that was tracking flight? Aren't such reports vital to the investigation?[/QUOTE] If there is a cover up, most likely because it's incompetency on their part by flying combat missions too close to a civilian airflight corridor. Both sides making large errors of judgement, which ended with tragic results, does seem a likely cause at the moment.
[QUOTE=gudman;45468786]As far as this "another jet in the area" theory goes, I'd explain it like that: they don't really want to admit that their military jet was "hiding" near passenger airliner, in its "radar shadow", so to speak.[/QUOTE] but if that confirms somehow, won't that catch attention of world? I mean why cover up jet flying in rebel area if they fly there all the time? Would not that be a crucial witness and would erase any suspicion? Or you mean world would literally blame Ukraine for using living shield for jet immidiatly? [editline]23rd July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Camundongo;45468813]If there is a cover up, most likely because it's incompetency on their part by flying combat missions too close to a civilian airflight corridor. Both sides making large errors of judgement, which ended with tragic results, does seem a likely cause at the moment.[/QUOTE] Ironically it works other way around since it's Mh-17 course that was changed to fly in clearly not safe zone(wich is a really important question) - military jets go there all the time and thats why there are plenty of reports of shot down planes by rebels. Also here's RT article giving out ten questions published on that Defence Ministry Briefing (Ye ye RT is shit, well shut up), since that video of conference had not quite the best translator in the world. And before dumb rating ensues, [B]those are just translated questions and attached to them photos for those who were lazy to watch or unable to understand mentioned above video[/B] [url]http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/[/url] Btw, does anyone have access to [url]http://www.thestar.com.my/[/url] ? I can't load it for some reason and site was mentioned alot today in russian news regarding flight experts from Malaysia hiding from Ukraine bombing and crashsite investigation.
[QUOTE=Mbbird;45468784]Guys, I don't know if that theory is too strong considering Buks are guided through a semi-active cycle Wouldn't the Buk vehicle that fired it have to have intentionally shifted from the Su-25 to the 747[/QUOTE] It might have been that Buk was initially "aimed" at Boeing in confusion. If rebels didn't know about MH17 being there, they could've mistakenly track it instead of Ukrainian UFO (we don't know exactly what jet it was, briefing only made their pick due to some pattern and rough estimations of speed with which the signal climbing). They unlikely have command vehicle and had to improvise. And then again, Rostov airport's (or even Ukrainian airport's) secondary radar signals could've confused the rocket's targeting computer. This theory is mostly based on existing bias though, presumption that it is [b]highly unlikely[/b] that any one of the sides involved could intentionally bring down passenger airliner. If we throw that bias off the table, it's just an assumption not different from any other.
[QUOTE=gudman;45468982]It might have been that Buk was initially "aimed" at Boeing in confusion. If rebels didn't know about MH17 being there, they could've mistakenly track it instead of Ukrainian UFO (we don't know exactly what jet it was, briefing only made their pick due to some pattern and rough estimations of speed with which the signal climbing). They unlikely have command vehicle and had to improvise. And then again, Rostov airport's (or even Ukrainian airport's) secondary radar signals could've confused the rocket's targeting computer. This theory is mostly based on existing bias though, presumption that it is [b]highly unlikely[/b] that any one of the sides involved could intentionally bring down passenger airliner. If we throw that bias off the table, it's just an assumption not different from any other.[/QUOTE] And if we would try to assume that someone would do that on purpose? Cause like i said, maybe we should think of [B]all[/B] possibilities. Soo in retrospetive, who would gain something out of this situation and it's consequences? Cause soo far, there is new package of sanction being prepared against Russia, even without full proof of rebel's fault. Also, this is for russian users thought: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQs8_l2WuaY[/url] (basically guy points out fakery in that audio everyone repost once in a while) Also, for anyone interested, heeeere is US briefing regarding MH-17 (spoiler, there is no evidence) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/media] Boy this is laughtable. Tweets and questionable audio and "something else".
[QUOTE=gudman;45468474]They could've seen the plane, just [b]before[/b] it was hit or even chased by the missile. That's really interesting indeed how no one claimed to see smoke trail from a missile fired near at least two densely populated urban areas, Donetsk itself and multiple smaller villages and towns nearing it. Anyone knows how to check what weather was in the region during the event?[/QUOTE] Weather was apparently cloudy. [url]http://weatherspark.com/averages/33801/7/17/Donetsk-Donets-ka-Ukraine[/url]
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45469018] Boy this is laughtable. Tweets and questionable audio and "something else".[/QUOTE] What exactly makes this evidence laughable?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;45471410]What exactly makes this evidence laughable?[/QUOTE] US officials claimed to have data on exact location from where the missile was launched. And then - tweets, audio, youtube... No data released to the public at all. I personally don't get it.
[QUOTE=gudman;45473423]US officials claimed to have data on exact location from where the missile was launched. And then - tweets, audio, youtube... No data released to the public at all. I personally don't get it.[/QUOTE] It's just like MH370. No defence department wants to let their enemies know the capabilities of their surveillance networks.
[QUOTE=download;45473515]It's just like MH370. No defence department wants to let their enemies know the capabilities of their surveillance networks.[/QUOTE] Which is funny, because Russian Defense ministry briefing listed exact satellites and radar stations that could've picked up the signal (if they had it), their capabilities and purpose - publicly. There's absolutely no reason to not release the data publicly at this point.
what if the dissapeared MH370 is now the crashed MH17? :tinfoil:
[QUOTE=gudman;45473562]Which is funny, because Russian Defense ministry briefing listed exact satellites and radar stations that could've picked up the signal (if they had it), their capabilities and purpose - publicly. There's absolutely no reason to not release the data publicly at this point.[/QUOTE] Because they don't want to confirm they're correct? While everyone is sure the US has spy satellites with a resolution of a less than a metre if they actually confirm it they start a shitstorm. They'd prefer the Russian military to be unsure of their guesses and estimates. Also, citation needed.
[QUOTE=download;45473669]Because they don't want to confirm they're correct? While everyone is sure the US has spy satellites with a resolution of a less than a metre if they actually confirm it they start a shitstorm. They'd prefer the Russian military to be unsure of their guesses and estimates. Also, citation needed.[/QUOTE] Just lower the resolution/only used zoomed out versions of it. The chinese did for the mh370 so i don't see the issue with america doing it. Everybody knows they have satellites there's no harm in making people think "they have satellites which are better than this shit poor resolution photo we just received"
[QUOTE=download;45473669]Because they don't want to confirm they're correct? While everyone is sure the US has spy satellites with a resolution of a less than a metre if they actually confirm it they start a shitstorm. They'd prefer the Russian military to be unsure of their guesses and estimates. Also, citation needed.[/QUOTE] Google has spy satellites with a resolution of less than a meter :v:
Anyhow, here's some new info. black boxes arrived in britain under ICAO's watch, all secure and good [url]http://ria.ru/world/20140723/1017183845.html[/url] (translated article will be soon) And Russia handed over info from Defence ministry to EU commision. [url]http://en.ria.ru/world/20140723/191126347/Russia-Hands-Data-on-MH17-Crash-to-EC-Awaits-Reaction---Russias.html[/url] And any dispatcher report, flight info or anything from Ukraininan side has yet to be even published.
[QUOTE=download;45473669]Because they don't want to confirm they're correct? While everyone is sure the US has spy satellites with a resolution of a less than a metre if they actually confirm it they start a shitstorm. They'd prefer the Russian military to be unsure of their guesses and estimates. Also, citation needed.[/QUOTE] What shitstorm would be caused by confirmation of satellites that are designed to detect missile launches? Seriously. And if they really don't want to confirm something everyone already knows, why bring the stuff up at all? "We have evidence, but we won't give it to anyone, forget it. Take our word for it. All you're getting is youtube videos, tweets and blogposts". And what do you mean by the last part? About what?
I do hope world is going to finally snap out of "tweetbelievers" and try to atleast ask for some more official stated proof from those who oppose russian sources on case. And again, a question that still no one here asnwered for me - How will people react if it will be prooved that Ukraine Military is indeed guilty?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45474071]I do hope world is going to finally snap out of "tweetbelievers" and try to atleast ask for some more official stated proof from those who oppose russian sources on case. And again, a question that still no one here asnwered for me - How will people react if it will be prooved that Ukraine Military is indeed guilty?[/QUOTE] Uh let's wait and see?
[QUOTE=Apache249;45474097]Uh let's wait and see?[/QUOTE] yeah, I just wish this was a far more common reaction rather then "omg i saw three tweets and audio on youtube, blame da rebels'. also, what about my question?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45469018]And if we would try to assume that someone would do that on purpose? Cause like i said, maybe we should think of [B]all[/B] possibilities. Soo in retrospetive, who would gain something out of this situation and it's consequences? Cause soo far, there is new package of sanction being prepared against Russia, even without full proof of rebel's fault. Also, this is for russian users thought: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQs8_l2WuaY[/url] (basically guy points out fakery in that audio everyone repost once in a while) Also, for anyone interested, heeeere is US briefing regarding MH-17 (spoiler, there is no evidence) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/media] Boy this is laughtable. Tweets and questionable audio and "something else".[/QUOTE] So they're working with pictures that are 3 years old? [URL="http://vk.com/album-22680516_124376447"]http://vk.com/album-22680516_124376447[/URL] Look at the upload date of the supposed BUK-M1's in question, they were uploaded in '2011'. This [I]is[/I] laughable.
[QUOTE=Riller;45473901]Google has spy satellites with a resolution of less than a meter :v:[/QUOTE] Actually, the high-res images in Google Earth are taken by plane.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45474113]yeah, I just wish this was a far more common reaction rather then "omg i saw three tweets and audio on youtube, blame da rebels'. also, what about my question?[/QUOTE] If you're referring to this question [QUOTE]And again, a question that still no one here asnwered for me - How will people react if it will be prooved that Ukraine Military is indeed guilty?[/QUOTE] Then the answer is [QUOTE=Apache249;45474097]Uh let's wait and see?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=gudman;45474027]What shitstorm would be caused by confirmation of satellites that are designed to detect missile launches? Seriously. And if they really don't want to confirm something everyone already knows, why bring the stuff up at all? "We have evidence, but we won't give it to anyone, forget it. Take our word for it. All you're getting is youtube videos, tweets and blogposts". And what do you mean by the last part? About what?[/QUOTE] Releasing imagery from military satellites is generally not done because NATO wants to keep its imagery/surveillance capability under wraps. If the exact quality of US satellite imagery was known it would be a lot easier for their enemies to camouflage military sites. So far NATO's released satellite footage in this conflict has been taken by commercial satellites, so if none were overhead during the missile launch, then they may have to choose between revealing their imagery resolution or not being able to put up photographic evidence.
[QUOTE=iFail;45474402]Releasing imagery from military satellites is generally not done because NATO wants to keep its imagery/surveillance capability under wraps. If the exact quality of US satellite imagery was known it would be a lot easier for their enemies to camouflage military sites. So far NATO's released satellite footage in this conflict has been taken by commercial satellites, so if none were overhead during the missile launch, then they may have to choose between revealing their imagery resolution or not being able to put up photographic evidence.[/QUOTE] That makes sense, but why refer to evidence they can't release. Hoping people would take their word for it?
[QUOTE=gudman;45474414]That makes sense, but why refer to evidence they can't release. Hoping people would take their word for it?[/QUOTE] They try to show support to Ukrainan goverment and go desperate enough to agree accounting on anything that in some way blames rebels.
[QUOTE=gudman;45474414]That makes sense, but why refer to evidence they can't release. Hoping people would take their word for it?[/QUOTE] Yes. It's not hard to believe them, either. Their narrative is altogether simpler and easier to believe than the stuff that's been put out in opposition. The Russian media really blew it when they tried to claim it was shot down by a Ukrainian Su-25. First of all, it's harder to believe that the Ukrainians accidentally shot it down. There are no real reasons for Ukrainian air defense to be on high alert, since the separatists don't exactly have an air force. Furthermore, as a governmental entity, it's expected that they already have mechanisms in place to prevent accidental shoot-downs of civilian aircraft. With no pressing air threats, they should be able to either IFF interrogate with the radar unit, and if they operate any SA-11 launchers alone it's extremely implausible that they suddenly shoot a plane down given that plenty of planes flew over Ukraine without any problems. On the other hand, the separatists have already shot down multiple Ukrainian transports and clearly planned to shoot down more. If they had a SA-11 launcher and no radar unit, it's not hard to believe that irregulars mistook a airliner for a transport. Also, I find it somewhat implausible that the Ukrainians shot it down in some kind of false-flag attack. Their own government's ability to control the media message is extremely limited and their credibility is somewhat low without the support of NATO and the US. With that in mind, it's really not all that likely that they would just shoot down a plane to blame the separatists. Even if they got away with it, the most likely scenario would be that it's seen as an accident on the part of the separatists, who would claim the launcher was captured from Crimea. In the end the risk is extremely high and their benefit is extremely limited, seeing as Malaysia will take no real action. [editline]23rd July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=karimatrix;45474500]They try to show support to Ukrainan goverment and go desperate enough to agree accounting on anything that in some way blames rebels.[/QUOTE] It's hardly desperation. I have yet to see a more plausible account of what happened than the US position. Honestly speaking, the mass of contradictions and lies that have come from RT have only led people to completely dismiss the Russian media and most Russians out of hand.
[QUOTE=iFail;45474527]Yes. It's not hard to believe them, either. Their narrative is altogether simpler and easier to believe than the stuff that's been put out in opposition. The Russian media really blew it when they tried to claim it was shot down by a Ukrainian Su-25. First of all, it's harder to believe that the Ukrainians accidentally shot it down. There are no real reasons for Ukrainian air defense to be on high alert, since the separatists don't exactly have an air force. Furthermore, as a governmental entity, it's expected that they already have mechanisms in place to prevent accidental shoot-downs of civilian aircraft. With no pressing air threats, they should be able to either IFF interrogate with the radar unit, and if they operate any SA-11 launchers alone it's extremely implausible that they suddenly shoot a plane down given that plenty of planes flew over Ukraine without any problems. On the other hand, the separatists have already shot down multiple Ukrainian transports and clearly planned to shoot down more. If they had a SA-11 launcher and no radar unit, it's not hard to believe that irregulars mistook a airliner for a transport. Also, I find it somewhat implausible that the Ukrainians shot it down in some kind of false-flag attack. Their own government's ability to control the media message is extremely limited and their credibility is somewhat low without the support of NATO and the US. With that in mind, it's really not all that likely that they would just shoot down a plane to blame the separatists. Even if they got away with it, the most likely scenario would be that it's seen as an accident on the part of the separatists, who would claim the launcher was captured from Crimea. In the end the risk is extremely high and their benefit is extremely limited, seeing as Malaysia will take no real action. [editline]23rd July 2014[/editline] It's hardly desperation. I have yet to see a more plausible account of what happened than the US position. Honestly speaking, the mass of contradictions and lies that have come from RT have only led people to completely dismiss the Russian media and most Russians out of hand.[/QUOTE] Ummm more plausible then mention of tweets, questionable audio and no solid evidence? Okay. Here's many times mentioned Russian Defence Ministry briefing, and i would like to inform you that this info was jsut passed to EU commision, whenever nothing form US or Ukraine is even published. [QUOTE=karimatrix;45456619]Welp, this is.... getting heated up. [url]http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/[/url] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrhEzecCdTI[/media] [/QUOTE] Here are ten questions asked on that briefing that need to be answered [quote] Military officials – chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andrey Kartopolov and chief of the Air Force Main Staff Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev - posed a number of questions to Kiev and Washington concerning the possible causes of the catastrophe in Eastern Ukraine that killed almost 300 people last Thursday. [B]1. Why did the MH17 plane leave the international corridor?[/B] “Please note that the plane stayed within the corridor until it reached Donetsk but then it deviated from the route to the north,” said Kartopolov. [B] 2. Was MH17 leaving the route a navigation mistake or was the crew following instructions by Ukrainian air traffic controllers in Dnepropetrovsk? [/B]“The maximum deviation from the left border of the corridor was 14 km. Following that, we can see the plane maneuvering to return to the corridor, yet the Malaysian crew did not get a chance to complete the maneuver. At 17.20, the plane began to lose speed, and at 17.23 it disappeared from Russian radars.” [B] 3. Why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held area if the self-defense forces have no planes?[/B] “As far as we know, the Ukrainian military had three or four air defense battalions equipped with Buk-M1 SAM systems deployed in the vicinity of Donetsk on the day of the crash. This system is capable of hitting targets within the range of 35 km at the altitude of up to 22 km.” [img]http://rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/4.jpg[/img] Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014. (RIA Novosti)Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014. (RIA Novosti) [B]4. Why did Kiev deploy BUK missile systems on the edge of militia-controlled zones directly before the tragedy?[/B] “We have satellite photos of the places where Ukraine had its air defense units deployed in the southeastern parts of the country. The first three photos were made on July 14. The first photo shows Buk launchers 8 km northwest of Lugansk. You can clearly see a TELAR and two TELs. The second photo shows radars 5 km north of Donetsk. You can see two TARs along with other equipment and technical structures. The third photo shows air defense systems north of Donetsk. You can clearly see a TELAR launcher and about 60 military and auxiliary vehicles, tents for vehicles and other structures. “Here’s a photo of the same area made on July 17. Please note that the launcher has disappeared. The fifth photo shows a battery of Buk missiles at the village of Zaroshchenskoye 50 km east of Donetsk and 8 km south of Shakhtyorsk on the morning of the same day. The sixth photo shows the same area on July 18. As you can see, the battery has left.” [img]http://rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/5.jpg[/img] No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014. (RIA Novosti)No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014. (RIA Novosti) [B] 5. On the day of the crash Kiev intensified Kupol-M1 9S18 radar activity, key BUK system components. Why?[/B] “Also, July 17 saw increased activity on the part of Ukraine’s Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are part of the Buk system. Here on this chart you see that there were seven radars operating on July 15, eight radars operating on July 16, and nine radars operating on July 17 in the area. Then, starting with July 18, the intensity of radar activities radically decreased, and now there are no more than two or three radars operating a day. The reason behind this is yet to be found.” [B]6. What was a military plane doing on the route intended for civilian flights?[/B] “There were three civilian planes in the area performing their regular flights at this time. There was a flight from Copenhagen to Singapore at 17:17, there was a flight from Paris to Taipei at 17:24, and then there was the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.” “Also, Russian monitoring systems registered that there was a Ukrainian Air Force jet, probably Su-25, climbing and approaching the Malaysian Boeing.” “The Su-25 was 3-5 km away from the Malaysian plane. Su-25 is capable of climbing to the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short period of time. Its standard armament includes R60 air-to-air missiles, which are capable of locking and hitting targets from 12 km and which are guaranteed to hit the target from the distance of 5 km.” [img]http://rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/planes.jpg[/img] (RIA Novosti / Vadim Savitsky)(RIA Novosti / Vadim Savitsky) [B]7. Why was the military jet flying at so close to a passenger plane?[/B] “At 17:21’35, with [the Boeing’s] velocity having dropped to 200 kilometers per hour, a new mark detecting an airborne object appears at the spot of the Boeing’s destruction. This new airborne object was continuously detected for the duration of four minutes by the radar stations Ust-Donetsk and Buturinskaya. An air traffic controller requested the characteristics of the new airborne object, but was unable to get any readings on its parameters – most likely due to the fact that the new aircraft was not equipped with a secondary surveillance radar transponder, which is a distinctive feature of military aircraft,” said Makushev. “Detecting the new aircraft became possible as it started to ascend. Further changes in the airborne object’s coordinates suggest that it was hovering above the Boeing 777’s crash site, monitoring of the situation. “Ukrainian officials earlier claimed that there were no Ukrainian military aircraft in the area of the crash that day. As you can see, that is not true.” [B]8. Where did the launcher – from the video circulated by Western media and showing a Buk system being moved allegedly from Ukraine to Russia – come from? As the video was made on the territory controlled by Kiev, where was the launcher being transported?[/B] “I’d like to say that the information we have presented here is based on objective and reliable data from various technical systems – unlike the groundless accusations made against Russia,” said Kartopolov. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0[/media] “For example, media circulated a video supposedly showing a Buk system being moved from Ukraine to Russia. This is clearly a fabrication. This video was made in the town of Krasnoarmeisk, as evidenced by the billboard you see in the background, advertising a car dealership at 34 Dnepropetrovsk Street. Krasnoarmeysk has been controlled by the Ukrainian military since May 11.” [img]http://rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/map.jpg[/img] [B] 9. Where is it right now? Why are some of the missiles missing on the launcher? When was the last time a missile was launched from it?[/B] [img]http://rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/1.jpg[/img] Screenshot from video posted on Ukraine’s Ministry of Interior account, showing a Buk system supposedly being moved from Ukraine to Russia with two out of three missiles.Screenshot from video posted on Ukraine’s Ministry of Interior account, showing a Buk system supposedly being moved from Ukraine to Russia with two out of three missiles. [B] 10. Why haven’t US officials revealed the evidence supporting claims that the MH17 was shot down by a missile launched by the militia?[/B] “US officials claim they have satellite photographs proving the Malaysian airliner was shot down by a missile launched by the militia. But no one has seen these photographs so far. As far as we know, there was indeed a US satellite flying over southeastern Ukraine on July 17 from 17:06 to 17:21 Moscow time. “This satellite is part of an experimental system designed to track and monitor the launches of missiles of various ranges. If our US colleagues have imagery from this satellite, they should release it for the international community to examine it in detail. This may be a coincidence, but the US satellite flew over Ukraine at exactly the same time when the Malaysian airliner crashed.” Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense MinistryBuk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry [img]http://rt.com/files/news/2a/94/c0/00/snimok_ekrana_2014-07-21_v_18.47.57.png[/img][/quote] Also here is great read posted in this thread previously that also raises lots of questions. [quote]Somebody screwed up, this is common. We screwed up before in the 80s, Ukrainians screwed up in the early 2000 - so I would not put it beyond them to hit the plane thinking it was Russian, since their military seems to be very disorganized now. Rebels obviously could do it, not intentionally though as they do not stand to benefit. The maximum extent of Russian involvment on this could be Russia highlighting the plane on the radar for the rebels (since their Buk only had the launcher with primitive radar, it was not a full system which is 3 vehicles - commad, radar and launcher), which would be a major screw up on their part. Honestly right now noone knows what really happened there and noone ever will. I also don't like the fact that its seems like the guilty party has been "appointed" before the investigators ever got to the crash site, and that Obama and Poroshenko keep rambling on about "evidence" that they possess without showing any. So far the only pictures and radar information released come from Russia - and I find it odd that it gets dismissed as "Russia trying to cover up" and its not bigger news. You see this type of evidence is very, very hard to falsify. What was on Russian radars, was on NATO radars. If they say they saw a Su-25 next to the airplane, and two hours later NATO releases their radar info and there is no Su-25 - they are in deep shit. They also released radar information and sattelite pictures of Ukrainian Buks deployed in the area - if NATO comes up with the same pictures on same day but this stuff is not there, Russia is again in deep shit. But no, Russia actually asked US to release their pictures and radar data, stating that they never detected a launch by either of the parties - only Ukrainian SAM tracking the plane, and that they know that US spy sattelite was directly over the area when this happened. This means Russia is 100% confident in their information. Again, this is the first solid evidence I see - a cell phone video of a Buk SAM driving somewhere as "evidence" of it being taken across the border back to Russia is ridiculous - it could belong to anyone and be driven anywhere. Phone conversation intercepted does not conclude anything, these things can be doctored by anyone with a laptop, plus its not the same people talking - so it could easily be rebels talking about shooting down a Su-25 and looking for pilots in first half and the second half could be a cut from a different group at a different time finding the rubble of MH17. Again, I am not saying that it has been or that's what happened - but Ukraine has a Secret Service of its own, and if I was running it and some idiots in my military shot down that plane, that's what I would do - come up with a bunch of evidence blaming the other side, no matter how weak, knowing full well that since I am seen as a "the good guy" already noone will look into it too much, and the US will probably back me up and keep their mouth shut even if they know I did it. United States and NATO just need to release their radar information and sattelite pictures to international investigators, that's it. Russia has just done so. Of course, you can see that I am biased. But I am used to treating everything with a grain of salt. Russia (USSR) covered up Korean Airlines tragedy, so they cannot be trusted. Ukraine shot down Israeli Boeing before and denied involvement until Israel presented them pieces of plane with shrapnel holes, parts of the missile and radar data - so they cannot be trusted. I do not even speak of separatists. US and NATO cannot be trusted - they have their interests at stake in the region, plus after Iraq and the "evidence" there, with Collin Powel shaking a bottle with salt and calling it evidence of chemicale weapons, any evidence produced by US cannot be taken seriously. That is why I think we will never trully know what happened. The West will think Russia did, and Russia will think Ukraine did it, and everyone will be right and everyone will be wrong. EDIT: one point: Air to air missile hit is very easy to tell from a SAM hit, you do not need any expertise. Here is what airplane pieces sort of look like after S-200 hit them (I saw a bunch of practice targets and what happened to them): [url]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_59GYpEVAu0...00/pattern.JPG[/url] I have not seen air-to-air damage and don't really know how they work, but I venture to say its much smaller and less holes, relying more on the explosive part. So we will know that part soon enough. EDIT 2: Since this is getting a bit more attention, this is how I think investigation should be handled. Rather than immidiately state "We know the separatists are guilty, and we will not investigate the possibility of Ukrainian military being at fault" (which is what US state department did, hours after the plane crashed), all version should be taken into account, and they all should be checked and ruled out - even the implausible conspiracy ones. This is the only way to prevent conspiracy theories going on and on about it for the next 50 years. Also, the investigation should be done jointly by ICAO, Russia, Ukraine, Malaysia, Netherlands, NATO and the US. Based on what could possibly happen to the plane, the following versions need to be checked - in no particular order of importance. Again, I do not care if they sound crazy or unlikely: 1) Terrorist act. Mohammad al Jihad decided to blow himself up inside the plane while flying over Eastern Ukraine. 2) Malfunction/incident. Bird flew into engine, lighting bolt. Who knows. 3) NATO missile cruiser from the Black Sea (anything currently there that has the range?) 4) Separatist's Buk took it down. 5) Russian Black Sea fleet, in particular its flagship, Moskva - it can hit airplanes 200-250 km away. Was it in range? 6) Ukrainian Buk took it down. 7) Ukrainian S-300 took it down from far away. 8) Russian S-300 or S-400 took it down from around Rostov-on-Don region. 9) Ukrainian Air to Air missile from a military jet. 10) Russian Air to Air missile from a mlitary jet. That's about all I can think of. If you do not check them all you will have conspiracy nuts all over this for years. Again, I do not believe most of these are even remotely likely, but if it could possibly happen it must be investigated, no matter how unlikely or studpid it sounds. EDIT 3: Thanks for the gold! In a disappointing update, US State Dept. released a statement, basically saying that since Russia is known to spread misinformation and propaganda, and US is known to be honest, there is no need for US to respond to Russian request and reveal their evidence. It is enough for the world to know that US has the evidence that points at the separatists and Russians, and have trust in US intelligence agencies since they don't lie about things like this. I cannot believe the person saying it didn't burst out laughing in the middle. They can't seriously believe this shit. EDIT 4: Addressing the comment that US and NATO will not release information because this exposes their capabilities. Russia is very well aware of them. They even called out which spy satellite was over the area, and which NATO radars would have the info. Plus, somehow US was not too concerned about this during the past 20 years, when during every US conflict - Desert Storm, Kosovo, Iraq - we basically see "war on TV, now coming to you in HD!". This is a weak argument. EDIT 5: As a way to put out the conspiracy fire with gasoline (haha), I am now pondering on this: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDXScnEKaP0[/url] Buk missile leaves a 10 m wide smoke trail. A 10 m wide smoke trail, going up 10 km - and not vertically since it was chasing the plane, but also covering a few km horizontally. In a densely populated area. And noone saw a thing. Please let me know if I am oblivious of some locals reporting they saw the launch, but you simply cannot miss this thing going up. Again, sorry I sound like I am biased or spewing conspiracy/propaganda. I am not trying to. But this is a legitimate question to ask, is it not? Did everyone go blind all at once? If they saw the launch, where was it from? Are they too scared to talk? This is another question that investigators need to address.[/quote] And yes, i know that RT's report but you know what? Bite me. Cause those reports simply provide translation on briefing's topic and as Russian person living in Moscow I can confirm that their content is consistent with rest info from Russian sources regarding said Briefing, soo if you going to dumb rate it just for RT watermark, go ahead. Also here is RT article with nice confirmation of what was said previously, that video showing buk's transportation (as reported by Ukraine Media) is dated by March. Great read. [url]http://rt.com/news/174868-ukraine-buk-falsification-continues/[/url]
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