Refugees disagreeing about ramadan burn their center down. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50490550]My argument is that it's irrelevant whether or not it is permissible, as it is inevitable as shown time and time again throughout history. Why fight the tide? Just because you don't see yourself as belonging to your country or team or religion or tribe, others do, and you're in a weaker position without that group backing you up because you're busy pretending they don't exist or living under an assumption that members of foreign tribes are as welcome to your land as you. You're not welcome in their lands.[/QUOTE] that's the worst, most miserable argument that i've ever read on facepunch forums a) why is it inevitable? people thought racism was natural and inevitable, and that turned out to be disputed b) since when has something being supposedly 'inevitable' been a reason that people don't try and mitigate or solve it (see: every single quality of life improvement ever made) - death is "inevitable" but that doesn't mean doctors down tools when someone is dying, that doesn't mean that everyone stops trying to solve the problem or extend lifespans this is the worst laymans psuedo-psychology psuedo-analysis of me i've ever read you're literally arguing that human beings exist in a unchanging behavioral state, and that doing anything (such as the introduction of social taboos which ALREADY HAPPENS) is pointless considering that generalisation of people is already a taboo, and already illegal in a lot of countries when it comes to property etc (race blindness in law) and already not a problem in certain people, i don't think you're right

[QUOTE=Aphtonites;50486299]Sounds like they'd probably feel more at home at whatever northern African shithole they came from.[/QUOTE] Wherever they're from, it's probably more common to burn people and/or buildings.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50490588] a) why is it inevitable? people thought racism was natural and inevitable, and that turned out to be disputed[/QUOTE] It's inevitable because our brains find patterns, people are complex but they too follow patterns. To consider probabilities based on past experience is a sign of intelligence and whilst groups of people are complex, I don't see why groups can't be generalized in terms of behaviour. It's like you're fighting the way our brains work to be 'correct'. [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50490588] b) since when has something being supposedly 'inevitable' been a reason that people don't try and mitigate or solve it (see: every single quality of life improvement ever made) - death is "inevitable" but that doesn't mean doctors down tools when someone is dying, that doesn't mean that everyone stops trying to solve the problem [/QUOTE] It's usually more effective to swim with the current, than to do the usual human domination thing and attempt to impose what OUGHT to be rather than learn to live with how it is. Humans are well on their way to defeating death, but it will bite us in the ass when overpopulation gets significantly worse. [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50490588]this is the worst laymans psuedo-psychology i've ever read[/QUOTE] You should read more. [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50490588] you're literally arguing that human beings exist in a unchanging behavioral state, and that doing anything (such as the introduction of social taboos which ALREADY HAPPENS) is pointless[/QUOTE] I'm arguing our biological evolution has plateaued for now until cybernetics picks up speed, as such our inherited evolutionary behaviour has not changed significantly in a long while and only our cultural behaviour has mutated. No amount of iPads or denim jeans or regressive-left ideologies will stop me being a great ape.

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50490550]My argument is that it's irrelevant whether or not it is permissible, as it is inevitable as shown time and time again throughout history. Why fight the tide? Just because you don't see yourself as belonging to your country or team or religion or tribe, others do, and you're in a weaker position without that group backing you up because you're busy pretending they don't exist or living under an assumption that members of foreign tribes are as welcome to your land as you. You're not welcome in their lands.[/QUOTE] Imagine being a social darwinist after 1945

[QUOTE=Killuah;50490725]Imagine being a social darwinist after 1945[/QUOTE] Can you? If evolution applies to genetics, why does evolution not apply to memetics?

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50490690]It's inevitable because our brains find patterns, people are complex but they too follow patterns. To consider probabilities based on past experience is a sign of intelligence and whilst groups of people are complex, I don't see why groups can't be generalized in terms of behaviour. It's like you're fighting the way our brains work to be 'correct'. It's usually more effective to swim with the current, than to do the usual human domination thing and attempt to impose what OUGHT to be rather than learn to live with how it is. Humans are well on their way to defeating death, but it will bite us in the ass when overpopulation gets significantly worse. You should read more. I'm arguing our biological evolution has plateaued for now until cybernetics picks up speed, as such our inherited evolutionary behaviour has not changed significantly in a long while and only our cultural behaviour has mutated.[/QUOTE] I can't argue with your point about it being our first/most natural response and attitude. We are just glorified chimps. Expecting the worst, fearing the unknown, tribal and aggressive. But I think we can be better. Our society might have out evolved us but we can develop social and economic ways to deal with things. Using logic and things we've learnt. So we need to find new and logical ways to deal with things and not the amygdala's first response of "I trust nobody". We don't have to wait for cybernetics to become better than animals.

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50490732]Can you?[/QUOTE] No, I consider all humans to be "my tribe"

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50490690]It's inevitable because our brains find patterns, people are complex but they too follow patterns. To consider probabilities based on past experience is a sign of intelligence and whilst groups of people are complex, I don't see why groups can't be generalized in terms of behaviour. It's like you're fighting the way our brains work to be 'correct'. It's usually more effective to swim with the current, than to do the usual human domination thing and attempt to impose what OUGHT to be rather than learn to live with how it is. Humans are well on their way to defeating death, but it will bite us in the ass when overpopulation gets significantly worse. You should read more. I'm arguing our biological evolution has plateaued for now until cybernetics picks up speed, as such our inherited evolutionary behaviour has not changed significantly in a long while and only our cultural behaviour has mutated. It's impossible to do nothing, I don't know how you interpreted that from what I said.[/QUOTE] it's not "inevitable" that our brains find patterns, this is really strange fatalistic language you're using your argument for generalisation makes sense in the absence of reason, which isn't the case. For some reason you're determined to show that it's inevitable due to pattern-recognition that there will be racism or stereotyping, while ignoring the faculty that has been an incredible aid to humans have you been reading attenborough by any chance the argument here in the previous posts was that governments are justified in xenophobic policy because of generalisation innate in humans - that's an appeal to nature and wrong you're simply stating that it's inevitable - this doesn't mean anything in isolation. the argument you're making is that pattern forming is inevitable, pattern forming leads to racism/xenophobia ergo they are inevitable and that [I]we shouldn't do anything about it[/I] your last premise is flawed, because we frequently attempt to change things considered inevitable, your overpopulation example is a poor analogy because, to appeal to history/nature as you have already done, standard of living has improved as a result of our efforts, and thus the push against "inevitable" death has been a positive effort [I]that is being continued[/I] pattern forming leading to xenophobia/racism is also an unsupported premise because you're assuming that pattern forming naturally trends towards racism and xenophobia, which isn't necessarily true.

No Cloak lets just ignore that bascially all of humanities inventions and history is a result of pushing against the inevitable.

Society evolves beyond the limiations of human individuals, as is evident by everything you know. What may make sense in the context of an individual human being may not make sense in a social context. Generalisation is important and useful and natural, but not something to base national and international policy making on.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50490765]No Cloak lets just ignore that bascially all of humanities inventions and history is a result of pusing against the inevitable.[/QUOTE] it's the oddest argument in the world because it shows literally nothing if xenophobia and racism are inevitable because of generalisation, why [I]doesn't[/I] that happen? why doesn't this undefeatable faculty cause us to immediately generalise everyone outside of our "tribe" (whatever our tribe is) negatively? does this mean that generalisation is leading to more positive outlooks regarding other "tribes"? If so, doesn't this mean that generalisation is actually tending towards what is rapidly becoming the moral norm? if this is truly an invincible faculty in every human, why are the negative aspects of the process of generalisation actually falling out of social interaction in the modern day?

I'm really happy my mother trained me to use the potty and not just let me shit byself because "It's inevitable" Imagine having this dumb backward opinion of "tribes" and automatic exclusion because "pattern recognition is inevitable" when basically all that makes up humanity is dependent on our self recognition and especially the "pattern recognition" enabeling us to build complex social structures. What a sad and lonely guy

You can only talk about tribes if you live somewhere desolated in an actual tribe. Otherwise you make yourself look like a tool.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50490805] if this is truly an invincible faculty in every human, why are the negative aspects of the process of generalisation actually falling out of social interaction in the modern day?[/QUOTE] Conditioning since birth based on fear of persecution. "Stamp out racism!" is a veiled physical threat to the hypothetical racist and a suggestion of action to the groupthinkers. [QUOTE=rndgenerator;50490857]You can only talk about tribes if you live somewhere desolated in an actual tribe. Otherwise you make yourself look like a tool.[/QUOTE] I can talk about what I want! What is with you continentals telling me how I should think and talk?

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50490859]Conditioning since birth based on fear of persecution. "Stamp out racism!" is a veiled physical threat to the hypothetical racist and a suggestion of action to the groupthinkers. I can talk about what I want! What is with you continentals telling me how I should think and talk?[/QUOTE] No man his post meant that it makes you look like a tool, not how you should think and talk. You've got to read the two sentences in connection to each other.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50490881]No man his post meant that it makes you look like a tool, not how you should think and talk. You've got to read the two sentences in connection to each other.[/QUOTE] So I should watch which of my opinions I voice for fear of being judged by the tribe? Strange a German would hold such a view.

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50490903]So I should watch which of my opinions I voice for fear of being judged by the tribe? Strange a German would hold such a view.[/QUOTE] If you indeed lived in a tribe you'd be exiled I bet.

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50490903]So I should watch which of my opinions I voice for fear of being judged by the tribe? Strange a German would hold such a view.[/QUOTE] No you just honestly look like a tool to most people when posting [quote]Just because you don't see yourself as belonging to your country or team or religion or tribe, others do, and you're in a weaker position without that group backing you up because you're busy pretending they don't exist or living under an assumption that members of foreign tribes are as welcome to your land as you. You're not welcome in their lands.[/quote] You're not judged "by the tribe" or "by the continentals", you're judged by anyone who can make the connection that social groups and societies are not "tribes"

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50490859]Conditioning since birth based on fear of persecution. "Stamp out racism!" is a veiled physical threat to the hypothetical racist and a suggestion of action to the groupthinkers. I can talk about what I want! What is with you continentals telling me how I should think and talk?[/QUOTE] That's interesting! So what you're saying is, [B]it isn't inevitable because conditioning stops the negative aspects of generalisation?[/B] [editline]10th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=th0rianite;50490903]Strange a German would hold such a view.[/QUOTE] oh boy ok i think we're finished here also spitting continentals like an insult. amazing

[QUOTE=Tudd;50487239]Be better to fund the willing nearby countries [/QUOTE] What the hell do you think is happening? EU and VN is paying billions to turkey and other border country's to allow for refugees to stay there. The percentage that is traveling to Europe is below 10%. [QUOTE=Tudd;50487239] Right now the system is a joke that actually is going to cause more problems then it solves. [/QUOTE] The only information concerning refugees that is newsworthy is negative. So Im not surprised people think its a gigantic fuckup. However, it really isnt. besides the fact that the application process is very slow. Most people who dont belong here do get send back.

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50490464]If you think humans have evolved past a tribal mentality, you are wrong. We're the same creatures we are today as we were then. We may have advanced culturally, but fundamentally things have not changed. Look at the groupthink fanaticism evoked by sports teams, religion, nationalism. We're tribal apes and to pretend otherwise shows you're failing to see the wood for the trees. You create a false dichotomy between tribalism and law and order when they are actually the same thing but at different stages of maturity. You may be an evolved advanced citizen of Earth, but the rest of the world has allegiance to their tribe. Why do you not?[/QUOTE] No, you are wrong. People are definitely not the same as they were back then because of the socialisation we receive. We know for a fact today that the environment interacts with a persons genetic profile which then shapes different types of behavioral outcomes. You're basically thinking like Freud while ignoring the scientific consensus and all the biogenetic studies which prove otherwise. [QUOTE=th0rianite;50490903]Strange a German would hold such a view.[/QUOTE] Oh I'm german too so just disregard what I just said

[QUOTE=Killuah;50490915]No you just honestly look like a tool to most people when posting [/QUOTE] Ah, I see you speak for most people.

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50491029]Ah, I see you speak for most people.[/QUOTE] He's not wrong

You sound pretty sheltered calling people "continentals" and making such distinction between where people were born. If you traveled around the world a bit you'd see that there's not a big difference between humans, just between the regimes they live in.

[QUOTE=The Saiko;50491080]You sound pretty sheltered calling people "continentals" and making such distinction between where people were born. If you traveled around the world a bit you'd see that there's not a big difference between humans, just between the regimes they live in.[/QUOTE] Not where people were born, but what groups they belong to. I have indeed traveled the world and seen some other cultures, how they are similar to mine and how they differ. You are continentals living on the continent are you not? [QUOTE=rndgenerator;50491079]He's not wrong[/QUOTE] You must be most people, then.

[QUOTE=th0rianite;50491100]Not where people were born, but what groups they belong to. I have indeed traveled the world and seen some other cultures, how they are similar to mine and how they differ. You are continentals living on the continent are you not?[/QUOTE] ...so when did I make the decision to be part of the group of continentals ? How is that not literally where I was born

[QUOTE=The Saiko;50491115]...so when did I make the decision to be part of the group of continentals ? How is that not literally where I was born[/QUOTE] Social contract signed by your parents upon your birth, you could have been born in India for all I know. What I do know is that now you are a Continental if you live there.

[QUOTE=Egevened;50489898]except the majority of people advocating not letting the refugees in are not afraid of terrorism or them burning down churches, it is economically unsustainable[/QUOTE] I think a good number of people here struggle with this.

[QUOTE=karlosfandango;50491123]I think a good number of people here struggle with this.[/QUOTE] I don't get how I'm supposed to take the "economically unsustainable" argument at face value with nothing to back it up when we're talking about the economically most well-off continent in the world :v:

[QUOTE=Firewarrior;50490163]So suddenly it's supposed to have gone down by 18%? Yet a report from about 2015 has shown a huuuuge (year-by-year) increase in crimes done by non-Germans, with Syrians now representing about 14-15% of all crimes done by non-Germans (overtaking the Turks), our largest immigrant-group.. I'll post the proper stats when I'm at home later today or tomorrow, but the headline "immigrants arwn't any more criminal than native Germans" is so damn wrong it's almost funny.[/QUOTE] I didn't bite on it because it isn't conclusive, it doesn't show any crime figures for Germans to be able to compare. It's so biased it's not credible.