Goldsmiths Students' Union diversity officer explains she cannot be racist or sexist because she is - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Ekalektik_1;47772303]Look, dude, all we're saying is that there are people who use 'cis' as an insult. Of course it's a real word, almost all racial slurs are real words too. Being a real word doesn't mean it can't be offensive. From what I've seen, and I'm willing to accept that I may be misinterpreting you, your argument is that cis is a word in the dictionary, therefore we shouldn't be upset about it/it has no offensive connotations, which is just flat-out wrong.[/QUOTE] no. my argument is that it's silly to get upset people using it in a negative fashion.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;47772320]no. my argument is that it's silly to get upset people using it in a negative fashion.[/QUOTE] But you don't think it's silly to use other words in an insulting fashion and you'd go after them for using words you deem offensive Seems pretty flimsy to me.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47772345]But you don't think it's silly to use other words in an insulting fashion and you'd go after them for using words you deem offensive Seems pretty flimsy to me.[/QUOTE] in the grand scheme of things, is discrimination against cis people a tantamount issue? no. are you an asshole for using 'cis' in a negative way? absolutely. but is it really worth getting upset at a small group of people doing so? no. also please show out where i'm doing this. i don't see it. don't put words into my mouth tia

[QUOTE=Ownederd;47772372]in the grand scheme of things, is discrimination against cis people a tantamount issue? no. are you an asshole for using 'cis' in a negative way? absolutely. but is it really worth getting upset at a small group of people doing so? no. also please show out where i'm doing this. i don't see it. don't put words into my mouth tia[/QUOTE] is telling someone that them using cis as an insult makes them an asshole considered getting upset?

[QUOTE=Ekalektik_1;47772303]Look, dude, all we're saying is that there are people who use 'cis' as an insult. Of course it's a real word, almost all racial slurs are real words too. Being a real word doesn't mean it can't be offensive. From what I've seen, and I'm willing to accept that I may be misinterpreting you, your argument is that cis is a word in the dictionary, therefore we shouldn't be upset about it/it has no offensive connotations, which is just flat-out wrong.[/QUOTE] Nobody uses 'cis' as an insult though. The insult is 'cis scum'. This isn't the same situation as with racial slurs like 'negro' which, while etymologically being purely descriptive, were always used in a derogatory manner because [I]people just didn't talk about people of color in a neutral, non-racist fashion[/I]. 'Cis' is only part of an insult in a very specific context as used by a very small amount of people. It's not reasonable to assume someone means to insult you when they talk about cis people. But when you say 'faggot', which is what this discussion started with, that's probably what you're trying to do.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;47772372]in the grand scheme of things, is discrimination against cis people a tantamount issue? no. are you an asshole for using 'cis' in a negative way? absolutely. but is it really worth getting upset at a small group of people doing so? no. also please show out where i'm doing this. i don't see it. don't put words into my mouth tia[/QUOTE] You'd stop someone from using the word faggot, rightfully so, because that's a harmful perjorative. But, no matter how many people considered "cis" to be offensive, to be upset about it in your opinion is worthless. Why? And who are you to determine what is or isn't worth thinking about when it comes to pejoratives? [editline]21st May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=DrTaxi;47772404]Nobody uses 'cis' as an insult though. The insult is 'cis scum'. This isn't the same situation as with racial slurs like 'negro' which, while etymologically being purely descriptive, were always used in a derogatory manner because [I]people just didn't talk about people of color in a neutral, non-racist fashion[/I]. 'Cis' is only part of an insult in a very specific context as used by a very small amount of people. It's not reasonable to assume someone means to insult you when they talk about cis people. But when you say 'faggot', which is what this discussion started with, that's probably what you're trying to do.[/QUOTE] So it's use in the phrase "Cis scum" is unimportant? Is it not the term that determines who is "Scum"? Seems mildly more important than you think it is.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47772421]You'd stop someone from using the word faggot, rightfully so, because that's a harmful perjorative. But, no matter how many people considered "cis" to be offensive, to be upset about it in your opinion is worthless. Why? And who are you to determine what is or isn't worth thinking about when it comes to pejoratives?[/QUOTE] no one has any business in using 'cis' as a insult. it's just that people who actually use it like that have no real bearing in the whole world of what it means to be progressive and all i don't see the merit in enabling them or giving them any attention

[QUOTE=Ownederd;47772433]no one has any business in using 'cis' as a insult. it's just that people who actually use it like that have no real bearing in the whole world of what it means to be progressive and all[/QUOTE] Aren't your muscles getting tired from moving all these goalposts around?

Not what I was trying to say (though the people who use 'cis scum' tend to defend it by saying "actually it means 'the group of cis people who are scum', not 'all cis people, as all cis people are scum'", not that I'd agree with them in that that makes it okay). My point is that only the context makes it an insult. As in "die cis scum", or "ugh CIS PEOPLE >:(". Normally it's just used to distinguish, well, cis people from trans people. Completely without any assignment of value.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;47772433]no one has any business in using 'cis' as a insult. it's just that people who actually use it like that have no real bearing in the whole world of what it means to be progressive and all i don't see the merit in enabling them or giving them any attention[/QUOTE] i think that calling them out on it like "hey its still not cool to insult people for their gender even if they are cis" would go a lot further than ignoring it

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47772500]i think that calling them out on it like "hey its still not cool to insult people for their gender even if they are cis" would go a lot further than ignoring it[/QUOTE] not gonna deny that it's important to address it ofc

[QUOTE=Ownederd;47772506]not gonna deny that it's important to address it ofc[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]but is it really worth getting upset at a small group of people doing so? no.[/QUOTE] Really? Seems like a pretty flat out way of saying it's not important enough to address.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47772550]Really? Seems like a pretty flat out way of saying it's not important enough to address.[/QUOTE] is it important for these people to realize that they're wrong somehow? yes. but, like i said, if i'm going to put in effort in worrying about things that are majorly relevant i'm just not gonna worry about stuff that's so small

[QUOTE=Ownederd;47772569]is it important for these people to realize that they're wrong somehow? yes. but, like i said, if i'm going to put in effort in worrying about things that are majorly relevant i'm just not gonna worry about stuff that's so small[/QUOTE] Some would argue a culmination of all the small things can be just as relevant as the big things.

It's literally the trans version of heterosexual, cis is needed with trans, you can't have trans without cis since they only mean the opposite of each other, people getting offended by cis is as silly as getting offended by hetro, it's a needed and valid term used to describe someone who isn't trans. What word would you rather have for non trans people?

[QUOTE=Ripmax;47772654]It's literally the trans version of heterosexual, cis is needed with trans, you can't have trans without cis since they only mean the opposite of each other, people getting offended by cis is as silly as getting offended by hetro, it's a needed and valid term used to describe someone who isn't trans. What word would you rather have for non trans people?[/QUOTE] It not about people getting offeded, it's people using it in an offensive way.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47772550]Really? Seems like a pretty flat out way of saying it's not important enough to address.[/QUOTE] It's important to address but not something worse getting upset about like having a cold is important to address but not worth getting upset about

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;47772658]It not about people getting offeded, it's people using it in an offensive way.[/QUOTE] It's not being used in an offensive way specificity, "die cis scum" cis is the identifier and scum is the insult/offensive word, in the same way "die white scum" white is the identifier to the group they are trying to insult and scum is the actual insult.

[QUOTE=DrTaxi;47772483]Not what I was trying to say (though the people who use 'cis scum' tend to defend it by saying "actually it means 'the group of cis people who are scum', not 'all cis people, as all cis people are scum'", not that I'd agree with them in that that makes it okay). My point is that only the context makes it an insult. As in "die cis scum", or "ugh CIS PEOPLE >:(". Normally it's just used to distinguish, well, cis people from trans people. Completely without any assignment of value.[/QUOTE] i know nobody is defending the use of cis scum here, but the "nooo we mean the cis people who are scum, not that all cis are scum" really annoys me because in afaik every instance of (noun) scum, it means that the noun is scum, but suddenly the definition changes when it would make someone a bigot if they used it that way. [editline]21st May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Ripmax;47772713]It's not being used in an offensive way specificity, "die cis scum" cis is the identifier and scum is the insult/offensive word, in the same way "die white scum" white is the identifier to the group the are trying to insult and scum is the actual insult.[/QUOTE] if someone says "die rebel scum" or "die nazi scum", they aren't saying rebel and nazi as a singular identifier, rather saying the entire group fits underneath the scum category as well as whoever you're directing it at [editline]21st May 2015[/editline] like, if it goes by that then people who say cis scum should have no problem with people saying trans scum, but they do because by using (noun) scum you're heavily implying that all (noun) are scum no matter what your actual intent is

[QUOTE=ossumsauce;47739087]Its used by the LGBT community as a catch all term for "Not white, not cis, not straight". But if you're not IN the LGBT community and use the term queer, be warned, you instantly become "the oppressor". I know first hand. I'm in the community, and i used the term queer. Because i am a white male, i was automatically assumed to be straight as well and was lectured at about how only the LGBT community can use it. The look on their face when i told them i was Bi. Will fill me with joy for the rest of my days.[/QUOTE] if we're going to judge the attitude of an entire fucking group based on one experience then i might as well give my take there was a lgbt group at my highschool who were trying to make queer non derogatory. there was a few straight white people there who said the word queer, no one gave a shit because of who they said it i'm legitimately offended by your post because you're using a [B]single experience[/B] to judge a [B]large group[/B] of people like imagine if i met one bisexual who wanted everyone's dick and/or vagina and then made a judgement saying bisexuality is just a word to describe bunch of sex addicts, that would be really dumb right?

in any case, insulting someone for their gender is a terrible thing to do and should never be excusable

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47772759]i know nobody is defending the use of cis scum here, but the "nooo we mean the cis people who are scum, not that all cis are scum" really annoys me because in afaik every instance of (noun) scum, it means that the noun is scum, but suddenly the definition changes when it would make someone a bigot if they used it that way. [editline]21st May 2015[/editline] if someone says "die rebel scum" or "die nazi scum", they aren't saying rebel and nazi as a singular identifier, rather saying the entire group fits underneath the scum category as well as whoever you're directing it at [editline]21st May 2015[/editline] like, if it goes by that then people who say cis scum should have no problem with people saying trans scum, but they do because by using (noun) scum you're heavily implying that all (noun) are scum no matter what your actual intent is[/QUOTE] They are insulting the group but the point is "cis" isn't the offensive term, for example "faggot" is both the identifier and the insult where with cis it's just the identifier.

[QUOTE=Ripmax;47772816]They are insulting the group but the point is "cis" isn't the offensive term, for example "faggot" is both the identifier and the insult where with cis it's just the identifier.[/QUOTE] yeah i just got that that was the point of your post. i guess it is kind of like jew in that how benign and insulting it is depends on the context and tone it is used in. like "oh, he's a jew" isn't insulting but "ugh fucking jews" could be seen as insulting

the hypocrisy here is fucking insane everyone loses their shit when a woman says something along the lines "all men are shit" because lets be honest it affects you guys obviously, it affects me too because i'm actually a dude fyi no one bats an eye at the post assuming that lgbt groups go insane when a non lgbt person says queer and that queer means "Not white, not cis, not straight", in fact people support that post!!!!

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;47772869]the hypocrisy here is fucking insane everyone loses their shit when a woman says something along the lines "all men are shit" because lets be honest it affects you guys obviously, it affects me too because i'm actually a dude fyi no one bats an eye at the post assuming that lgbt groups go insane when a non lgbt person says queer and that queer means "Not white, not cis, not straight", in fact people support that post!!!![/QUOTE] It's an unfortunate side effect of people listening to the loud minority.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;47772914]It's an unfortunate side effect of people listening to the loud minority.[/QUOTE] before anyone says anything else, i seriously hope no one focuses the blame on the loud minority. It's both sides, the people who are batshit insane also ruin it, but the people who actually listen to the fool. im sure there's an quote out there about how you're a bigger fool for listening to the fool but I can't find one so i'm just going to have to make this post longer by explaining i don't have a quote about how [B]it's fucking dumb it is to listen to the extremists[/B]. like im almost going to have to say it's almost on par to using this woman's logic about how you can't be racist/sexist because you're a minority. if someone takes this woman seriously by saying "She's right", "all women are like this", "all feminists are like this", or something similar, then that person is an idiot. [editline]21st May 2015[/editline] think of it as me saying that all left-wingers are communist and all right-wingers are hitler. it's just as fucking stupid

i think one problem is that the extremists are the ones most likely to try spreading their message to the uninitiated, and thus may be many peoples' only experience with the whole thing, and i can't really fault someone for having a negative impression and not looking deeper into something if their only experience is being insulted and such

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47773000]i think one problem is that the extremists are the ones most likely to try spreading their message to the uninitiated, and thus may be many peoples' only experience with the whole thing, and i can't really fault someone for having a negative impression and not looking deeper into something if their only experience is being insulted and such[/QUOTE] maybe im insensitive but I'm going to have to say it's their fault if they're not looking deeper into the problem and making a judgement at face value. for christ sakes when i was 12 I was smarter than that to make a judgement on an entire group of people, so was everyone else. for example there was a muslim in my class, I was friend with him, but he suddenly stopped liking me and then humiliated me. He wanted to be a gangster. I didn't think "oh all muslims must be like that" I thought "man this guy is a fuckface"

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;47773030]maybe im insensitive but I'm going to have to say it's their fault if they're not looking deeper into the problem and making a judgement at face value. for christ sakes when i was 12 I was smarter than that to make a judgement on an entire group of people, so was everyone else. for example there was a muslim in my class, I was friend with him, but he suddenly stopped liking me and then humiliated me. He wanted to be a gangster. I didn't think "oh all muslims must be like that" I thought "man this guy is a fuckface"[/QUOTE] if they judge after one encounter then yeah they're dumb, but i'm not necessarily saying they'll judge it after one encounter, rather they may just not bother to look into it and go about their day. and then it happens again, and they remember the first time, and judgment starts forming. a few more negative experiences without any positive experiences to balance it out and you have someone who has a negative opinion of the entire thing, and they may never feel like looking into it because "well the last few people talking about this were fucking jerks so why should i even bother?"