• Trump plans week-long focus on infrastructure, starting with privatizing air traffic control
    42 replies, posted
Canada has privatised ATC and it's fucking great. I hate flying down to small US strips because 70% of the time there isn't enough people manning the tower on the ground and you have like 1 guy trying to dictate 5 people in the circuit w/ people on the ground too... I've had to fly to airports with sizeable traffic and 0 shit on the ground at times. Having a guy in front of you and behind you and guys trying to get off the runway too without anyone on the ground to help out sucks majorly and can be scary, especially at night. Navcanada is the best thing to ever happen to north american aviation, and is the primary reason why Canadian airports are at the cutting edge of aviation service... While the US lags super far behind. Talking as a pilot from a light aircraft (2-10 seats, twin engine or single) point of view here, but privatising ATC is probably the best idea Trump has ever fucking had. Navcanada is a great not for profit corporation. Trump wants the FAA to be a non for profit corporation. I am 100% on board for the FAA to be freed of a lot of government bureaucracy. Anyone that says this is bad frankly has no fucking idea what they're talking about. Ask literally any experienced private pilot if they'd rather fly to a small canadian airport or a small US one lmao. [editline]5th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Saxon;52312960]I'm worried the privatization of air traffic control will lead to less prioritization of safety and more on efficiency, not everything needs to be run as a business.[/QUOTE] Read the article, it'll be a not-for-profit corporation. FAA and its systems needed to be brought in to the 21st century about 20 years ago. [editline]5th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=cccritical;52312726]Seems like a terrible idea. Privatization means cutting overhead means skimping on training, letting equipment lapse, shooting from the hip. Usually I'm pretty 50-50 on privatization, but I cannot see ATC corporations ending well in any way. Especially not if their startup costs are paid for by the government, just give that money to the FAA and followup with audits if you're worried it won't go where it needs to. Jesus Christ.[/QUOTE] Navcanada is the obvious analog for this - none of this has happened with Navcanada. Especially that training part... From the Canadian controllers I've talked to, they literally spend literally 3+ years controlling simulations before they're given a seat in a real tower. Keep in mind that Navcanada is another privately run, not for profit corporation.
[QUOTE=MrRalgoman;52313146]Well yeah sure, I get cross state bridges and interstates/freeways that span multiple States. But everything else is handled by the State's DOT right? Oregon's DOT is in the process of filling a shit ton of potholes in Portland caused by the abnormal amount of snow and cold temperatures this year, they aren't calling in the feds...[/QUOTE] They did declare a state of emergency though lol The i5 bridge is awful too
[QUOTE=Sheer Visor;52314086]Canada has privatised ATC and it's fucking great. I hate flying down to small US strips because 70% of the time there isn't enough people manning the tower on the ground and you have like 1 guy trying to dictate 5 people in the circuit w/ people on the ground too... I've had to fly to airports with sizeable traffic and 0 shit on the ground at times. Having a guy in front of you and behind you and guys trying to get off the runway too without anyone on the ground to help out sucks majorly and can be scary, especially at night. Navcanada is the best thing to ever happen to north american aviation, and is the primary reason why Canadian airports are at the cutting edge of aviation service... While the US lags super far behind. Talking as a pilot from a light aircraft (2-10 seats, twin engine or single) point of view here, but privatising ATC is probably the best idea Trump has ever fucking had. Navcanada is a great not for profit corporation. Trump wants the FAA to be a non for profit corporation. I am 100% on board for the FAA to be freed of a lot of government bureaucracy. Anyone that says this is bad frankly has no fucking idea what they're talking about. Ask literally any experienced private pilot if they'd rather fly to a small canadian airport or a small US one lmao. [editline]5th June 2017[/editline] Read the article, it'll be a not-for-profit corporation. FAA and its systems needed to be brought in to the 21st century about 20 years ago. [editline]5th June 2017[/editline] Navcanada is the obvious analog for this - none of this has happened with Navcanada. Especially that training part... From the Canadian controllers I've talked to, they literally spend literally 3+ years controlling simulations before they're given a seat in a real tower. Keep in mind that Navcanada is another privately run, not for profit corporation.[/QUOTE] This is great and all but there are two distinguishing issues: - Would you put faith in a GOP-led effort to privatize any aspect of government and leave it still standing afterwards? - Do you genuinely believe that cost-cutting will be performed while also managing to improve coverage? The GOP loves to spin privatization efforts as saving government money then they all just happen to have invested in the industry and they all happen to make money as it wastes even more taxpayer dollars. Why would this be any different? Until they actually publish their plans and prove that it will work instead of making vague promises like "there will be money", it is worth taking it with a heaping helping of salt.
privatizing ATC is.....not a horrible idea actually, unlike 99.9% of Trump's other ones. it works very very good in countries like Canada, and I can tell you based on what my pilot friends have said that the FAA absolutely cannot reign in ATC and the whole system is a complete mess
[QUOTE=FFStudios;52315000]privatizing ATC is.....not a horrible idea actually, unlike 99.9% of Trump's other ones. it works very very good in countries like Canada, and I can tell you based on what my pilot friends have said that the FAA absolutely cannot reign in ATC and the whole system is a complete mess[/QUOTE] It may work well in countries where their government pays for the airlines. In the US its not going to work like that. It wont be of the same percieved quality and safety will plummet. Think like net neutrality but apply it to the airlines. Certain airlines are going to get preference over others because they pay the ATC more money than the others. Let NextGen do its thing before we start having this conversation. Or maybe fund the cash-strapped FAA. Thats a wild idea.
[QUOTE=MrRalgoman;52312853]Isn't that the State's issue?[/QUOTE] Partly. The federal government sends them money for transportation, and then states for some too. In most cases the money is from the petrol tax if we're talking roads and bridges, which is levied by both by the state and federal government with the latter's tax being much bigger. It's actually one way the federal government keeps the drinking age at 21. States are allowed to set it on their own but if you have the fucking gall to lower it they'll cut your transportation funding.
I really fail to see the benefit of privatizing ATC, at the very least it'd add in leagues more unneccesary oversight and time wasted. I know people blast govt for red-tape and slowness, but you know what's even slower and worse? Govt-contracts (see Boeing & Lockheed). Some of these ATC companies will fall behind, get bought up buy larger ATC companies and slowly move towards consolidation of one large ATC company like agar.io. At that point we'll be back were we started, just with alot more oversight, no guarantee of improvement, and ATC rates going up because of profits. Not everything needs to be run as a business, its a civil service hence why we have tax dollars in the first place.
[QUOTE=cccritical;52312726]Seems like a terrible idea. There's a SHIT ton that goes into ATC, for obvious reasons. It's insanely strictly regulated, and even after you get the job you could lose it for one dumb mistake - because one dumb mistake is all that's keeping, say, a Boeing 747 and a Cessna Citation from slamming into each other two thousand feet above a busy airport. Air traffic controllers need to know the FAA JO 7110.65 (currently version W change 3), the Navair 00-80T-114, all the applicable parts of the 14 CFR, their facility's Letters of Agreement with other facilities and its own facility manual, all like the back of their hands. Privatization means cutting overhead means skimping on training, letting equipment lapse, shooting from the hip. Usually I'm pretty 50-50 on privatization, but I cannot see ATC corporations ending well in any way. Especially not if their startup costs are paid for by the government, just give that money to the FAA and followup with audits if you're worried it won't go where it needs to. Jesus Christ. [editline]4th June 2017[/editline] I didn't even get to the part where folks are complaining about ground-based radar - seriously?? It's not perfect, but it's far from imprecise or operationally incapable. Switching whole hog to GPS would be catastrophic. Little VFR guys will go unseen by TRACON, unless literally 100% of the aircraft in the US upgrade their electronics, which seems pretty horrifically inefficient. Plus, there go ASR and PAR landings - hope that regional jet made in the 70s being flown by an overworked exhausted pilot is cool with an ILS in bad weather conditions. Especially considering the changes just made to visual landing clearances. Ridiculous.[/QUOTE] Actually, By 2020, all Aircraft in the US need to have ADS-B equipped. Which is essentially GPS, It allows all aircraft and ATC tower equipped with it to see each other. All commercial airliners come with it straight out of the factory. And all existing aircrafts need to have it installed by then or esle they lose their airworthiness. I've seen a ADS-B system, it's a tiny computer connected glass touch screen, and a antenna mounted on the fuselage, when turned on, it tells you all aircraft in the vicinity, gives you heading, airspeed, and altitude of every aircraft with that system installed. The system costs about 200$, which is dirt cheap in this industry. Best part is you don't need to upgrade your 1970 Cessna 150 entire flight panel, you can use your IPad or any electronic with a touchscreen. Also, to correct you a bit, 90% of the regional airliners still flying are not from the 70s, a lot of them are modern bombardiers and embrears built from 2000 onwards with glass cockpits. Any airliner from the 70s is either cannibalized for parts or recycled into soda cans. I won't lie and say that the pilots are not tired, we are facing a pilot shortage. Btw, you work in the aviation industry? Be nice to know someone else in this area of work.
So it's nearly the end of the week, we're all still focused on infrastructure right?
[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52327177]So it's nearly the end of the week, we're all still focused on infrastructure right?[/QUOTE] Yeah I know my infrastructure is already way improved and focused-on thanks to Trump's meaningless pledge on the topic!
[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52327177]So it's nearly the end of the week, we're all still focused on infrastructure right?[/QUOTE] Trump has a very short attention span, it's comey week now
[QUOTE=Sheer Visor;52314086]Canada has privatised ATC and it's fucking great. I hate flying down to small US strips because 70% of the time there isn't enough people manning the tower on the ground and you have like 1 guy trying to dictate 5 people in the circuit w/ people on the ground too... I've had to fly to airports with sizeable traffic and 0 shit on the ground at times. Having a guy in front of you and behind you and guys trying to get off the runway too without anyone on the ground to help out sucks majorly and can be scary, especially at night. Navcanada is the best thing to ever happen to north american aviation, and is the primary reason why Canadian airports are at the cutting edge of aviation service... While the US lags super far behind. Talking as a pilot from a light aircraft (2-10 seats, twin engine or single) point of view here, but privatising ATC is probably the best idea Trump has ever fucking had. Navcanada is a great not for profit corporation. Trump wants the FAA to be a non for profit corporation. I am 100% on board for the FAA to be freed of a lot of government bureaucracy. Anyone that says this is bad frankly has no fucking idea what they're talking about. Ask literally any experienced private pilot if they'd rather fly to a small canadian airport or a small US one lmao. [editline]5th June 2017[/editline] Read the article, it'll be a not-for-profit corporation. FAA and its systems needed to be brought in to the 21st century about 20 years ago. [editline]5th June 2017[/editline] Navcanada is the obvious analog for this - none of this has happened with Navcanada. Especially that training part... From the Canadian controllers I've talked to, they literally spend literally 3+ years controlling simulations before they're given a seat in a real tower. Keep in mind that Navcanada is another privately run, not for profit corporation.[/QUOTE] I work for a non-profit government TV studio (a subsidey of CTV which is a canadian company btw) and we cut corners and are constantly underfunded all the time every year. I doubt it is going to be anything like Canada and other more socialized countries who actually fund their organizations and have oversight over private entities.
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