• Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’ within the Church
    47 replies, posted
[QUOTE=sgman91;46411535]Caring about the truth of something isn't "bullshit." You obviously don't care because you don't agree with it anyway, but for those who do it actually matters when a group insists on falsely teaching the most important truth on the entire planet. Don't fall for the BS, meaningless, rhetoric. The Catholic church has set traditions way more ideologically driven than anyone else, and unless the pope directly wants to change those, then all this crap he's saying means nothing. [editline]4th November 2014[/editline] The fact that the pope doesn't seem to care about truth makes me believe that he doesn't really believe it in the first place. If he did, then he would care a little more about not approving groups that teach things directly contradictory to the most fundamental building blocks of your own beliefs.[/QUOTE] yes, the catholic church has not been perfect in the past, but now it has a progressive leader. Unless you take the bible literally, I see no reason why that is an issue
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;46411332]"Protestant" nowadays basically refers to "Non-hierarchical Christian"[/QUOTE] What do you mean? As far as I'm aware most protestant denominations came about during the protestant reformation. Some have combined/split apart since then, but still have roots in the reformation.
[QUOTE=sgman91;46411292]You know what else is retarded? Trying to teach people about things that you obviously don't understand. There are a TON of major differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, including, but not limited to: - Catholics officially hold that no one is saved unless they are under the authority of the pope. Protestants disagree. - Catholics hold that works play a part in salvation (a better life gets you less purgatory). Protestants hold that works are a sign of salvation, but play no role in achieving it. - Catholics pray to saints as intercessors to God. Protestants hold this to be nothing more than idol worship at worst, and useless at best. - Catholics believe that the pope is infallible when making official statements on Church and faith related matters. Protestants believe the Bible to be the only authority. - Catholics hold church tradition to be either at the same level as, or higher than, the Biblical scripture. Protestants disagree entirely and hold only to the Bible. This is a tiny list compared to the entirety of the split between the two groups. The commonly held belief in Protestantism is that it is very possible for Catholics to be real Christians, but that the more fundamentally one holds to traditional Catholic beliefs the more grey it becomes.[/QUOTE] As a former Catholic, and a former practising Catholic, at that, I can confirm that you're full of shit. These things are only held to be true by the most hardline extremists in the Church, and even those in the Vatican were generally more progressive. You know what you sound like? You sound like a jealous Protestant. If that's true, I'm ashamed for you - You're a living example of everything that's been wrong with both Catholicism and the other branches of Christianity, arguing over unimportant differences in ideological technicality - And you're exactly the sort of Christian the Pope describes as an 'illness' in the Church. I'd say, as an atheist, that he's right.
[QUOTE=sgman91;46411535]Caring about the truth of something isn't "bullshit." You obviously don't care because you don't agree with it anyway, but for those who do it actually matters when a group insists on falsely teaching the most important truth on the entire planet.[/QUOTE] What's that may I ask?
[QUOTE=Harnbrand;46411885]As a former Catholic, and a former practising Catholic, at that, I can confirm that you're full of shit. These things are only held to be true by the most hardline extremists in the Church, and even those in the Vatican were generally more progressive.[/QUOTE] Those are the OFFICIAL Catholic teachings. I agree, most Catholics don't agree with a ton of the official doctrine. Going over the synods and church traditions is a laborious task. Most people have no idea about the official doctrines. [editline]4th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Deng;46411920]What's that may I ask?[/QUOTE] Salvation and how it works.
[QUOTE=Harnbrand;46411885]You know what you sound like? You sound like a jealous Protestant. If that's true, I'm ashamed for you - You're a living example of everything that's been wrong with both Catholicism and the other branches of Christianity, arguing over unimportant differences in ideological technicality - And you're exactly the sort of Christian the Pope describes as an 'illness' in the Church. I'd say, as an atheist, that he's right.[/QUOTE] I don't see how these differences are "unimportant." The Bible lays out a method for being a "good person" and getting into heaven. There is an actual, listed method. How is this a technicality when it's the core of the religion?
this guy is a badass
[QUOTE=sgman91;46411940]Salvation and how it works.[/QUOTE] And how is a group falsely teaching the "wrong" truth? Please detail. [QUOTE=Explosions;46411954]I don't see how these differences are "unimportant." The Bible lays out a method for being a "good person" and getting into heaven. There is an actual, listed method. How is this a technicality when it's the core of the religion?[/QUOTE] It's not meant to be something to be entirely relied upon or cited as authoritative. It is important, but it is not above everything else.
[QUOTE=sgman91;46411940] Salvation and how it works.[/QUOTE] Don't cut yourself on that edge. If the god you believe in is a tyrant, we're fortunate we live in a different reality.
[QUOTE=Deng;46411446]Most of the people who say "the bible is the ultimate authority on theological matters" heavily overlap with the ideological types, for obvious reasons. Catholic theology tends to be much more flexible, which is part of the reason for its enduring vitality and success. For instance, the Pope can argue "Gay rights are important" as society changes. However, protestants can't really do that. They argue endlessly over the meaning of certain parts of the bible and never come to a conclusion, and often they end up splitting into another church. They become rooted in their ways and treat the religion with obsessiveness, and eventually the church dies after everybody in it dies or quits.[/QUOTE] Some protestants do get rooted in their ways, and some don't. Same with Roman Catholics. Some are more progressive, others not so progressive. They do not always argue endlessly over the meaning of certain parts of the Bible- some do- but holistically the protestant faith is based on having faith in God, obeying God, believing in Jesus Christ the Savior. The extra ceremonial/tradition baggage the R.C's put forward is just a waste of time and generally irrelevant. Most people do not even bloody follow the church in 'proper' manners. Some just attend it for the community and do not discuss this philosophical/theology stuff in this detail. That post was just a big generalisation you just put forward there mate. [editline]5th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Harnbrand;46412026]Don't cut yourself on that edge. If the god you believe in is a tyrant, we're fortunate we live in a different reality.[/QUOTE] Who said that God was a tyrant? [editline]5th November 2014[/editline] I'm going to sound like a pompous neckbeard or whatever, but if were going to accelerate forward as a species we should just replace the R.C with a proper efficient humanitarian non-profit organisation that gets to the point and 'educates' and puts debates up which are relevant to the global society we live in today.
[QUOTE=Deng;46411980]It's not meant to be something to be entirely relied upon or cited as authoritative. It is important, but it is not above everything else.[/QUOTE] I'm curious, what other way have you to find out what god wants from you?
[QUOTE=Samiam22;46409537]The most amazing thing about Pope Francis is that he can say something as awesomely progressive as this and then some cunt, [I]without fail[/I], will come up and say "I'm not impressed" or "Who cares what the Pope says?"[/QUOTE] My favorite is "It's just a PR stunt"
[QUOTE=shackleford;46412350] Who said that God was a tyrant? [editline]5th November 2014[/editline] I'm going to sound like a pompous neckbeard or whatever, but if were going to accelerate forward as a species we should just replace the R.C with a proper efficient humanitarian non-profit organisation that gets to the point and 'educates' and puts debates up which are relevant to the global society we live in today.[/QUOTE] You could no more easily do that than replace any other religion with a 'non-profit organization'. It's a ridiculous idea unless everyone just stops believing in anything altogether. As for the idea of a tyrant god, I'm under the impression that those Christians - Or really, those of any faith - who are ideological hardliners and believe there's one way and one way only to their ideal of 'salvation' worship a tyrant of a god.
[QUOTE=Harnbrand;46411885]As a former Catholic, and a former practising Catholic, at that, I can confirm that you're full of shit. These things are only held to be true by the most hardline extremists in the Church, and even those in the Vatican were generally more progressive. You know what you sound like? You sound like a jealous Protestant. If that's true, I'm ashamed for you - You're a living example of everything that's been wrong with both Catholicism and the other branches of Christianity, arguing over unimportant differences in ideological technicality - And you're exactly the sort of Christian the Pope describes as an 'illness' in the Church. I'd say, as an atheist, that he's right.[/QUOTE] Sorry. 18 years attending catholic school He's right. 100% Right. Right from who's saved down to church tradition. It's in the compendium ffs. [QUOTE]The most amazing thing about Pope Francis is that he can say something as awesomely progressive as this and then some cunt, without fail, will come up and say "I'm not impressed" or "Who cares what the Pope says?" [/QUOTE] The thing, is not progressive. Its something that is acknowledged inside the church since...well, a lot. For example, when he criticized Capitalism and said that caring for the poor wasn't being a communist...it was said more than 100 years ago. He's just repeating what has been said. And when people compare him to Ratzinger, of course he's gonna come up as the "cool" pope. Well, damn, because he went through a different reality than Ratzinger and had another perspective. Ratzinger, while almost nobody knows, is one of the top dogs in what philosophy (inside the Church) matters. He even sat down to discuss with Habermas. FUCKING HABERMAS BRO. So while Ratzinger was getting high and flashing on what the meaning of life is, Bergoglio is getting down to what matters here and speaks on behalf of it.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;46412559]Sorry. 18 years attending catholic school He's right. 100% Right. Right from who's saved down to church tradition. It's in the compendium ffs. The thing, is not progressive. Its something that is acknowledged inside the church since...well, a lot. For example, when he criticized Capitalism and said that caring for the poor wasn't being a communist...it was said more than 100 years ago. He's just repeating what has been said. And when people compare him to Ratzinger, of course he's gonna come up as the "cool" pope. Well, damn, because he went through a different reality than Ratzinger and had another perspective. Ratzinger, while almost nobody knows, is one of the top dogs in what philosophy (inside the Church) matters. He even sat down to discuss with Habermas. FUCKING HABERMAS BRO. So while Ratzinger was getting high and flashing on what the meaning of life is, Bergoglio is getting down to what matters here and speaks on behalf of it.[/QUOTE] The country you live in and the social environment all play a role in the level of indoctrination. I went through the Catholic Schooling system in the Middle East and in Canada both, and they were both radically different.
[QUOTE=Harnbrand;46412533]You could no more easily do that than replace any other religion with a 'non-profit organization'. It's a ridiculous idea unless everyone just stops believing in anything altogether. As for the idea of a tyrant god, I'm under the impression that those Christians - Or really, those of any faith - who are ideological hardliners and believe there's one way and one way only to their ideal of 'salvation' worship a tyrant of a god.[/QUOTE] I do not fully understand your claim/impression about this 'tyrant god.' Are you suggesting there's more than one way to be 'saved?' And it would be a generalisation to put forward the notion that there is a 'tyrant god' worshipped by 'ideological hardliners.' Perhaps this 'tyrant god' would be a 'just god' in their perception? I think the R.C organisation is for-profit. That idea I projected is a visionary idea, not a pragmatic one. I think people should be subjected to 'proper' education so people would have second thoughts into believing into an institution. People should be independent in their thinking, someone doesn't need to necessarily represent them like the institution itself.
The hilarious thing to me about all this is Catholics can't even agree amongst themselves what their beliefs should be. Christians do not all follow one set of beliefs. ALL of religion is splintered into subgroups who tweak things one way or another to suit their needs. You could get ten people to read the Bible and get ten different interpretations on what it says, ranging from literal to metaphorical...and all these interpretations would be informed by the reader's ideology. He's telling Christians to get back to the word, but there is no objective word everyone agrees on. So he's really saying "Get back to MY idea of what the word is".
[QUOTE=Deng;46411980]And how is a group falsely teaching the "wrong" truth?[/QUOTE] It's difficult to explain the details to people who haven't done any real study of the beliefs, but I'll try and give a simple explanation of some big, fundamental differences: In Christianity you have two ideas, justification and sanctification. Justification is the act of being saved. So once you are justified you no longer have to worry about damnation. Sanctification follows justification and consists of becoming more Christlike, changing your life for the better, etc. Protestants believe that justification is instant at the moment of acceptance. Once you accept the saving gift of grace you no longer have to have any doubt about your place in relation to God. On the other hand, Catholics believe that you are slowly justified through works like the sacraments (confession, communion, etc.), good moral choices, and finally purgatory. You cannot be sure of your salvation in life because you are not fully justified. This is a major difference. A clear example of this difference is shown in infant baptism. I've seen Catholics beg their protestant family members to have their baby baptised so that they can be saved just in case the baby dies. In their eyes the human work of baptism is required for salvation. There are some protistant sects that practice infantile baptism (Dutch Reformed, for example), but for completely different reasons not having to do with salvation. If anyone is interested in learning more about the key differences the Council of Trent is a great place to see it. It was held in response to the protestant uprisings and declares what is considered heresy from true Catholic teaching and what isn't. Here's a link: [URL]https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent.html[/URL] Here is a key quote from that council about justification: "CANON XXIV. - If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." (to be anathema is to be excommunicated, and therefore damned to hell because you are no longer under the authority of the church)
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