Germany accuses France of being 'Europe's biggest problem child'
115 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;40493665]When people say "the outbreak of the first world war" they tend to think F.Ferninand death was the whole cause.
There were instances in which, USA, France and UK waged smal colonial battles agaisnt the German Empire.
I dont which german said this: "Germany is trying to claim is place in the sun without putting others in the shadow" which was basically Germany FP during the whole 19th century. At the start of the 20th century there was a huge naval arms race agaisnt the UK, and coupled with the fact that sooner or later shit was going to spill out, WW1 was inevitable.
WW2 on the other hand...I've read analysis from historians such as Ian Kershaw that what happened in germany was a social movement which actually put Hitler into its place. In Ian Kershaw's book, it is shown that the title of "Fuhrer" was not auto adjudicated by Hitler, but rather, people started calling him like that. The same happened in other countries such as Italy, Hungary and France -this one on a smaller scale-. So Hitler or no Hitler, its hard to say WW2 wouldnt happen.[/QUOTE]
It probably would have, but in the 50's or a couple years into the 40's. When the world would find out about the shit Stalin was pulling there would eventually be an intervention and everybody would join in to kick communism.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;40493870]And keep in mind that it was going to end at a struggle in Poland and would have been a world war against the Soviets with the Germans as allies, with a couple years off, had it not been for Britain and France declaring war on Germany at Poland.
Just saying. Communism was extremely feared and considered more of a threat to the world than Fascism.[/QUOTE]
Communism might be, actually, more of a threat than Fascism. In all cases, Communism is internationalist. In some cases, Fascism might be internationalist, and in others, they might keep it to themselves, as seen with Franco and Getulio Vargas. Mussolini wanted (Might have used this just to rally support from the "Masses") to restore the Roman Empire and nothing more. But Hitler plans were more fucked up. To this date im still unsure if he wanted to kill everybody, if he only wanted to kill the jews or if he was just plain mad and made everything ad hoc.
[QUOTE] didn't keynes actually predict what happened in germany after versailles?
[/QUOTE]
Do you mean the WW2? Or the economic fuck up?
The WW2 prediction was made by....I believe....General Foch after seeing the Versailles treaty. He stated that it was an armistice for 20 years. Well, he was damn right about that.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;40493910]It probably would have, but in the 50's or a couple years into the 40's. When the world would find out about the shit Stalin was pulling there would eventually be an intervention and everybody would join in to kick communism.[/QUOTE]
Well it wasnt exactly communism, it was Stalin's funhouse.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;40493233]My desk is too small[/QUOTE]
[video=youtube;hRHhPNzQXHI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRHhPNzQXHI[/video]
[QUOTE=Negrul1;40493670]Whoever started those wars, they're all different countries now.
It was quite a while ago, you know.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, in a few years it'll be 100 years since WWII.
Crazy.
[QUOTE=Bliblixe;40493740]You're wishing for an utopia that cannot be achieved. Every country has its own interests, Germany needs austerity right now and tries to push their agenda onto the EU's politics, France doesn't need that.
This man right there has been claiming this for years and his influence in France is growing by the day, he'll probably end up being prime minister :
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMYimc4GoMI[/media][/QUOTE]
I'd love Mel to be successful just so everyone around the world can get worried about a communist guy being in power
I thought the 1st world war started because some fellow called Archie Duke shot an ostrich.
[img]http://mundabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/private_baldrick_season_4.jpg[/img]
And sure France has some problems at the moment, but problem child is a bit much of a useless insult for opposing austerity.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;40493929]Communism might be, actually, more of a threat than Fascism. In all cases, Communism is internationalist. In some cases, Fascism might be internationalist, and in others, they might keep it to themselves, as seen with Franco and Getulio Vargas. Mussolini wanted (Might have used this just to rally support from the "Masses") to restore the Roman Empire and nothing more. But Hitler plans were more fucked up. To this date im still unsure if he wanted to kill everybody, if he only wanted to kill the jews or if he was just plain mad and made everything ad hoc.[/QUOTE]
what do you mean by "communism"? because when stalin came into power he advocated the idea of "socialism in one country", which basically went back on the idea of communist/socialist revolution needing to be an international, prolonged struggle. if you are talking about communism in the statist sense, in the sense that the ussr was "communist", then no, communism does not have to be internationalist. that's just a matter of semantics though.
[quote]Do you mean the WW2? Or the economic fuck up?
The WW2 prediction was made by....I believe....General Foch after seeing the Versailles treaty. He stated that it was an armistice for 20 years. Well, he was damn right about that.[/quote]
maybe that's who i was thinking of. i thought keynes had a strong opposition to versailles because he predicted that the german economy would collapse and become a hotbed of instability and nationalism or something.
[QUOTE=lavacano;40493716]Didn't the whole thing start because Serbia was a dick and wouldn't let Austria investigate Ferdinand's assassination?
Serbia should've gotten some of the blame. Not necessarily all of it, since I doubt anyone at the time would have been able to predict the huge shitstorm that happened afterward, but y'know, should've made them fork over some cash to Austria or something.
or maybe not reading the five or six posts that got added while i was looking up the relevant countries on wikipedia[/QUOTE]
Are you retarded?
Gavrilo Princip was a member of "Young Bosnia" which wasn't Serbian exclusive group. It was full of Croatians and everyone else, it was only by a random chance that Ferdinand was assasinated by a Serbian. There were few assassination attempts on that day (first one failed).
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Bosnia[/url]
A-H gave an ultimatum to Serbia. Serbia accepted all points of it except the one where A-H has the right to investigate inside Serbia's territory (that would mean the other country is meddling in the ones internal politics which means there is no integrity of the country).
Assassination was used just as an excuse anyway, all major forces were arming up the whole time. They weren't ready when Moroccan crisis or Bosnian crisis happened, but Germany was ready in 1914. and had a major influence in AH by pushing it to go to the war. Germany emerged as a superpower by the beginning of the 20th century (Bizmark was it's first emperor proclaimed in Marseille because Germany wanted to humiliate France in Franco-Prussian war), and as such it felt it needed to have suitable territory for a superpower. Fear of Germany made other superpowers settle things between them (Entente cordiale between UK and France (UK got Egypt, France got Morroco)) and focus on the other side. After Bizmark left the throne (his goals were heavily suppressing France), the new leaders started planing the war. Their biggest fear was war on two fronts (which happened later on). Germany was doomed when they focused all of their resources on submarines. When they saw they failed they p much instantly surrendered because they still had an advantage (because the allies still weren't even close to it's original territory).
I could go on writing about this for ages, but I'm not sure this is a thread for it.
Is Germany running out of space again?
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40493377]First one might've been avoided if Bismarck hadn't done his unification and alliance shit.
[/QUOTE]
It isn't actually his fault, he was all for diplomacy. Blame his heirs.
[editline]1st May 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;40493765]Well the serbians, while fighting as hard as they could, got the everloving shit kicked out of them, to the point of a temporary mass-exodus of their homeland. So you couldnt really take anything in reperation from them anyway.[/QUOTE]
Serbia was doing great against A-H (even claimed the first victory for the allies), they had to retreat because Bulgaria backstabbed them.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;40494929]It isn't actually his fault, he was all for diplomacy. Blame his heirs.[/QUOTE]
A lot of things would have been avoided if Wilhelm II hadn't dismissed Bismark as soon as he was crowned. Bismark was responsible for keeping the European powers in check and there was a relatively peaceful era among the powers for the 20 years that he was chancellor of the reich.
And Unification was kinda a funny thing. The only territories that weren't in Prussia by the time of Unification was like Baden and Bavaria.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;40494905]
Gavrilo Princip was a member of "Young Bosnia" which wasn't Serbian exclusive group. It was full of Croatians and everyone else, it was only by a random chance that Ferdinand was assasinated by a Serbian. There were few assassination attempts on that day (first one failed).[/QUOTE]
serbian defense force, initiate operation serbia strong
Like seriously. Look at this shit. The only areas they didn't directly control by 1870 was Baden-Wurtenburg and Bavaria :v:
I say that since everyone else was part of the Prussian led German Confederacy.
[t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/German_Reich1.png[/t]
[QUOTE=thisispain;40494980]serbian defense force, initiate operation serbia strong[/QUOTE]
Keep up being stupid, it suits you. Not a single sentence in that post is wrong, it's just you being stupid and refusing to belive anything that supports Serbia.
[quote]A lot of things would have been avoided if Wilhelm II hadn't dismissed Bismark as soon as he was crowned. Bismark was responsible for keeping the European powers in check and there was a relatively peaceful era among the powers for the 20 years that he was chancellor of the reich.
And Unification was kinda a funny thing. The only territories that weren't in Prussia by the time of Unification was like Baden and Bavaria.[/quote]
Bismark feared France's revenge, so he used diplomacy to bind it. France found the opening in Russia and made alliance with them first.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;40493640]germany was abit too eager to mobilize the second they had an excuse.[/QUOTE]
Part of their quick mobilization had to do with their way of war. Since Germany is stuck in the center of Europe, it's found itself more or less historically surrounded by enemies and potential enemies-- and that was especially true with the alliance situation they were faced with in the Great War (France and Russia supporting each other, obviously; Russia in the east, France in the west).
They didn't have the ability to fight a long, drawn-out war of attrition with anyone (let alone two major powers), so if war was going to come (and it seemed pretty likely it probably was with the Russians mobilizing so quickly already and the French apparently continuing to back their Russian allies), then they needed to have the initiative to strike first, strike hard, and strike rapidly enough to gain the necessary battlefield victories that would force their opponents to surrender, either because they were too weak to continue fighting or too demoralized (or both).
A short and lively war was what they wanted.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;40495027]Keep up being stupid, it suits you.
[/QUOTE]
rather be stupid than a double genocide apologist any day
serbian pls
Their plan was to quickly overrun France, then to focus all forces on Eastern front. This failed when Miracle of the Marne happened.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_the_Marne[/url]
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;40495027]it's just you being stupid and refusing to belive anything that supports Serbia.
[/QUOTE]
young bosnia was spearheaded and supported by the serbian army which had a direct hand in planning the assassination of archduke franzie
idgaf about serbia, i just think nationalistic revisionism is gross
[editline]1st May 2013[/editline]
where did all of these history professors suddenly pop out from
Young Bosnia was an organization whose goal was destruction of A-H + freeing the Slavs and uniting them all into a single nation. It consisted of Serbians, Bosniaks and Croats. It was supported by some members of Black Hand (whose motto is "unity or death").
Black Hand (Serbia) (Crna Ruka), a secret society devoted to Serbian unification in 1910s.
[quote=Gavrilo Princip]
"The political union of the Yugoslavs [..] was my basic idea [..] I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be free from Austria"[/quote]
To think that assassination was the sole thing that plunged a world into the war is ridiculous. Everything was planned way before that, it's just that at the time of assassination Germany was ready for the war.
k that has nothing to do with what i was saying
stop perverting history to support your nationalist revisionism, thanks
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Austria[/url]
Where did I deny assassination happening? How about you educate yourself a bit instead of linking Wikipedia articles (and being so close minded)?
The people who planned the assassination were arrested, tried, convicted and punished, yet A-H still declared war on Serbia (even tho Serbia accepted all the points of majorly unfair ultimatum except one, Serbia didn't really want to go to the war because it was still recovering from the Balkan wars). As I said before,
[quote]To think that assassination was the sole thing that plunged a world into the war is ridiculous. Everything was planned way before that, it's just that at the time of assassination Germany was ready for the war[/quote].
Related to the Young Bosnia thing I was talking about in previous posts:
[quote][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Gavrilo_Princip_steps_and_plaque.jpg/401px-Gavrilo_Princip_steps_and_plaque.jpg[/img][/quote]
"From this place on 28th of June in 1914 Gavrilo Princip proclaimed public protest against tirany and centuries old wish of our people for freedom with his shot."
the wikipedia article was for your benefit.
i just think its gross that you are so quick to push away anything even remotely negative from Serbia.
guess im also kind of butthurt about this:
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;39231224]Lol I wont even bother here since I know you guys have drilled in your brains that Albanians are innocent and you still think '99 happened out of nowhere.[/QUOTE]
It's nice that you at least admit it.
Of course Serbia did some bad things too (like Serbia + Bulgaria occupation of Macedonia), but some people's logic here is just arrogant.
I'll still stick with my opinion in that quote because FP isn't really a place to discuss it. I know about 90s as much as I know about World Wars, but it may cause some controversy discussing it here (ie anything saying about KLA and their crimes or Albanian slaughter houses will mark me as nationalist and probably get me banned).
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;40495304]It's nice that you at least admit it.
Of course Serbia did some bad things too (like Serbia + Bulgaria occupation of Macedonia), but some people's logic here is just arrogant.
I'll still stick with my opinion in that quote because FP isn't really a place to discuss it. I know about 90s as much as I know about World Wars, but it may cause some controversy discussing it here (ie anything saying about KLA and their crimes or Albanian slaughter houses will mark me as nationalist and probably get me banned).[/QUOTE]
Why is FP not a place to discuss it?
Because it's extremely liberal + it has a huge bandwagon effect and it will take me a really really long time to explain the whole situation in the Balkans. Plus, there are way too few people from here (as in this region) for me to have a healthy discussion. I want to discuss stuff with people who know what they're talking about (preferably if they lived through it too) and are familiar with developments and events in the region, not just some Youtube clips/newspaper articles/Wikipedia pages. I mean, p much everything I posted in this thread was my knowledge (unlike most people on FP who just link Wikipedia article (I linked it in this thread in some posts to serve as a proof)).
Case and proof, you rated me dumb in perfectly reasonable posts because it opposes general opinion of FP (I mean it's just small icon at the bottom of my posts, but it doesn't invalid the point).
It may be silly or stupid reason for you, but I just don't feel bothering discussing it here because I really doubt it will produce any result.
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40495414]Why is FP not a place to discuss it?[/QUOTE]
Probably because it's going off-topic. But then again, learning something about history can be beneficial.
Knowing with all of the eurozone issues currently consuming the EU, and that most of the bail-out bonds are coming from Germany, they're probably had enough of giving money away and with Francois Hollande now as president, I think Merkel and Gauck probably don't want his ideals giving Germans food for thought (e.g. Gay mariage legalization, current national debt etc etc).
[QUOTE=Mudbone;40493175]Sounds like the plot of a [B]hetalia [/B]episode.[/QUOTE]
Okay really what the hell is this and why do I keep hearing about it everywhere
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