Apologists for paedophiles: How Labour Deputy Harriet Harman, her shadow minister husband and former - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;43180731]I know this is the daily mail but is this for real?[/QUOTE] It was true, attitudes were very different then. What was stated has also since been proven to be factually accurate by Rind's 1998 meta-analysis and the various follow up studies.

[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;43180754]I read the post you were banned for. If you really think a grown man having sex with a 12 year old girl isn't an example of a pedophile then I don't know what to say.[/QUOTE] Pedophilia refers to attraction prepubescence, in the west the vast majority of people begin puberty at 12 or earlier. Therefore it is simply true to state that such a relationships would not likely be classed as pedophilia. [url]http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Puberty/pages/introduction.aspx[/url]

[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;43180802]Ok. Pedophilia/ephebophilia/whatever you want to call it, it should not be legal for a grown man to have sex with a 12 year old girl who has not fully matured mentally to be able to give that kind of consent.[/QUOTE] You don't fully mentally mature until the mid 20s though. By your logic the age of consent should be raised to at least 25. [url]http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/09/23/brain-wiring-continues-into-young-adulthood/29719.html[/url] [url]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110922134617.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;43180838]Ok I really don't feel like getting into another one of these arguments but if you honestly don't see anything wrong with a grown man having sex with a 12 year old then you should check yourself.[/QUOTE] If you can't logically explain to me the problem with it, perhaps you should reconsider your position. Also what do you mean by grown man? Physically you could be fully grown by 15.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;43180860]So are you arguing it should be lowered to 12? Because if so, stating that people don't mentally mature until mid 20s doesn't help your case at all. You don't have to be mentally mature to fuck someone your own age. Lowering it wouldn't make sense, current laws are fine for the most part.[/QUOTE] Which current laws, it varies from 18 to 16 in America and it varies from 17 to 14 in Europe. Which of those is correct? The point I was making is that full mental maturity obviously isn't required to have a consensual sexual relationships as no where in the world is the age of consent high enough for this to be the case. Also why should it be? Sex isn't complicated. "You don't have to be mentally mature to fuck someone your own age." A lot of people state this and I don't understand why. Why accept that for example a 15 year old should be able to have sex with a fellow 15 year old but not with an 18+ year old. It's no secret that some people, both mentally and physically, are significantly more or less mature that people there own age. Why would you allow such a potentially exploitative relationship but not allow another relationship in which there was an age gap? There would be a risk, but no guarantee, of exploitation in both cases.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;43180860]If you actually are arguing it be lowered to 12, you are disgusting.[/QUOTE] In my country (Spain), age of consent is 13.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;43180963]Imo, 18 is the best age because you're also legally an adult and you can legally do (fuck) whatever you want! No you don't have to be mature if the other person also isn't mature, and the best way to know that is the estimate an age when most people reach a certain age of matureness (ie 18). There is a difference between a 15 year old and an 18 year old. There is a LOT of growing that goes on during those 3 years. Ask yourself: What's the difference between a freshman and a senior? Quite a fucking lot. This is your logic: "Well, teenagers all vary on maturity regarding sex with people [B]their own age[/B], so why not just have sex with 40 year olds??" If you don't see why that's disgusting, you are icky and I no longer want to argue.[/QUOTE] You're legally an adult in different senses at different times in different places. In America for example you can't even drink alcohol until you're 21 and in Britain the age at which you are tried as an adult is 10. Also as previously stated in much of America the age of consent is lower than 18. "There is a difference between a 15 year old and an 18 year old. There is a LOT of growing that goes on during those 3 years. Ask yourself: What's the difference between a freshman and a senior? Quite a fucking lot." Again there's a difference between two people of the same age at every age. It's already legal, in Britain and most of America, for a 40 year old to have consensual sex with a 16 year old, there is an enormous gap in maturity much more so than between a 15 year old and an 18 year old. Ultimately you're just being arbitrary in almost every conceivable relationship there would be a gap in maturity between the participants, even among people of the same age. Also if you're going to resort to ad hominem, you're right this is a waste of time. [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Maximo13;43180999]In my country (Spain), age of consent is 13.[/QUOTE] Not for much longer though. I've read It's likely to be raised soon. It's still 12 in Mexico and 13 in some prefectures of Japan.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;43181061]If you're going to sit there and say it's okay for a 40 year old to fuck a 12 year old, you're damn right this is a waste of time. The best way to do it would be like this: 16: can date people within 2 years 17: can date people within 3 years 18:can date people within 4 years etc.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=half-your-age-plus-seven[/url]

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;43181061]If you're going to sit there and say it's okay for a 40 year old to fuck a 12 year old, you're damn right this is a waste of time. The best way to do it would be like this: 16: can date people within 2 years 17: can date people within 3 years 18:can date people within 4 years etc.[/QUOTE] WHY? People need to realize that pulling the "I don't even know what to say UR SO STUPID" makes you a goddamn idiot.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;43181061]If you're going to sit there and say it's okay for a 40 year old to fuck a 12 year old, you're damn right this is a waste of time. The best way to do it would be like this: 16: can date people within 2 years 17: can date people within 3 years 18:can date people within 4 years etc.[/QUOTE] You're just stating ages that you personally approve of with no explanation/evidence to back it up. Everyone has an opinion, why not actually explain the reasoning behind your opinion. Why specifically have you chosen these ages?

I know a lot of people disagree, but I think we should be making sure we extend human rights to paedophiles. We can't selectively choose who we allow to be "equal" and not. I'm not talking about child rapists / predators, that's a whole different category, but people who have that sexual orientation and aren't breaking the law.

[QUOTE=Calam1tous;43181095]I know a lot of people disagree, but I think we should be making sure we extend human rights to paedophiles. We can't selectively choose who we allow to be "equal" and not. I'm not talking about child rapists / predators, that's a whole different category, but people who have that sexual orientation and aren't breaking the law.[/QUOTE] It's legal to be a pedophile, just not to have sex with a child.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;43180918]A lot of people state this and I don't understand why. Why accept that for example a 15 year old should be able to have sex with a fellow 15 year old but not with an 18+ year old. It's no secret that some people, both mentally and physically, are significantly more or less mature that people there own age. Why would you allow such a potentially exploitative relationship but not allow another relationship in which there was an age gap? There would be a risk, but no guarantee, of exploitation in both cases.[/QUOTE] 15 year olds lack a lot of social and world experience, and they lack a lot of relationship experience. They also tend to be thinking with their hormones. An 18+ year old can easily use their position of power to manipulate the relationship. It's like manipulating a drunk person. [QUOTE=Calam1tous;43181095]I know a lot of people disagree, but I think we should be making sure we extend human rights to paedophiles. We can't selectively choose who we allow to be "equal" and not. I'm not talking about child rapists / predators, that's a whole different category, but people who have that sexual orientation and aren't breaking the law.[/QUOTE] It's a paraphilia. Not a sexual orientation.

[QUOTE=Rubs10;43181179]15 year olds lack a lot of social and world experience, and they lack a lot of relationship experience. They also tend to be thinking with their hormones. An 18+ year old can easily use their position of power to manipulate the relationship. It's like manipulating a drunk person.[/QUOTE] Some 18 year olds, really some 30 year olds, lack social and world experiences. Also how exactly would you define "social and world experience" and how much is enough to consent to sex? People always think with hormones and make impulsive decisions, they definitely still do at 18-20. hormonal imbalances happen all throughout out adulthood and can be caused by a variety of reasons. If you really think hormonal people shouldn't be allowed to consent to sex then women wouldn't be allowed to consent to sex certain times every month. [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Rubs10;43181179] It's a paraphilia. Not a sexual orientation.[/QUOTE] The DSM V officially reclassified pedophilia as a sexual orientation earlier this year. There was even a thread about here on facepunch.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;43181216] The DSM V officially reclassified pedophilia as a sexual orientation earlier this year. There was even a thread about here on facepunch.[/QUOTE] Worth noting that they went back on that. [url]http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/31/apa-correct-manual-clarification-pedophilia-not-se/[/url] Look, we went over this in the other thread. You're advocating sex with children and that is not okay.

[QUOTE=Rubs10;43181179]15 year olds lack a lot of social and world experience, and they lack a lot of relationship experience. They also tend to be thinking with their hormones. An 18+ year old can easily use their position of power to manipulate the relationship. It's like manipulating a drunk person. It's a paraphilia. Not a sexual orientation.[/QUOTE] Everyone is thinking with their hormones, manipulation is easier to an extent, just legally do to age difference, but not really aside from that. You might as well argue that all people with an IQ bellow a certain level can't be in relationships. I am not quite as extreme as aidan, who seems to be arguing the age of consent should be around 12, but there isn't anything inherently wrong with a 15 year old and an 18+ year old together.

[QUOTE=CapellanCitizen;43181307]Worth noting that they went back on that. [url]http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/31/apa-correct-manual-clarification-pedophilia-not-se/[/url] Look, we went over this in the other thread. You're advocating sex with children and that is not okay.[/QUOTE] No I am not advocating sex with children. I made that completely clear on a number of occasions. I'm arguing that adolescents should have the right to chose who they have sex with, with each other or adults, or neither. [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE='[sluggo] I am not quite as extreme as aidan, who seems to be arguing the age of consent should be around 12,[/QUOTE] 13/14 actually.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;43181216]Some 18 year olds, really some 30 year olds, lack social and world experiences.[/QUOTE] Yes, they do. [QUOTE=Aidan_088;43181216]Also how exactly would you define "social and world experience" and how much is enough to consent to sex?[/QUOTE] Understanding your own emotions, the emotional impact of a relationship, the risk of STDs, pregnancy, being able to get help, having a stable social network, understanding social and contextual cues, understanding what's acceptable, knowing what you want to do with your life and ensuring your relationship goals line up with that, to name a few. Yes, this is a gray area with no clear lines. We get that, no need to point it out. It benefits most people, however, to have a age of consent about where it is. Maybe a bit lower or higher would be ideal, but it seems to work as it stands. [QUOTE=Aidan_088;43181216]hormonal imbalances happen all throughout out adulthood and can be caused by a variety of reasons. If you really think hormonal people shouldn't be allowed to consent to sex then women wouldn't be allowed to consent to sex certain times every month.[/QUOTE] Okay, but we're talking about neurotypical people here. If someone with a hormonal imbalance does something, that's taken into special consideration under the law, as it should be. Also that quip about being on your period is entirely ridiculous. Don't even try and bring that up.

[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;43181358]Um it's not about a child's right to have sex with someone. It's about an adults right to have sex with a child (which they shouldn't have). I don't know why you are twisting this into child's rights.[/QUOTE] Again I said adolescent not child. Really it's a right for both of them, I just though it was implicit that it would be a right for adults and I wanted to make it clear it would be a right for teenagers/adolescents as well. [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Rubs10;43181365]Yes, they do. Understanding your own emotions, the emotional impact of a relationship, the risk of STDs, pregnancy, being able to get help, having a stable social network, understanding social and contextual cues, understanding what's acceptable, knowing what you want to do with your life and ensuring your relationship goals line up with that, to name a few. [/QUOTE] The risk of pregnancy and STDs is pretty simple to explain and is already largely done by sexual education classes. The rest is vague and really impossible to test for, what is an isn't acceptable changes and can be known before 18. Again these things very well might not exist in someone over whatever you set as the age of consent. [quote] Yes, this is a gray area with no clear lines. We get that, no need to point it out. It benefits most people, however, [b]to have a age of consent about where it is[/b]. Maybe a bit lower or higher would be ideal, but it seems to work as it stands. [/quote] Do you mean where it is in America? If so which state? as has been previously discussed it varies considerably around the world. I don't want radical change, I only think it should be a bit lower. I don't think it does work as it stands, reproductively valid and harmless behavior is popularly considered to be worse than murder, despite this position having no scientific backing. Something clearly needs to change, more in attitudes than in law. [quote] Okay, but we're talking about neurotypical people here. If someone with a hormonal imbalance does something, that's taken into special consideration under the law, as it should be. Also that quip about being on your period is entirely ridiculous. Don't even try and bring that up.[/QUOTE] It wasn't supposed to be a quip, it is true that a women's emotions and decision making process are effected by hormones whilst on her period. I'm not saying women are animals and slaves to their hormones only that it has an impact, in much the same way it does on teenagers.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;43181379]Again I said adolescent not child.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but your definition of "adolescent" IIRC includes 12-year-olds so there really isn't a distinction. [QUOTE=Aidan_088;43181379] It wasn't supposed to be a quip, it is true that a women's emotions and decision making process are effected by hormones whilst on her period. I'm not saying women are animals and slaves to their hormones only that it has an impact, in much the same way it does on teenagers.[/QUOTE] You have got to be fucking kidding me if you think that puberty and being on your period are remotely similar. Except I know you aren't. Quit justifying child molestation.

[QUOTE=CapellanCitizen;43181525]Yeah, but your definition of "adolescent" IIRC includes 12-year-olds so there really isn't a distinction. You have got to be fucking kidding me if you think that puberty and being on your period are remotely similar. Except I know you aren't. Quit justifying child molestation.[/QUOTE] I previously made the point that most 12 year olds were pubescent, but I do not consider them to be in the group teenager/adolescent. I am not justifying child molestation. I am justifying consensual relationships between teenagers and each other or between teenagers and adults.

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;43181379]It wasn't supposed to be a quip, it is true that a women's emotions and decision making process are effected by hormones whilst on her period. I'm not saying women are animals and slaves to their hormones only that it has an impact, in much the same way it does on teenagers.[/QUOTE] Once a month. That's different than every day. And you're exaggerating the effects. Having a period =/= the emotional stability of a teenager

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;43181379]Again I said adolescent not child. Really it's a right for both of them, I just though it was implicit that it would be a right for adults and I wanted to make it clear it would be a right for teenagers/adolescents as well. [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] The risk of pregnancy and STDs is pretty simple to explain and is already largely done by sexual education classes. The rest is vague and really impossible to test for, what is an isn't acceptable changes and can be known before 18. Again these things very well might not exist in someone over whatever you set as the age of consent. Do you mean where it is in America? If so which state? as has been previously discussed it varies considerably around the world. I don't want radical change, I only think it should be a bit lower. I don't think it does work as it stands, reproductively valid and harmless behavior is popularly considered to be worse than murder, despite this position having no scientific backing. Something clearly needs to change, more in attitudes than in law. It wasn't supposed to be a quip, it is true that a women's emotions and decision making process are effected by hormones whilst on her period. I'm not saying women are animals and slaves to their hormones only that it has an impact, in much the same way it does on teenagers.[/QUOTE] I seriously don't understand why you're trying to push something like this and claim that you're doing it to benefit people who are younger than 16, barely any of them plan or actually want to have it, let alone know the risks of it. this will only benefit pedophiles who pray on people of that age

[QUOTE=Rubs10;43181557]Once a month. That's different than every day. Having a period =/= the emotional stability of a teenager[/QUOTE] It doesn't but the point you previously made was that teenagers shouldn't be allowed to have sex because they were too hormonal (without defining how hormonal was too hormonal). All I said was that an adults decision making process is also affected by hormones and used the obvious example of a period. [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Aphtonites;43181570]I seriously don't understand why you're trying to push something like this and claim that you're doing it to benefit people who are younger than 16, barely any of them plan or actually want to have it, let alone know the risks of it. this will only benefit pedophiles who pray on people of that age[/QUOTE] It's for the benefit of both teenagers and adults and again not children. I don't know if there is any reliable data on the subject but from when I was younger than 16 I masturbated regularly and had a strong interest in sex and I received quite reasonable sex education in school and had internet access so the risks were entirely apparent to me. Pedophiles by definition "pray" on prepubescents not on teenagers, they are irrelevant to this discussion.

[IMG]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/14/article-2523526-1A17204000000578-768_306x611.jpg[/IMG] [quote]Disturbing: Labour Deputy Harriet Harman with her shadow minister husband Jack Dromey[/quote]

[QUOTE=Aidan_088;43180820]You don't fully mentally mature until the mid 20s though. By your logic the age of consent should be raised to at least 25. [url]http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/09/23/brain-wiring-continues-into-young-adulthood/29719.html[/url] [url]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110922134617.htm[/url][/QUOTE] There's a difference between physical and emotional maturity

[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;43179595]Well, i feel like that wing party will be killed/prosecuted until they die.[/QUOTE] What, the Labour Party? [editline]14th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeke129;43180486]Seeing as how this is a Daily Mail article how much of it is actually true How long until we learn that Magpie was actually a magazine for bird-watching[/QUOTE] This is actually old news.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;43182356]There's a difference between physical and emotional maturity[/QUOTE] How do you quantify emotional maturity? There are lots of people who are older than 15, 16 , 18 or whatever your age of consent is that are very immature (in every sense of the word). I'm not sure how exactly emotional maturity could be measured but more importantly exactly how much emotional maturity would be required to consent to sex and why?

[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;43182544]"How do you quantify emotional maturity" is exactly why we have an age of consent in the first place.[/QUOTE] It's a question without an answer, or rather a question with as many answers as there are readers of the question. How could you possibly objectively decide what is and what is not mature? You could give any answer and it would be equally as valid, or rather invalid, as anyone else's answer. I suppose this is reflected by the fact that there are many different ages of consent and that it changes over time. I don't understand why people get so angry over the fact that the age of consent could change, like any other law it changes with changing attitudes.

Shit, when I'm at Uni I'm bus journey away from Leamington Spa which was paedo central in the '70s and '80s. Eurgh.