Greece to deport 1,600 illegal immigrants - "We cannot afford an invasion of immigrants" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Rather Not;37106978] Actually, my point is that the immigrant and domestic population don't compete for the same jobs.[/QUOTE] Do you have anything to actually support that statement, because building jobs are generally still popular among native populations as they pay quite well unless the employer is giving a poor salary. In a world where people are rioting for jobs in Greece I think that would demonstrate that there isn't a split between immigrant jobs and Greek jobs - they all want work however this is the thing; immigrants can afford to work for poor salaries. Having illegals in the country is nothing more than a burden upon a country already falling into ruin, what would you have them do? Give them all jobs that Greeks could of done themselves? Or are you under the assumptions the population are too good to wash floors and clean toilets or build houses?

[QUOTE=FalconKrunch;37105894]What's wrong with departing [B]ILLEGAL[/B] immigrants?[/QUOTE] The problem is that most illegal immigrants destroy any form of ID they have, which means without proof of where they're from, they can't be deported.

You racists

[QUOTE=mac338;37107098]I support this action, though it won't help as much as Golden Dawn thinks it'll help.[/QUOTE] Would you believe me if I told you that Golden Dawn attacked this move, claiming that we shouldn't spend so much money on the detention centers? :v: I think that their according to their official policy they support insant repatriation. Without detention centers involved. Don't ask me how that's supposed to work.

I'm okay with this. They shouldn't be there, and they broke the law in going there, so they should have expected the country would throw them out

[QUOTE=Kwigg;37107348]I'm okay with this. They shouldn't be there, and they broke the law in going there, so they should have expected the country would throw them out[/QUOTE] You seem like a really humane person. (That's sarcasm because you actually seem like a horrible fucking person.)

I don't get it. The only people in danger from illegal immigrants are basically skilless day to day labor workers., all the middle class jobs would never go to an illegal guy, how the fuck will this do anything? It's a populistic move, everyone knows that the right wing gains power in bad times and this is nothing but a move to catch stupid idiots votes.

[QUOTE=Vasili;37107123]Do you have anything to actually support that statement, because building jobs are generally still popular among native populations as they pay quite well unless the employer is giving a poor salary. In a world where people are rioting for jobs in Greece I think that would demonstrate that there isn't a split between immigrant jobs and Greek jobs - they all want work however this is the thing; immigrants can afford to work for poor salaries. [/QUOTE] Other than I grew up and work here, I can't provide any sort of official statistic to support my statement, should such a statistic even exist. We are talking about illegal work. That kind of stuff tends to go undocumented. I won't deny that it is generally true that native populations tend to work as construction workers, just as immigrants do, and I myself would be eager to work in construction, should I lose my current job. Nevertheless, I can attest that construction workers in Greece are in their majority, if not almost exclusively, immigrants. While other jobs, such as factory workers have provided employment for both Greeks and immigrants, that doesn't apply to working in a construction site or something relevant (with the exception of the building of governmental facilities of course). I can't say with certainty as to whether it is the social stigma, or the contractors being reluctant to hire Greeks, who are less likely to leave wages below the legal limit unreported, as I'm no sociologist, but ask any other Greek, and they'll give you the same answer. In any construction site that you'll visit, it's unlikely to find a single Greek worker. [quote]Having illegals in the country is nothing more than a burden upon a country already falling into ruin, what would you have them do? Give them all jobs that Greeks could of done themselves? Or are you under the assumptions the population are too good to wash floors and clean toilets or build houses?[/quote] Illegal immigrants comes with all kinds of negative repercussions, I agree. Their repatriation is necessary, though the proper infrastracture should have been designed long ago. [quote] too good to wash floors and clean toilets or build houses?[/quote] Actually, there are plenty of Greek cleaners. Mostly female. [editline]6th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Killuah;37107388]I don't get it. The only people in danger from illegal immigrants are basically skilless day to day labor workers., all the middle class jobs would never go to an illegal guy, how the fuck will this do anything?[/QUOTE] Illegal immigrants tend to contribute to higher crime rates and the transmission of diseases, as well.

[QUOTE=Kwigg;37107348]I'm okay with this. They shouldn't be there, and they broke the law in going there, so they should have expected the country would throw them out[/QUOTE] God forbid one of the wealthiest regions in the world loses a bit of that. [editline]6th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Rather Not;37107389]Other than I grew up and work here, I can't provide any sort of official statistic to support my statement, should such a statistic even exist. We are talking about illegal work. That kind of stuff tends to go undocumented. I won't deny that it is generally true that native populations tend to work as construction workers, just as immigrants do, and I myself would be eager to work in construction, should I lose my current job. Nevertheless, I can attest that construction workers in Greece are in their majority, if not almost exclusively, immigrants. While other jobs, such as factory workers have provided employment for both Greeks and immigrants, that doesn't apply to working in a construction site or something relevant (with the exception of the building of governmental facilities of course). I can't say with certainty as to whether it is the social stigma, or the contractors being reluctant to hire Greeks, who are less likely to leave wages below the legal limit unreported, as I'm no sociologist, but ask any other Greek, and they'll give you the same answer. In any construction site that you'll visit, it's unlikely to find a single Greek worker. Illegal immigrants comes with all kinds of negative repercussions, I agree. Their repatriation is necessary, though the proper infrastracture should have been designed long ago. Actually, there are plenty of Greek cleaners. Mostly female. [editline]6th August 2012[/editline] Illegal immigrants tend to contribute to higher crime rates and the transmission of diseases, as well.[/QUOTE] Source and it better be a good one.

[QUOTE=Killuah;37107403]Source and it better be a good one.[/QUOTE] The higher crime rates? The higher rate of transmission of diseases? I can source both, the first being from daily and weekly police reports and the second being reports from the Ministry of Health, along with a few articles from greek press. I'd rather not be translating mountains of text though, unless you really insist. There is also evidence that diseases that had not been observed since the 1980s have re-entered the region. Look, I don't have a problem with the illegal immigrants as a social group. However, when someone constantly lives in poverty or comes from a country with a low quality of health care, they are more likely to resort to crime than someone of a higher income, and more likely to not have had all of the necessary vaccines. I fully understand that a lot of illegal immigrants want to earn some honest cash, or that others have crime (such as theft) as a last resort to ensure their survival, and I can sympathize with that. Nevertheless, no economy, especially the greek one, can withstand such a sudden influx of people. I'm all for legal immigration, but there's a huge difference between it and illegal immigration. Legal immigrants come in such quantities that not only do not destabilize the economy, but rather stimulate it, and have passed all the necessary medical tests. And while I realize that illegal immigrants are for the most part good and law-abidding people, we can hardly support ourselves as it is. You need to understand that some types of immigration are illegal for that specific reason. We can't handle even more mouths to feed.

[QUOTE=Vasili;37106288]Or the countries business owners are taking advantage of cheap labour[/QUOTE] That is called running the business intelligently by cutting unnecessary costs - the costs of overpaid workers whose skills clearly aren't worth their inflated wages. DBS is correct, he's just telling people the truth that they don't want to hear.

[QUOTE=Rather Not;37107389]Illegal immigrants tend to contribute to higher crime rates and the transmission of diseases, as well.[/QUOTE] Both of those points are the results of poverty and lack of education, not the fact that they're immigrants. [QUOTE=Noble;37107596]That is called running the business intelligently by cutting unnecessary costs[/QUOTE] Wow you're just a fucking monster.

[QUOTE=Killuah;37107403]God forbid one of the wealthiest regions in the world loses a bit of that. [/QUOTE]Locals before illegal immigrants. Greeks aren't even all that wealthy.

[QUOTE=Patriarch;37107602]Both of those points are the results of poverty and lack of education, not the fact that they're immigrants.[/QUOTE] Absolutely. In fact, legal immigrants often stimulate domestic economies. The thing is, adding more poor people to the mix can't end well.

[QUOTE=Rather Not;37107621]Absolutely. In fact, legal immigrants often stimulate domestic economies. The thing is, adding more people to the mix can't end well.[/QUOTE] So what, you just want to send them back to the place they were trying to escape from? That's not going to solve the situation, just put it off for the time being.

Wow, there is no way all of these racist comments would be getting "agrees" if this was about illegal immigration in America. I guess its ok to be angry about illegal immigration in Europe, but not in the US.

Ha, Greece is trying to scapegoat their economic troubles on illegal immigrants. If anything those immigrants were helping the economy by doing jobs that the citizens aren't willing to do. But I guess anything goes when you want to make your citizens feel better about themselves. [QUOTE=Pantz76;37107640]Wow, there is no way all of these racist comments would be getting "agrees" if this was about illegal immigration in America. I guess its ok to be angry about illegal immigration in Europe, but not in the US.[/QUOTE] Maybe not so much on facepunch, but there are a lot of people here in the US that really think illegal immigration is a big problem facing the US, and a most of the time those people are also the pretty racist ones.

[QUOTE=Patriarch;37107627]So what, you just want to send them back to the place they were trying to escape from? That's not going to solve the situation, just put it off for the time being.[/QUOTE] Keep in mind that the 'place they were trying to escape from' was also in a poor financial state. Unless you are referring to warzones. I'm pretty sure that the people searching for asylum are considered legal immigrants. Think about it. If every immigrant came to Greece, the economy would collapse completely, ending up much like the place they were trying to escape from. And then what? Even more immigrants, including parts of the native population would migrate to another country, such as Italy, until their economy collapsed as well. It would create a snowball effect or sorts, essentially making the situation worse for everyone. That is why I firmly believe that migrations should be controlled and balanced properly (through legal immigration), so that the immigrants become an asset rather than a burden to the local economy. It might be a better idea to move this to Mass Debate, btw.

[QUOTE=Rather Not;37107725]Keep in mind that the 'place they were trying to escape from' was also in a poor financial state. Unless you are referring to warzones. I'm pretty sure that the people searching for asylum are considered legal immigrants. Think about it. If every immigrant came to Greece, the economy would collapse completely, ending up much like the place they were trying to escape from. And then what? Even more immigrants, including parts of the native population would migrate to another country, such as Italy, until their economy collapsed as well. It would create a snowball effect or sorts, essentially making the situation worse for everyone. That is why I firmly believe that migrations should be controlled and balanced properly (through legal immigration), so that the immigrants become an asset rather than a burden to the local economy. It might be a better idea to move this to Mass Debate, btw.[/QUOTE] Who is "every immigrant" and what has "if they all come to greece" to do with throwing out 1.6k poor souls who work hard and probably do jobs nobody else doesn't want to do anyway (like all over the world).

[QUOTE=Rather Not;37107725]Keep in mind that the 'place they were trying to escape from' was also in a poor financial state. Unless you are referring to warzones. I'm pretty sure that the people searching for asylum are considered legal immigrants. Think about it. If every immigrant came to Greece, the economy would collapse completely, ending up much like the place they were trying to escape from. And then what? Even more immigrants, including parts of the native population would migrate to another country, such as Italy, until their economy collapsed as well. It would create a snowball effect or sorts, essentially making the situation worse for everyone. That is why I firmly believe that migrations should be controlled and balanced properly (through legal immigration), so that the immigrants become an asset rather than a burden to the local economy. It might be a better idea to move this to Mass Debate, btw.[/QUOTE] what it's not as though they're all going to zerg rush into greece then once that sinks they all pile into another country at once they'd spread out at least

[QUOTE=Killuah;37107788]Who is "every immigrant" and what has "if they all come to greece" to do with throwing out 1.6k poor souls who work hard and probably do jobs nobody else doesn't want to do anyway (like all over the world).[/QUOTE] My point is that if everyone with the means and motives to break the law and come to illegally work in Greece actually did so, paraeconomy would flourish and undermine the real tax-able economy even further, which is what caused the crisis in the first place. Paraeconomy, corruption, and the inability of the state to gain money from taxes, which is a direct outcome of the first two. When an illegal immigrant is hired, his payment (as it is illegal) can't be taxed, he or she, as a person can't be taxed for socialized healthcare, education, etc etc, the contractor who gave him the job is conducting a 'black' operation with no records, and as a result he is gaining an unrecorded income that can't be taxed, and the list goes on. And finally, have you ever heard of an illegal immigrant getting rich? Societal conventions and extremelly low wages don't allow that. So their situation isn't exactly improving, while everyone else's situation is worsening (due to higher taxes). In the end, Greece would become as much of a shithole as that poor guy's country of origin, and as a result more illegal immigration would occur. It's not like it didn't happen after WWI and II. When you repatriate illegal immigrants, you cut off a significant 'fuel supply' for paraeconomy, lower crime rates (the more poor people that exist, the more it will occur, it's hardly their fault) and restrict diseases (again, illegal immigrants live in terrible conditions and don't have to pass medical tests). Other than repatriating illegal immigrants what do you suggest? How are you going to put a stop at paraeconomy and still have people who can't be taxed live within your borders?

[QUOTE=FalconKrunch;37105894]What's wrong with departing [B]ILLEGAL[/B] immigrants?[/QUOTE] There's nothing wrong with it as such. The 'wrong' is in these things: Pandering to racists, who want to blame illegals for all the country's problems. Using illegal immigration as a decoy issue so politicians can avoid dealing with the real problems. Wreaking havoc on innocent people's lives("More than 6,000 people have been detained, though most were released"). We do it here in the US too and it's just as dumb. The poor and/or illegal and/or minorities have NO say in what happens to the country. Political power, where the decision making happens, is determined by WEALTH. Illegals have not, and can not, create or perpetuate Greece's problems.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;37107863]what it's not as though they're all going to zerg rush into greece then once that sinks they all pile into another country at once they'd spread out at least[/QUOTE] It certainly does feel like a zerg rush right now. As much as the French and the Germans, with their much more powerful economies complain about immigration, I haven't seen them have as many immigrants as Greece or Italy. The spreading doesn't seem to be that fair right now. :v: Don't forget that as the situation worsens in Greece, more native citizens will, themselves become immigrants, some illegal. It's something that has occured in similar situations in earlier greek history. Greece was as much a shithole in the 1920s, or the 1950s (since Germany didn't pay the WW2 war reparations, and the national bank was emptied after the invasion) as Pakistan is right now. There's no guarantee it doesn't end up like a similar shithole once more.

[QUOTE=Rather Not;37108130]It certainly does feel like a zerg rush right now. As much as the French and the German, with their much more powerful economies complain about immigration, I haven't seen them have as many immigrants as Greece or Italy. Don't forget that as the situation worsens in Greece, more native citizens will, themselves become immigrants, some illegal. It's something that has occured in similar situations in earlier greek history.[/QUOTE] from this source: [URL]http://www.indexmundi.com/greece/demographics_profile.html[/URL] Greece had a population of 11,304,000 people in 2011. The population was 93% greek, 7% foreign citizens. I really doubt there is a significant amount of illegal immigrants in Greece, so much that they are doing anything to the economy. I think that is much more likely that you have fallen into the pandering politicians do in order to shift blame from actual reasons why the Greek economy is shit onto the immigrants.

[QUOTE=Rather Not;37107389] Actually, there are plenty of Greek cleaners. Mostly female. [/QUOTE] I think we're a bit lost here, I'm mostly arguing that illegal immigrant force is bad for actual Greek work force and a drain on the system. Undocumented work is, well - illegal as far as I know and furthermore the premises that actual native populations turn their noses away from less skilled and paid work because it is dirty or hard (that others seem to be suggesting or arguing) I think is wrong and a fabrication. The actual problem is (as I have said) that immigrants can afford to work for a poor salary as they generally do not have the same cost of living as the native population. If actual Greeks are finding it hard to get work because immigrants are a inexpensive business practice then the country has a real problem on its hands. Is that the fault of immigrants though in my opinion? No.

[QUOTE=Vasili;37108272]I think we're a bit lost here, I'm mostly arguing that illegal immigrant force is bad for actual Greek work force and a drain on the system. Undocumented work is, well - illegal as far as I know and furthermore the premises that actual native populations turn their noses away from less skilled and paid work because it is dirty or hard (that others seem to be suggesting or arguing) I think is wrong and a fabrication. The actual problem is (as I have said) that immigrants can afford to work for a poor salary as they generally do not have the same cost of living as the native population. If actual Greeks are finding it hard to get work because immigrants are a inexpensive business practice then the country has a real problem on its hands. Is that the fault of immigrants though in my opinion? No.[/QUOTE] Illegal immigrants are taking up work spots that could've been filled by natives/legal immigrants. Not only is the legal guy not getting a job, the government also doesn't get taxes since illegal immigrants aren't documented. It's not easy to provide infinite jobs so both legal and illegal people can work.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;37108357]Illegal immigrants are taking up work spots that could've been filled by natives/legal immigrants. Not only is the legal guy not getting a job, the government also doesn't get taxes since illegal immigrants aren't documented. It's not easy to provide infinite jobs so both legal and illegal people can work.[/QUOTE] Would you please prove that illegal immigrants are taking up a significant amount of jobs that natives/legal immigrants would be willing to do?

[QUOTE=Valnar;37108258] I think that is much more likely that you have fallen into the pandering politicians do in order to shift blame from actual reasons why the Greek economy is shit onto the immigrants.[/QUOTE] If your point is that the crisis is our fault, I certainly agree. And when I say 'our', I mean on a collective level, as the daily lifestyles that we had encouraged the formation of paraeconomy. Nevertheless, for the reasons I outlined above, illegal immigrants still put a considerable strain on the economy. No, sending them away won't solve the crisis, but it will cause a considerable blow to the people who use immigrants to get away with having to be taxed by the state, while making a massive income. And when I say massive, I mean it. Construction work and whatnot has several millions in profits every year, with a lot of the businesses actually running 'black operations' and being untaxable. Even if it wasn't for that, immigrants still do cause (due to poverty, I don't consider them personally responsible) higher crime rates, and when you have [URL="http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=884"]hundreds of thousands of people[/URL] who aren't taxed annually, that just worsens things.

[QUOTE=Valnar;37108439]Would you please prove that illegal immigrants are taking up a significant amount of jobs that natives/legal immigrants would be willing to do?[/QUOTE] Probably any job. Building. If you're going to say that natives are "too cool for manual labor", you're an idiot. Greece isn't exactly booming right now, any job has to go.

[QUOTE=Vasili;37108272]If actual Greeks are finding it hard to get work because immigrants are a inexpensive business practice then the country has a real problem on its hands. Is that the fault of immigrants though in my opinion? No.[/QUOTE] Then I think that we are in agreement. Sorry for the earlier miscommunication.