Greece to deport 1,600 illegal immigrants - "We cannot afford an invasion of immigrants"
96 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Rather Not;37108038]My point is that if everyone with the means and motives to break the law and come to illegally work in Greece actually did so, paraeconomy would flourish and undermine the real tax-able economy even further, which is what caused the crisis in the first place. Paraeconomy, corruption, and the inability of the state to gain money from taxes, which is a direct outcome of the first two.
When an illegal immigrant is hired, his payment (as it is illegal) can't be taxed, he or she, as a person can't be taxed for socialized healthcare, education, etc etc, the contractor who gave him the job is conducting a 'black' operation with no records, and as a result he is gaining an unrecorded income that can't be taxed, and the list goes on.
And finally, have you ever heard of an illegal immigrant getting rich? Societal conventions and extremelly low wages don't allow that. So their situation isn't exactly improving, while everyone else's situation is worsening (due to higher taxes). In the end, Greece would become as much of a shithole as that poor guy's country of origin, and as a result more illegal immigration would occur. It's not like it didn't happen after WWI and II.
When you repatriate illegal immigrants, you cut off a significant 'fuel supply' for paraeconomy, lower crime rates (the more poor people that exist, the more it will occur, it's hardly their fault) and restrict diseases (again, illegal immigrants live in terrible conditions and don't have to pass medical tests).
Other than repatriating illegal immigrants what do you suggest? How are you going to put a stop at paraeconomy and still have people who can't be taxed live within your borders?[/QUOTE]
I read plenty of times that by fulfiling the open jobs noone is willing to take actually boosts the economy.
We had that effect here in Germany, for decades picking aspargus was a job for Polish people and they were mostly doing it illegaly.
A few years back they cut down on that together with "German worker quotas" and that resulted in a major rise in asparagus prices because noone was willing to do it.
And we are talking about tens of thousands illegal workers here, not 1.6k.
[QUOTE=Rather Not;37108457]If your point is that the crisis is our fault, I certainly agree.
And when I say 'our', I mean on a collective level, as the daily lifestyles that we had encouraged the formation of paraeconomy. Nevertheless, for the reasons I outlined above, illegal immigrants still put a considerable strain on the economy. No, sending them away won't solve the crisis, but it will cause a considerable blow to the people who use immigrants to get away with having to be taxed by the state, while making a massive income. And when I say massive, I mean it.
Construction work and whatnot has several millions in profits every year, with a lot of the businesses actually running 'black operations' and being untaxable. Even if it wasn't for that, immigrants still do cause (due to poverty, I don't consider them personally responsible) higher crime rates, and when you have [URL="http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=884"]hundreds of thousands of people[/URL] who aren't taxed annually, that just worsens things.[/QUOTE]
Again you are talking about a portion of the population that makes up only a couple percent of the total population, that generally take jobs that are extremely undesirable.
What I am saying is that all of this fuss over illegal immigration is a diversion and overblown in order to make it seem like it is an actual issue.
Also, just how much of the Greek economy is using these 'black operations'?
[QUOTE=itisjuly;37108505]Probably any job. Building. If you're going to say that natives are "too cool for manual labor", you're an idiot. Greece isn't exactly booming right now, any job has to go.[/QUOTE]
Does that mean you don't have proof that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that would be taken by citizens?
Why the fuck would you immigrate to Greece? Rich people wanting to be poorer?
[QUOTE=Killuah;37108638]I read plenty of times that by fulfiling the open jobs noone is willing to take actually boosts the economy.
We had that effect here in Germany, for decades picking aspargus was a job for Polish people and they were mostly doing it illegaly.
A few years back they cut down on that together with "German worker quotas" and that resulted in a major rise in asparagus prices because noone was willing to do it.
And we are talking about tens of thousands illegal workers here, not 1.6k.[/QUOTE]
Illegal workers or immigrants?
Don't forget that the main problem here is that 90% of EU's illegal immigrants pass through Greece, with some staying there, along with their families. Without being taxed. That must be at least a few billions from taxes that could be secured.
At the same time, your analogy isn't very fair. On one hand, you have the rising unemployment rate of 22.6%. People could choose to stay unemployed (and starve) or work in construction. Whereas, Germany has an unemployment rate of 6.8%. Even so, I'm sure that there are more options than asparagus picking.
[QUOTE=Pantz76;37107640]Wow, there is no way all of these racist comments would be getting "agrees" if this was about illegal immigration in America. I guess its ok to be angry about illegal immigration in Europe, but not in the US.[/QUOTE]
Yeah
United States to deport 1,600 illegal immigrants - "We cannot afford an invasion of immigrants"
x34 winners
[QUOTE=Killuah;37108638]I read plenty of times that by fulfiling the open jobs noone is willing to take actually boosts the economy.
We had that effect here in Germany, for decades picking aspargus was a job for Polish people and they were mostly doing it illegaly.
A few years back they cut down on that together with "German worker quotas" and that resulted in a major rise in asparagus prices because noone was willing to do it.
And we are talking about tens of thousands illegal workers here, not 1.6k.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much this. Immigrants are more than happy to do the gruntwork. Comparative advantage is what a person is good at. Opportunity cost is the cost of the next best choice of purchase. An engineer's, whose comparative advantage is engineering, time is worth about $50 an hour. The opportunity cost of an immigrant mowing an engineer's lawn is $50 in the fact that not hiring the immigrant would take an hour of the engineer's time. The engineer could hire a immigrant to do it for $10 and generate $40 for the economy.
"The influx of workers willing to work for less decreases my ability to get job." This is true if you work for minimum wage, however, the the lack of low paying jobs are a good thing for an economy. People are free to go on and do something bigger with their lives, and that creates wealth. You can observe this historically, when farm machines took agricultural jobs in the 20's people got better jobs in manufacturing and the standard of living increased. There are many examples.
[QUOTE=Valnar;37108702]Again you are talking about a portion of the population that makes up only a couple percent of the total population, that generally take jobs that are extremely undesirable.[/quote]
In 2010 alone, there were 130,000 illegal immigrants [I]detained[/I]. Today, whatever the number is, it's certainly a considerable portion of the population. The thing is, as small as it may look in percentages, these are billions that are being lost, when the country desperately needs them.
[quote]What I am saying is that all of this fuss over illegal immigration is a diversion and overblown in order to make it seem like it is an actual issue.[/quote]
It goes without saying that most political moves aim for vote fishing. That doesn't mean that the issue behind them isn't very real.
While immigration isn't even one of the main contributing factors for the crisis, it doesn't mean that it's another burden taxpayers have to carry.
[quote]Also, just how much of the Greek economy is using these 'black operations'?[/QUOTE]
Paraeconomy is huge in pretty much sector you'll find. I'm sure that there are some accurate projections out there, but I can't recall them off the top of my head.
EDIT:
OK, everybody. I have to head out now, as I have to wake up early tomorrow. If you want to continue the debate and whatnot, you can always PM me. G'night!
[QUOTE=Pantz76;37107640]Wow, there is no way all of these racist comments would be getting "agrees" if this was about illegal immigration in America. I guess its ok to be angry about illegal immigration in Europe, but not in the US.[/QUOTE]
europeans are the most xenophobic motherfuckers on the planet
[QUOTE=Lazor;37110336]europeans are the most xenophobic motherfuckers on the planet[/QUOTE]
You'd think that the combination of living in a wealthy, civilized country, and being able to drive for just 2 hours in any direction and end up in a country with a different language and culture would make you more tolerant.
Guess not.
[QUOTE=Vasili;37106068]So you have Greeks out of work while the immigrants take the jobs?[/QUOTE]
yes.
Wouldn't deporting thousands of illegal immigrants in Greece cripple the economy?
I don't know how it is over there but here in America our economy is built upon cheap less-than-minimum-wage labor that illegal immigrants provide. As bad as it sounds, deporting thousands of illegal immigrants here would be a disaster for the economy.
[QUOTE=dass;37106384]Please Portugal, do the same with that filthy gypsy scum. They are nothing short of horrible parasites that make ACTUAL parasites a blessing.[/QUOTE]
Anti-zyganism everyone, it's the acceptable prejudice!
I live in Greece and I must say that the immigration problem is quite interesting. There are thousands of Turkish and Eastern Europeans here that are in a lot worse of a situation that most Greeks. Little do people know is that Greeks do not like hiring non-Greek workers unless it's Eastern European women for bars, clubs, etc.
I've been to some of the bigger cities in the world and haven't seen so many poor people as I have here in the city of Chania. Though, I have to say Rome's street corners pretty much had at least one poor gypsy woman on it.
[QUOTE=Megafan;37111231]Anti-zyganism everyone, it's the acceptable prejudice![/QUOTE]
It is scary to see so many people agreeing with that kind of hate speech.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;37106790]yeah man someone should put up camps for them somewhere
oh wait lol[/QUOTE]
I agree, we need a final solution to the Gypsy question.
[QUOTE=Killuah;37107388]I don't get it. The only people in danger from illegal immigrants are basically skilless day to day labor workers., all the middle class jobs would never go to an illegal guy, how the fuck will this do anything?
It's a populistic move, everyone knows that the right wing gains power in bad times and this is nothing but a move to catch stupid idiots votes.[/QUOTE]
This is pretty fucking offensive. So just because it doesn't affect the middle class but the lower ones it doesn't matter? Go tell that to Greek people relying on day to day labor to feed themselves and / or their family.
[QUOTE=barraclogh;37111977]I agree, we need a final solution to the Gypsy question.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/images/adolf-hitler.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=barraclogh;37111977]I agree, we need a final solution to the Gypsy question.[/QUOTE]
Oh come on, now you're just being ridiculous.
why is it people have to keep explaining illegal immigration?
illegal immigrants only come to a country when there's a need for them. not the other way around.
[QUOTE=barraclogh;37111977]I agree, we need a final solution to the Gypsy question.[/QUOTE]
confirmed satire
[QUOTE=dass;37106384]Please Portugal, do the same with that filthy gypsy scum. They are nothing short of horrible parasites that make ACTUAL parasites a blessing.[/QUOTE]
Don't you western Europeans send back the gypsies! We already have enough! Just keep them, KEEP THEM FOR GOD'S SAKE
They are all humans and I don't reallly want to prefer any locals over immigrants, especially after working with people from Hungary every day and knowing many of the well fed lazy bastards that you people call "locals" and that do nothing but leech of the social system while some of the most interesting people I know come from other countries, Syria and Uganda for example.
Europe is incredibly rich and it may be idealistic but when people are flocking here I see it as a challenge and a compliment, not a danger.
[QUOTE=thisispain;37112326]why is it people have to keep explaining illegal immigration?
illegal immigrants only come to a country when there's a need for them. not the other way around.[/QUOTE]
I don't really get your argument.
What do you mean 'a need for them'? Illegal immigration occurs simply because there is unemployment and generally a worse quality of life in the country of origin. Saying that illegal immigrants only come to other countries when they are 'needed' makes it sound like it's an organized thing.
It isn't. It quite literally is just some hungry people travelling from country to country in hope of finding a job.
[QUOTE=Killuah;37118561]Europe is incredibly rich and it may be idealistic but when people are flocking here[B] I see it as a challenge[/B] and a compliment, not a danger.[/QUOTE]
So, you do accept that illegal immigrants can cause trouble to domestic economies?
I'm sure that it's not a danger for all economies. But when an economy is dropping off the hill, it's not a good idea to add more weight to it.
[QUOTE=Lazor;37116616]i hope you die a terrible death[/QUOTE]
holy shit dude
[QUOTE=Rather Not;37118638] Illegal immigration occurs simply because there is unemployment and generally a worse quality of life in the country of origin.[/QUOTE]
there's a demand for it, it's why some immigrants will go to one place and not another.
the best example is the United States. it's dangerous and difficult to get into the US, yet people will gladly do it because they know the demand for their labour is there.
[QUOTE=thisispain;37119248]there's a demand for it, it's why some immigrants will go to one place and not another.
the best example is the United States. it's dangerous and difficult to get into the US, yet people will gladly do it because they know the demand for their labour is there.[/QUOTE]
ΟΚ. Ι can see your point about the US, but it's wrong to generalize for immigration in general.
In Greece, a lot of immigrants stay unemployed, because even the occupations that were thought immigrant-exclusive have been saturated by other illegal immigrants, and they can of course not find any legal employment. Therefore, other than the fact that Greece can be used as the gateway into Europe and that the quality of life is much better than the Middle East they don't have any reason to come here, seeing as the 'demand' for them has been diminishing rather rapidly.
[QUOTE=thisispain;37119248]there's a demand for it, it's why some immigrants will go to one place and not another.
the best example is the United States. it's dangerous and difficult to get into the US, yet people will gladly do it because they know the demand for their labour is there.[/QUOTE]
proximity and ease of getting in is also a factor though
[QUOTE=Rather Not;37118638]So, you do accept that illegal immigrants can cause trouble to domestic economies?
I'm sure that it's not a danger for all economies. But when an economy is dropping off the hill, it's not a good idea to add more weight to it.[/QUOTE]
Since illegal immigration is the problem, there is only one obvious solution: amnesty for all illegal immigrants, requiring them to get documents and become legal immigrants. See, problem solved!
On a different note, immigrants (even illegal ones, but more often legal ones) set up business that provide jobs - often to other immigrants. It's not like immigrant populations are magical drains on economies, acting completely different than citizens. Unless Greece makes it so difficult to setup a business that immigrants simply could not do so, removing illegal immigrants will have very little actual effect on their economy.
[QUOTE=Rather Not;37119750]ΟΚ. Ι can see your point about the US, but it's wrong to generalize for immigration in general.
In Greece, a lot of immigrants stay unemployed, because even the occupations that were thought immigrant-exclusive have been saturated by other illegal immigrants, and they can of course not find any legal employment. Therefore, other than the fact that Greece can be used as the gateway into Europe and that the quality of life is much better than the Middle East they don't have any reason to come here, seeing as the 'demand' for them has been diminishing rather rapidly.[/QUOTE]
Isn't it also possible that a lot of immigrants stay unemployed because employers won't hire them because they are foreign?
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