[QUOTE=Cone;37356815]okay, so what, exactly, is so impossible to notice that could also potentially lead to euthanasia? locked-in syndrome is very obvious, as is depression and the majority of terminal illnesses. what could a doctor possibly miss about these things that another wouldn't find, and vice-verse?
"oh yeah that isn't terminal cancer it's the common cold I can fix that in a week", or "OH SNAP THAT HEADACHE IS A SIGN OF INCURABLE DEPRESSION" are just two incredibly unlikely scenarios for trained doctors to cause[/QUOTE]
and they're two radically different things
ones an incurable illness and another is a personal issue
I'd say if you have absolutely no choice and your life is unbearable, IE, like locked-in syndrome, read the [url=http://www.wisefoolpress.com/]Jed McKenna Trilogy[/url] at all costs.
It's not self-help, it's self-annihilation.
It's not nice.. It's painful, it spurs emotional turmoil and internal anarchy, and triggers a conflagration of your entire perspective, world-views, understanding of anything and idea of self.. but I honestly cannot recommend reading anything more.
Seriously, it will fuck you up.
[img]http://www.wisefoolpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Maya2.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37356720]It's like oyu are assuming doctors are unfailable, what kind of assumption is this, by this logic every cop is perfect and shouldn't even be questioned when he shoots that 12 year old that scratched his car.[/QUOTE]
holy fuck you make even worse analogies than me
So saying that following current laws and putting proper laws in place to legalize euthanasia is stupid?
Oh wait but you just said that that's not what you are saying but you are now saying it again, so you are saying we shouldn't have a system or laws? Or aren't you?
Also how is this even a view on the world?!
[editline]22nd August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cone;37356836]holy fuck you make even worse analogies than me[/QUOTE]
Ok how is this different please explain oh wait you aren't explaining yourself at all I'm jsut fucking dumb and locked away in my own world.
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37356851]So saying that following current laws and putting proper laws in place to legalize euthanasia is stupid?
Oh wait but you just said that that's not what you are saying but you are now saying it again, so you are saying we shouldn't have a system or laws? Or aren't you?
Also how is this even a view on the world?![/QUOTE]
"So saying that following current laws and putting proper laws in place to legalize euthanasia is stupid?"
that's what I was trying to agree with Mr. Selective reading
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37356851]Ok how is this different please explain oh wait you aren't explaining yourself at all I'm jsut fucking dumb and locked away in my own world.[/QUOTE]
well
yes you are actually
Denying a man to live a life of pain where he can't even move a single body part is more inhumane then any torture modern society has. It's [I]his body[/I], it's [I]his life[/I], he should be able to do what he pleases with his body. England has got some fucked up laws to force him to live through that kind of pain.
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37356755]Oh ok? Why isn't everyone rallying for the "true pain euthanization" bill right now?[/QUOTE]
It's funny cause pretty much the whole of the UK was on his side.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;37356876]Denying a man to live a life of pain where he can't even move a single body part is more inhumane then any torture modern society has. It's [I]his body[/I], it's [I]his life[/I], he should be able to do what he pleases with his body. England has got some fucked up laws to force him to live through that kind of pain.[/QUOTE]
Almost nowhere do you have the right to do what you want with your body, suicide is forbidden in most places. The main argument behind euthanasia is, that most people still have the choice because no one can really stop them from suiciding, while people that crave helped suicide are the ones that can only make the choice, but not go through with it physically.
Both the fact that suicide is illegal and that often their judgement is assumed to not be trusted make euthanasia an extremely complicated issue that is hard to legalize without revisiting suicide and many other things about others not being allowed to ever even penetrate another's skin or harm them in any other way, unless special circumstances like being a doctor or acting in self defense allow it.
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37356851]Ok how is this different please explain oh wait you aren't explaining yourself at all I'm jsut fucking dumb and locked away in my own world.[/QUOTE]
okay. for one thing, a guy with a gun has an infinitely larger space for error than a doctor not noticing something. in fact, a guy with a gun fucking up - except in very few select circumstances - can never fix his error (like shooting a dude in the face), whereas a doctor missing a symptom can go back and find it again during his patient's next check-up.
for another, cops do very rarely shoot kids for trivial stuff to begin with, so if anything equating a cop fucking up to a doctor fucking up helps my point. finally, I never said that doctors are infallible - I'm just making the assumption that a profession that requires an extremely in-depth knowledge of human anatomy, chemistry and biology doesn't attract the retards of our generation. in fact, I think it's safe to say that anyone who's successful in such a profession would have to be really, really smart.
ok my brain was hinting heavily that he was trolling but now my subconscious is screaming it at me
[QUOTE=J!NX;37356956]ok my brain was hinting heavily that he was trolling but now my subconscious is screaming it at me[/QUOTE]
it's not like giving another guy a good laugh is a bad thing. I'm secure enough in my person that someone having fun at my expense doesn't turn me into a gibbering wreck.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;37356905]It's funny cause pretty much the whole of the UK was on his side.[/QUOTE]
Well then it is time for the UK to fucking legalize it already, for it to come up with a concept and make it happen, however "pretty much the whole UK" could mean a few million people who got very vocal and seemed like a lot, yet the rest of the 62 million people could all be opposing it, and in a democracy there are only very few things that prevent the bigger party from winning the vote.
[QUOTE=Cone;37356970]it's not like giving another guy a good laugh is a bad thing. I'm secure enough in my person that someone having fun at my expense doesn't turn me into a gibbering wreck.[/QUOTE]
that's why I was ignoring my brain
because arguing is always extremely amusing, especially heated yelling.
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37356971]Well then it is time for the UK to fucking legalize it already, for it to come up with a concept and make it happen, however "pretty much the whole UK" could mean a few million people who got very vocal and seemed like a lot, yet the rest of the 62 million people could all be opposing it, and in a democracy there are only very few things that prevent the bigger party from winning the vote.[/QUOTE]
[quote]A YouGov poll lat week for “Dignity in Death” (what used to be called the Voluntary Euthanasia Society) found 76% of respondents supported a change in the law to allow patients with a terminal illness to receive a prescription from a doctor to allow them to commit suicide.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Cone;37356950][B]okay. for one thing, a guy with a gun has an infinitely larger space for error than a doctor not noticing something. in fact, a guy with a gun fucking up - except in very few select circumstances - can never fix his error (like shooting a dude in the face), whereas a doctor missing a symptom can go back and find it again during his patient's next check-up.[/B]
for another, cops do very rarely shoot kids for trivial stuff to begin with, so if anything equating a cop fucking up to a doctor fucking up helps my point. finally, I never said that doctors are infallible - I'm just making the assumption that a profession that requires an extremely in-depth knowledge of human anatomy, chemistry and biology doesn't attract the retards of our generation. in fact, I think it's safe to say that anyone who's successful in such a profession would have to be really, really smart.[/QUOTE]
What about a surgeon fucking up an operation? Believe it or not, most procedures don't have 90 % success rates.
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37356614]Again, I am not judging this specific case in any way.[/QUOTE]
But the issue is, you absolutely should be judging this specific case, taking into account that his life fucking [I]sucks.[/I](sucked, rather)
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37357006]What about a surgeon fucking up an operation? Believe it or not, most procedures don't have 90 % success rates.[/QUOTE]
operations? what?
we're talking about symptoms here. the closest thing to an operation that a doctor will have to perform in a check-up is a prostate exam. you don't slice people open during the weekly doctor's appointment!
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37357006]What about a surgeon fucking up an operation? Believe it or not, most procedures don't have 90 % success rates.[/QUOTE]
except that's extremely radically different.
Dumb x1 (list)
[QUOTE=CheeseMan;37356998][/QUOTE]
That's great and all, still misses a concept on where the doctor can give that prescription or not. We can assume that these 76 % would vote for it again if the line was drawn right after our locked-in man here, but many could potentially jump the boat if we are also putting less severe things in the pot. One example that you guys might be able to understand more than a headache are backpains, there are some kinds of it where you can't rest in any position without extreme pain. Now which of the people with backpains qualify and which not?
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37356971]Well then it is time for the UK to fucking legalize it already, for it to come up with a concept and make it happen, however "pretty much the whole UK" could mean a few million people who got very vocal and seemed like a lot, yet the rest of the 62 million people could all be opposing it, and in a democracy there are only very few things that prevent the bigger party from winning the vote.[/QUOTE]
No, literally everyone I know thought it was a disgrace that he wasn't able to have some help in dying, there has been nothing on the news or anywhere else where there has been opposition and if there is any then they're incredibly quiet about it.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;37357062]No, literally everyone I know thought it was a disgrace that he wasn't able to have some help in dying, there has been nothing on the news or anywhere else where there has been opposition and if there is any then they're incredibly quiet about it.[/QUOTE]
Everyone I know is usually a bad way to judge things, because you often mostly know people that you get along with. Not that this might not be true here, I didn't follow what kind of reaction the UK public had to this or anything, just trying to make clear that things aren't always as they seem.
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37357050]That's great and all, still misses a concept on where the doctor can give that prescription or not. We can assume that these 76 % would vote for it again if the line was drawn right after our locked-in man here, but many could potentially jump the boat if we are also putting less severe things in the pot. One example that you guys might be able to understand more than a headache are backpains, there are some kinds of it where you can't rest in any position without extreme pain. Now which of the people with backpains qualify and which not?[/QUOTE]
Oh my god. Just admit you're out of things to say. You're literally arguing against a minor poll used in evidence to tear apart your point, which itself was a sub-point to a sub-point to your original point, which I might add has been ravaged so badly even you're avoiding touching it. The fact of the matter is, if it turned out with 100% accuracy that all of those people had defined ideas of what euthanasia should and shouldn't constitute, you'd still find some bullshit point to nitpick.
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37357080]Everyone I know is usually a bad way to judge things, because you often mostly know people that you get along with. Not that this might not be true here, I didn't follow what kind of reaction the UK public had to this or anything, just trying to make clear that things aren't always as they seem.[/QUOTE]
I know anecdotal evidence is a bad way to judge things, but what I'm saying is that there is literally no one trying to stop this, it was one guy wanting to die with an overwhelming amount of support against the courts, the only opposition I've seen is from people arguing that the change in the law could be abused so it needs to be done better, other than that there is no one stepping up to say it's wrong.
Oh ok what's that original point I'm avoiding touching? Because I am not.
[editline]22nd August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;37357120]I know anecdotal evidence is a bad way to judge things, but what I'm saying is that there is literally no one trying to stop this, it was one guy wanting to die with an overwhelming amount of support against the courts, the only opposition I've seen is from people arguing that the change in the law could be abused so it needs to be done better, other than that there is no one stepping up to say it's wrong.[/QUOTE]
Well that's good then, I am not doing anything else here, but say that I understand the decision of the court and believe it is right, because as right as such a law change might be, I believe it should also be [B]done[/B] right.
Jesus christ I haven't even contributed anything to this thread and I can already tell that you're just flailing around arguing over nothing.
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37357133]Well that's good then, I am not doing anything else here, but say that I understand the decision of the court and believe it is right, because as right as such a law change might be, I believe it should also be [B]done[/B] right.[/QUOTE]
so you want the law changed but you don't believe that the government is capable of auditing for illness (mental or physical) in a satisfactory manner? I've got one question for you:
[I][B]who the fuck else is there to do it?[/B][/I]
I mean, you don't trust doctors (whether they're on the government payroll or not), government officials, surgeons, or basically anyone who is actually trained to search for symptoms of illness. so, essentially, you're saying that you think that the law should go to keep yourself from looking like a dick whilst simultaneously saying that nobody could ever do it well, and thus that changing the law would be pointless.
you're being retarded, dude.
I wasn't even arguing, I simply made a point that it's not the systems fault that no one cared enough before to deal with the shitton of problems related to legalizing euthanasia.
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37357204]I wasn't even arguing, I simply made a point that it's not the systems fault that no one cared enough before to deal with the shitton of problems related to legalizing euthanasia.[/QUOTE]
so you're saying that nobody cared before people had reason to care.
no shit Sherlock
[QUOTE=SEKCobra;37357204]I wasn't even arguing, I simply made a point that it's not the systems fault that no one cared enough before to deal with the shitton of problems related to legalizing euthanasia.[/QUOTE]
umm yeah it kind of is the system, not the people
[editline]22nd August 2012[/editline]
for once
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