[QUOTE=Keyblockor1;46364104]I appreciate it that Anita Sarkeesian is coming out into the Mainstream because that, although she will give her own opinion, she will also be open for more retorts against her information.
To play the devils advocate, one doesn't need to play video games to critique them. However, Anita Sarkeesian isn't an exemplary figure to be a figurehead for the movement as her work ethic, her rhetoric, Numerous Illegitimate characteristics of herself in relation to her actions and research have made the movement not necessarily nice but a fraud who's full on misinformation and cherry picking.[/QUOTE]
"You don't need to read books to critique them." "You don't need to eat food to critique it" How can you critique something you don't partake in?
[QUOTE=GamerKiwi;46365238]"You don't need to read books to critique them." "You don't need to eat food to critique it" How can you critique something you don't partake in?[/QUOTE]
uhh yeah you can, its called judging a book by its cover, its a legitimate tactic
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46365191]then I suggest you turn a slightly more critical eye towards what she talks about and what she says because she misrepresents and takes a lot of things out of context to make her points, and while some people believe that method of arguing is valid, I think you have to turn a critical eye on those arguments in even more detail to see "Does context matter here".[/QUOTE]
It's not like I take every word she says as truth. I remember some game I payed enough attention to when my husband was playing being misrepresented. Watch Dogs I think? It was something about the game rewarding you for killing helpless women, but I'm pretty sure that just gives you bad guy points or something. The Mirror's Edge thing just seems like the exact opposite of the message she's trying to send, so I'm pretty skeptical about reading a sentence that implies that without other context.
[QUOTE=Swilly;46365122]The problem is that currently, and by currently I mean since 2002, the idea of 'toxic masculinity' has not only been disputed heavily but many experts and scholars in gendered studies are actually stating that we don't even know what masculinity is.
And by that I mean, its definition has changed so rapidly since the 80's that its very much become like femininity and so feminists still using masculinity as a catch all are not only wrong but giving a sexist view point.[/QUOTE]
i can only speak for myself here, but what i think people like anita sarkessian mean by "toxic masculinity" is basically rigid male-centric standards that shape the mindsets of men and women alike, and how "male" traits (intelligence, aggressiveness, dominance, etc) are so much more valued and emphasized in culture.
it can be toxic because it drives social outcasts like elliot rodger and marc lepine to fall back into this ideal "macho guy" persona that culture values in order to justify their inefficacy. elliot rodger didn't think that he was wrong for a second, instead, he saw himself as the wronged party (he always referred to what he would do as "retribution") because he felt entitled to female attention (again, an idea perpetuated by our culture), basically "taking away" something that belonged to him, to his eyes.
but yeah, that tweet is a pretty badly worded and vague statement and i can see how it could be understood in other ways, i guess it just comes down to what you want to believe in the end. i don't think people's opinions can be swayed at this point.
[QUOTE=GamerKiwi;46365238]"You don't need to read books to critique them." "You don't need to eat food to critique it" How can you critique something you don't partake in?[/QUOTE]
By adhering to the Right(TM) Political Ideology in your critique, of course!*
*The exact parameters of the Right(TM) Political Ideology may vary
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46365215]using the ticking clock of impending mass shootings as fuel for your political crusade is also pretty fucking disgusting
it obscures the issue and poisons the conversation with fear and overreaction. Now no one is actually trying to figure out how to curb the rate of mass shooting, now everyone is freaking out because if they don't start tearing down "[B]access to guns[/B]" people are going to die.
there is a good fucking reason that claims need to be supported before action is taken.[/QUOTE]
Still the same emotional appeal. We can't talk about ideas of masculinity or how young men are either discouraged socially or unable economically to access counseling with mental health professionals because it would be "obscuring the issue", whatever that means.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;46365257]Still the same emotional appeal. We can't talk about ideas of masculinity or how young men are either discouraged socially or unable economically to access counseling with mental health professionals because it would be "obscuring the issue", whatever that means.[/QUOTE]
how could anyone possibly be expected to have a reasonable discussion with the threat of "every day that people don't agree with me, more people will die" looming ever overhead?
This is why you can't assume a conclusion without proof, it excludes discussion and doubt because of the stakes.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;46365253]i can only speak for myself here, but what i think people like anita sarkessian mean by "toxic masculinity" is basically rigid male-centric standards that shape the mindsets of men and women alike, and how "male" traits (intelligence, aggressiveness, dominance, etc) are so much more valued and emphasized in culture.
it can be toxic because it drives social outcasts like elliot rodger and marc lepine to fall back into this ideal "macho guy" persona that culture values in order to justify their inefficacy. elliot rodger didn't think that he was wrong for a second, instead, he saw himself as the wronged party (he always referred to what he would do as "retribution") because he felt entitled to female attention (again, an idea perpetuated by our culture), basically "taking away" something that belonged to him, to his eyes.
but yeah, that tweet is a pretty badly worded and vague statement and i can see how it could be understood in other ways, i guess it just comes down to what you want to believe in the end. i don't think people's opinions can be swayed at this point.[/QUOTE]
Elliott Rodger was a narcissistic psychopath. boiling what he did down to "he killed people because of masculinity" is the prime example of what I'm talking about. It's twisting the narrative and ignoring other prominent factors of the case.
this is why sensationalist statements like that are abhorrent
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46365346]Elliott Rodger was a narcissistic psychopath. boiling what he did down to "he killed people because of masculinity" is the prime example of what I'm talking about. It's twisting the narrative and ignoring other prominent factors of the case.
this is why sensationalist statements like that are abhorrent[/QUOTE]
You're kind of boiling down what he did too.
Mental illness isn't a silver bullet explanation, these kind of things tend to involve other catalysts and the idea of toxic masculinity could be one of those other possible catalysts.
want to become a martyr and become successful at having your really horrible ideologies known?
make everyone utterly HATE you and play the victim a lot. You'll get plenty of people to support you.
You guys are whining and it's funny
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Why reply" - Craptasket))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Flyingman356;46364855]What's bullshit about this though? It's true that men are disproportionately responsible for mass-shootings, I think it's as logical a conclusion as any to blame the awful expectations placed on them by the gender role system for this. I'm not trying to start a shitstorm on this, I'm just wondering what other people's opinions on it are. She's clearly not talking about video games here, it's just a suggestion about what might be the cause of this disproportionate representation.[/QUOTE]
It's a shitstorm because "she" tweeted it by psychically telepathing the message to jon macintosh whom typed it out an hour after a school shooting occurred for which there was no context to make any kind of judgement about the shooter's motives or mentality.
[QUOTE=Valnar;46365393]You're kind of boiling down what he did too.
Mental illness isn't a silver bullet explanation, these kind of things tend to involve other catalysts and the idea of toxic masculinity could be one of those other possible catalysts.[/QUOTE]
the fact that there are other factors is why I'm so opposed to immediately attributing it to any single one without evidence.
[QUOTE=usaokay;46365398]Holy shit, yes.
Bringing harassment to her only makes her more of a [I]martyr-esque[/I] victim who is trying to fight for equality in gaming. If people just shut the fuck up about her, then maybe she wouldn't be largely famous.
As I keep saying, if you don't like the person and their views and whathaveyou, then don't talk about it. Keep silent and they will go away.[/QUOTE]
That only works when the person is a small fry. With Sarkeesian the damage is already done, so the best you can do if you disagree with her to to point out her failings at research and critique [i]without attacking her personally.[/i]
The show will be on in a couple of minutes. Is anyone here going to actually watch it?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46365346]Elliott Rodger was a narcissistic psychopath. boiling what he did down to "he killed people because of masculinity" is the prime example of what I'm talking about. It's twisting the narrative and ignoring other prominent factors of the case.
this is why sensationalist statements like that are abhorrent[/QUOTE]
as a psychologist i find it pretty abhorrent that mentally ill people like elliot rodger are reduced to their pathology without ever taking external factors into account. dismissing dangerous murderers as just "crazy guys" and "psychos" is exactly the problem western society has with mental health. they just leave it at that.
i never said he did what he did "because of masculinity" i said people like rodger grow up believing this sort of thing to justify themselves. they literally don't see what they do as wrong because they take it to heart. "toxic masculinity" didn't make him shoot a bunch of people dead, but it sure as heck didn't help.
i've only been arguing from my perspective and only things i know about, it's pretty shitty of you to accuse me of using tragic episodes like rodger's massacre to push some agenda when all i'm doing is trying to articulate my viewpoint as best as possible to avoid vitriol.
It's habbening right now guyz
[QUOTE=quinaquin;46365177]I'm not a supporter I don't think, I just like her videos. I watched them once when they come out, but don't remember a lot beyond what she talked about and her arguments.[/QUOTE]
[quote] her videos are great you should watch them [/quote]
What are they about, what topics do they cover?
[quote] fuck if I know, they're great [/quote]
:|
Here we gooo
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;46365464]as a psychologist i find it pretty abhorrent that mentally ill people like elliot rodger are reduced to their pathology without ever taking external factors into account.
i never said he did what he did "because of masculinity" i said people like rodger grow up believing this sort of thing to justify themselves. they literally don't see what they do as wrong because they take it to heart.
i've only been arguing from my perspective and only things i know about, it's pretty shitty of you to accuse me of using tragic episodes like rodger's massacre to push some agenda when all i'm doing is trying to articulate my viewpoint as best as possible.[/QUOTE]
I never meant to imply that you were trying to twist the narrative. I was using the case that you were referring to to point out why statements like the one made by Anita are harmful.
I also didn't mean to imply that his pathology is the only important part of the case, I meant to point to it as one of many other clear factors that lead to what happened other than his ideological beliefs.
I'm not trying to argue either side, but are they really denying Zoey Quinn and her ex, how the whole Gamer Gate shit even started, to focus on the harassment?
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;46365517]I'm not trying to argue either side, but are they really denying Zoey Quinn and her ex, how the whole Gamer Gate shit even started, to focus on the harassment?[/QUOTE]
eron has at this point been masterfully painted as a disgusting and vindictive manipulator who faked his own abuse to get back at his girlfriend
It might be a bit too much to further drag him through the mud on national television when he's been put under a gag order and can't defend himself, but I honestly wouldn't put it past some people.
The real shitstorm has just begun.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46365497]I never meant to imply that you were trying to twist the narrative. I was using the case that you were referring to to point out why statements like the one made by Anita are harmful.
I also didn't mean to imply that his pathology is the only important part of the case, I meant to point to it as one of many other clear factors that lead to what happened other than his ideological beliefs.[/QUOTE]
But the thing is, the whole point she is making (and its better seen in the article she posted in her next tweet, because there is only so much you can say in a tweet) is that masculinity is possibly linked with mental illness. That these gender roles exacerbate or create issues within people and how that can be one explanation for why so many of these spree killers are disproportionately male.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46365553]eron has at this point been masterfully painted as a disgusting and vindictive manipulator who faked his own abuse to get back at his girlfriend
It might be a bit too much to further drag him through the mud on national television when he's been put under a gag order and can't defend himself, but I honestly wouldn't put it past some people.[/QUOTE]
I see your point, but damn. The painting is really, really fucked up.
apparently no men were attacked. Let's forget syringes sent to Milo, and fire tucks sent to King of /Pol/'s house.
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;46365517]I'm not trying to argue either side, but are they really denying Zoey Quinn and her ex, how the whole Gamer Gate shit even started, to focus on the harassment?[/QUOTE]
every mainstream media outlet that has covered gamergate has had the same paper-thin analysis of the drama. they know they're gonna get a lot of attention just by mentioning it. and i'll be honest, it worked. i wouldn't have watched the show tonight if gamgergate wasn't the topic.
that wasn't that bad at all
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