• Iran claims Bin Laden was dead long before raid
    218 replies, posted
[QUOTE=CjienX;29791659]Or, you know, maybe I'm getting the questions. But if you can't even replicate the patience of a toddler I'm not going to even bother.[/QUOTE] Sorry, I didn't have any evidence that you were getting the questions, so I assumed you were ignoring me.
[QUOTE=TH89;29791660]By the way, CjienX, the reason I'm asking for a list of questions is because if I just answer them as you post them you'll just keep posting more questions and never getting to answering my question![/QUOTE] Well let's give the man a little time to gather them.
[QUOTE=CjienX;29791621]What the fuck do they have to lose? They're proving that he's dead.[/QUOTE] Have you not read why they're not releasing the photos? They have logical reasons, unlike your dreadful arguments.
[QUOTE=CjienX;29791621]What the fuck do they have to lose? They're proving that he's dead.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/05/04/afghanistan-pakistan-osama-bin-laden.html[/url]
Stop asking him questions guys he needs to get his list of questions so I can answer them so he will engage me in debate >:c [editline]13th May 2011[/editline] You FUCKIN M Y SHIT UP
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29791681]Have you not read why they're not releasing the photos? They have logical reasons, unlike your dreadful arguments.[/QUOTE] The only reason I've seen is that it's too gory for the public to see. Not only do I highly doubt that it's too much for people to handle, but if it is nobody's being forced to look at it.
so he's bin dead for a while?
[QUOTE=CjienX;29791697]The only reason I've seen is that it's too gory for the public to see. Not only do I highly doubt that it's too much for people to handle, but if it is nobody's being forced to look at it.[/QUOTE] Yes, that's one part of the argument. Keep going about what releasing the photos would do. (other than satisfy your belief that it would be suitable evidence to his death)
[QUOTE=CjienX;29791697]The only reason I've seen is that it's too gory for the public to see. Not only do I highly doubt that it's too much for people to handle, but if it is nobody's being forced to look at it.[/QUOTE] Then that means you haven't even bothered to look at the reasons why they won't release the photos.
[QUOTE=TH89;29791694]Stop asking him questions guys he needs to get his list of questions so I can answer them so he will engage me in debate >:c [editline]13th May 2011[/editline] You FUCKIN M Y SHIT UP[/QUOTE] :sax:
[QUOTE=TH89;29791546]Explain why you think so many different organizations[/quote] specifically which ones? [quote=TH89] with no reason to cooperate with each other (and, indeed, many reasons to try to embarrass each other)[/quote] if america did falsify bin ladens death would they also go to the trouble to make it believable? [quote]In a statement posted on militant websites[i][no source][/i] and signed by “the general leadership” of Al Qaeda, the group said bin Laden’s blood “is more precious to us and to every Muslim than to be wasted in vain” and that it will soon[i][hasn't been released yet][/i] release a voice recording made by bin Laden a week before his death. [/quote] what you're saying is that al qaeda has confirmed his death, but the general public hasn't been told how to access these "jihadist forums" that contain al qaedas statements. and of course the people who posted on those sites may very well not be active members of al qaeda but rather fags spewing rhetoric. you can't take a shitty cnn article as fact, and unless you have translations of those websites with confirmation that the posters are active members of al qaeda, i won't take a news article as fact either [quote=TH89]would be cooperating to perpetrate such a massive fraud that doesn't particularly benefit any of them very much.[/quote] depends on their cost/benefit analysis, i doubt it would cost america much to fake his death and i think we may have seen a sort of morale boost from the announcement of his death [quote=TH89]If you do that, and then post a list of questions you have, I swear to god I will answer every one of them to the best of my ability. Seriously. Because I am capable of debating in good faith and making reasoned arguments. :)[/QUOTE] not that i believe america faked his death
[QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29791902]specifically which ones?[/QUOTE] -The Obama administration -The congressional committees who were privy to the operation -The news media -Al Qaeda [QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29791902]what you're saying is that al qaeda has confirmed his death, but the general public hasn't been told how to access these "jihadist forums" that contain al qaedas statements. and of course the people who posted on those sites may very well not be active members of al qaeda but rather fags spewing rhetoric. you can't take a shitty cnn article as fact, and unless you have translations of those websites with confirmation that the posters are active members of al qaeda, i won't take a news article as fact either[/QUOTE] CNN (and the other news media) have pretty damn good records of reporting things accurately. If one of them was bullshitting the others would call them out on it instantly (as has happened in the past--see the Dan Rather scandal). If you're one of those "the media is in league with the corporations and the governments and they're lying to us, man!" people then I can't really help you, though. [QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29791902]depends on their cost/benefit analysis, i doubt it would cost america much to fake his death and i think we may have seen a sort of morale boost from the announcement of his death[/QUOTE] I'm not talking about financial cost, I'm talking about the fact that the Obama administration, and anyone else involved, would be absolutely destroyed if the story were to leak. All that for a "sort of morale boost?" Not very likely.
Fuck the middle-east.
[QUOTE=Laferio;29791972]Fuck the middle-east.[/QUOTE] Fuck you, honkey.
Yeah, so TH89 pretty much answered my questions via steam and I'm starting to shift my stance on this
[QUOTE=CjienX;29792040]Yeah, so TH89 pretty much answered my questions via steam and I'm starting to shift my stance on this[/QUOTE] I'd be interested in reading the chat log. Any chance one of you can post it?
[QUOTE=itchyflakes;29792057]I'd be interested in reading the chat log. Any chance one of you can post it?[/QUOTE] [quote]10:48 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: can you actually explain why releasing the photos is such a bad thing 10:48 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: i really don't get it 10:48 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: so the taliban gets mad 10:48 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: they already vowed to attack us in retaliation 10:48 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: and they declared holy war on us before that 10:48 p.m. - TH98: yeah I can answer that 10:49 p.m. - TH98: see, the argument that "the bad guys already hate us" is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the war on terrorism is fought 10:49 p.m. - TH98: it's not by killing taliban and insurgents and al qaeda, although that is incidentally necessary to try to secure stable democratic regimes in occupied nations 10:50 p.m. - TH98: the single most effective way to combat terrorists is to deny them recruits 10:50 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: well 10:50 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: i guess that makes sense 10:50 p.m. - TH98: I'm not done 10:50 p.m. - TH98: hang on 10:50 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: oh 10:51 p.m. - TH98: their recruits are, by and large, young middle easterners who are angry at the west (rightly so, as their region has been devastated by colonialism and proxy wars by the west for the past 100 years) 10:51 p.m. - TH98: most of these young middle easterners can't get jobs, because their countries economies are in the shitter 10:52 p.m. - TH98: they are radicalized and desensitized to violence as a result of living in violent, radical islamist communities 10:52 p.m. - TH98: HOWEVER 10:52 p.m. - TH98: most of them have families. most of them have people they care about, and aspirations--many of them are pretty well educated. some are even medical students or serious scholars. 10:53 p.m. - TH98: they have a lot of reasons not to throw away their lives as terrorist holy warriors 10:53 p.m. - TH98: so basically, we want these kids to hate us as little as possible 10:55 p.m. - TH98: so to "win the hearts and minds of the people" as the mavens say, we need to build their economy so they can have jobs and feed their families, foster democracy so they have political agency and don't live under oppressive regimes, not slaughter them in accidental air strikes all the time, and (here we are) not make the impression that we disrespect their religion and way of life 10:55 p.m. - TH98: so we're not trying to avoid offending the taliban 10:55 p.m. - TH98: or al qaeda 10:55 p.m. - TH98: or any other terrorist organization 10:56 p.m. - TH98: we're trying to avoid offending the millions and millions of angry kids who have no futures and are one more insult away from signing up with one 10:56 p.m. - TH98: the end 10:56 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: i was gonna ask about dumping the body, but that pretty much applies to that too 10:56 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: honestly, i never thought about it from that point of view 10:57 p.m. - TH98: yeah, cremation is offensive to islam and a land grave has all the same problems that a grave for hitler would ahve 10:57 p.m. - TH98: there's one other reason for not releasing the photo, which is a little more bleeding-heart liberal 10:58 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: i hate to say it, but you're actually making me reconsider my stance on this 10:58 p.m. - TH98: :0 10:58 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: i'm still not satisfied as far as the DNA tests are concerned 10:59 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: but as for a counter as to why we should see photo proof I got nothing, that explanation actually makes perfect sense 11:01 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: yeah, I really got nothing 11:01 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: that even shot down the argument that the burial at sea was an islamic rite, not a muslim rite 11:03 p.m. - TH98: err 11:03 p.m. - TH98: islamic is the same thing as muslim 11:03 p.m. - TH98: synonyms 11:03 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: you can be a nonpracticing muslim though 11:03 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: i know a whole muslim family that has nothing to do with the islamic part of it 11:04 p.m. - TH98: islamic is a synonym for muslim 11:04 p.m. - TH98: if you mean an arab family, that's different, that's an ethnicity 11:04 p.m. - TH98: but "muslim" is a word for practicioners of islam 11:04 p.m. - TH98: now, "islamist" is different, that applies only to extremists 11:04 p.m. - TH98: which is kind of confusing 11:05 p.m. - TH98: but other variations of the word islam pertain to all muslims 11:05 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: well shit 11:05 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: but wait 11:05 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: I was born into a jewish family 11:05 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: techincally I'm still jewish 11:05 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: but I'm completely nonpracticing 11:06 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: couldn't the same thing apply to Osama 11:06 p.m. - TH98: jewish possibly unique in being both a religion and an ethnicity 11:06 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: I thought jewish wasn't an accepted ethnicity? 11:07 p.m. - TH98: genetically, jews have more in common with middle-easterners than with surrounding populations in which they live 11:07 p.m. - TH98: specifically we're most closely related to kurds 11:08 p.m. - TH98: closest are mizrahi (middle eastern) jews, next closest are sephardic (mediterranean) jews, and farthest are ashkenazi (european) jews 11:08 p.m. - TH98: but even though most arabs are muslims and most muslims are arabs that's not necessarily true 11:08 p.m. - TH98: there are a lot of indian muslims 11:09 p.m. - TH98: and a lot of white muslims in chechnya and the balkans 11:09 p.m. - TH98: and black muslims in the US 11:09 p.m. - TH98: bla bla bla 11:09 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: just making sure though, either way the reasoning for the burial still falls under cutting off recruits right? 11:10 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: give him an acceptable burial so they don't another thing to be mad over 11:10 p.m. - TH98: Basically. Once we've removed the threat, there's no reason to further aggravate people who were sympathetic to his cause. 11:11 p.m. - Columbia - A Groupie: well, thanks for clearing all that up [/quote] There was more conversation that went on, but that's pretty much the part where he answered my question.
[QUOTE=TH89;29791948]CNN (and the other news media) have pretty damn good records of reporting things accurately. If one of them was bullshitting the others would call them out on it instantly (as has happened in the past--see the Dan Rather scandal).[/quote] past records don't indicate that the media has done a thorough job, for the most part the media in america get their information from only a few streams. the stream in this case is SITE intelligence group, i don't believe that they've been paid off or are in league with the us, [url=http://news.siteintelgroup.com/component/content/article/5-articles-a-analysis/688-insight-into-al-qaedas-confirmation-of-bin-ladens-death]what i do believe is that they write shitty articles and i just hope their subscription area isnt as terrible[/url] [quote=TH89]If you're one of those "the media is in league with the corporations and the governments and they're lying to us, man!" people then I can't really help you, though.[/quote] yes i am a stereotypical hippie who overuses words like, "like" and "man" along with that i also smoke three times my body weight in marijuana every year. now like, the mass like media in america, man, it like operates like this: they provide content to entice viewers into watching so that they can attract companies which would like to advertise. the idea that the mass media doesn't conform to the views of american corporations which are its primary revenue stream, and that the media doesn't conform to the views of the government but more specifically the laws under which the media operates, is absolutely ridiculous. I never said that the media is conspiring with the government, to, in a way pacify the people, if you thought that I'm sorry, what I meant to say is that the media has a vested interest not to put out ideas that contradict the united states government or the sometimes irrational beliefs of the american people and, it certainly has no intention of attacking corporations. [quote]I'm not talking about financial cost, I'm talking about the fact that the Obama administration, and anyone else involved, would be absolutely destroyed if the story were to leak. All that for a "sort of morale boost?" Not very likely.[/QUOTE] well obama is a shitty president so it wouldn't be a huge surprise if he did something shitty. or on the other hand maybe there are hidden benefits to lying about his death, maybe osama was actually the second coming of jesus and they wanted to make sure god wasnt going to kill everyone for offing his son before they released the news. who knows why the government would engage in an elaborate hoax which i do not personally believe in.
[QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29792560]well obama is a shitty president so it wouldn't be a huge surprise if he did something shitty.[/QUOTE] Hahaha, that's a good one. How exactly is Obama a shitty president?
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29792686]Hahaha, that's a good one. How exactly is Obama a shitty president?[/QUOTE] to put it generally, he was elected by left leaning americans and continues to uphold the republican policies which have shat all over the american public. but also because he says stupid shit like "its okay to murder people without giving them a fair trial" all the time.
[QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29792560]they provide content to entice viewers into watching so that they can attract companies which would like to advertise.[/QUOTE] This is true. [QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29792560]the idea that the mass media doesn't conform to the views of american corporations which are its primary revenue stream[/QUOTE] "American corporations" aren't a monolithic entity. They don't share the same views, only an interest in making as much money as possible. On rare occasions, companies will "pull" ads from a given TV show, but generally only in cases where the show has caused some kind of major controversy, generally involving offensive content. Beyond that, most companies are willing to let the shows do their thing as long as they attract as many viewers as possible. [QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29792560]and that the media doesn't conform to the views of the government but more specifically the laws under which the media operates, is absolutely ridiculous.[/QUOTE] There's a big, BIG difference between the "views of the government" and the "laws under which the media operate." Media laws primarily exist to hold news organizations to standards of fairness and accuracy, to prevent tabloid-style journalism, and to stop people from swearing and showing boobies. They don't force news organizations to endorse or support the positions of the government. Obama's administration believes that his health care plan is awesome. Fox News does not agree, and is very vocal in their opposition, for example. [QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29792560]I never said that the media is conspiring with the government, to, in a way pacify the people, if you thought that I'm sorry, what I meant to say is that the media has a vested interest not to put out ideas that contradict the united states government or the sometimes irrational beliefs of the american people and, it certainly has no intention of attacking corporations.[/QUOTE] If the government or a corporation is engaging in corrupt or illegal behavior, it is absolutely in the interest of the media to report on it. The White House has some small amount of leverage insofar as they can threaten to revoke press credentials or be less forthcoming with information in the future, but the relationship between the White House press corps and the White House communications department is very collegial and threats like that are rarely made except when something highly volatile is at stake, and even then the most the White House can get news agencies to do is wait to release information for a few days--they can't and don't stop them from publishing it. Similarly, a corporation that advertises for a given media outlet might attempt to suppress embarrassing news about itself being reported by that outlet, and are sometimes successful in this respect. However, neither the government nor advertisers can compete with the cutthroat world of mass media. Being the first to "break" a story is of crucial importance, and if holding off on releasing a story means an agency will be beaten to the punch by another, they most likely won't do it. Plus, if one agency gets wind of another withholding information from the public (which is in violation of the journalistic code of ethics), news agencies will be all over them like sharks on chum. The media might be beholden to the government and to advertisers to some degree, but those obligations are dwarfed by the media's love for scandal. If they have a choice between not pissing off the White House/advertisers, and winning a Pulitzer and soaring ratings, they're going to go with the Pulitzer and the ratings every time. [QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29792560]well obama is a shitty president so it wouldn't be a huge surprise if he did something shitty. or on the other hand maybe there are hidden benefits to lying about his death, maybe osama was actually the second coming of jesus and they wanted to make sure god wasnt going to kill everyone for offing his son before they released the news. who knows why the government would engage in an elaborate hoax which i do not personally believe in.[/QUOTE] If you don't believe in it why are you arguing for it at such length?
Rumor has it that Bin Laden was taxidermied.
[QUOTE=Gaza Pen Pal;29792753]to put it generally, he was elected by left leaning americans and continues to uphold the republican policies which have shat all over the american public. but also because he says stupid shit like "its okay to murder people without giving them a fair trial" all the time.[/QUOTE] Obama's campaign was very skillful at avoiding actual policy issues and relying on nebulous concepts of "hope" and "change" that left-leaning Americans were able to project their fantasies of liberalism onto. Not to mention the impressive Republican commitment to painting him as a "socialist". But on the issues, he was always fairly center-left, and his policies thus far have been about as in line with his campaign platform as one could reasonably expect. Considering he inherited a gazillion dollar global financial meltdown and has had to deal with a Republican House for much of his term, he's been reasonably effective.
Really, if you look at it simply, the accomplishments he's made are pretty damn good. DADT repeal, reform of healthcare (albeit not a good form at this point, but that wasn't really his fault), stimulus was alright, trying some immigration reform now. Overall pretty damn good.
[QUOTE=XanaToast.;29777521]we'll know he's actually dead when they release all his videos in a box set[/QUOTE] Except no one uses VHS anymore over here in first world countries
It is very possible that he could've been dead/captured for a good amount of time though. Think about it.... The US government gets him, "interrogates" him for a while, then offs him. To avoid international Geneva Convention backlash they set up the compound raid and say that he was killed as a result of this. Body gets dumped into the ocean to hide and evidence of torture.
[QUOTE=nono345;29779174]iran also claims that the holocaust never happened[/QUOTE] no they said that the Zionist where focusing on the jews
[QUOTE=avon43;29793785]no they said that the Zionist where focusing on the jews[/QUOTE] Nope, he called it a myth. [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4527142.stm[/url]
[QUOTE=captainHOE;29793965]Nope, he called it a myth. [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4527142.stm[/url][/QUOTE] 10 bucks says thats taken out of context find the video
Yeah, listen to Iran. Very credible. But to be honest it is understandable, the whole thing with Osama's body and whatnot is suspicious.
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