Blackwater used 'child prostitutes in Iraq' allege employees - Polidicks

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;17871939]No it isn't.[/QUOTE] Facepunch doesn't know what puberty is. (Figures)

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17872942]Right there. You're implying that there's a 10% doing something to make the 90% look bad.[/QUOTE] How the FUCK is that saying "this shit happens in the middle east all the time" ?? I'm implying that people should not be so quick to judge an entire body of people because of the actions of one or two bad eggs. Unfortunately with the media the way it is, we will never hear about the 90% who do their jobs professionally and are good people. We will always hear about the bad eggs that spoil it for the rest though, and people have a tendency to canvas the entire group based on that. Before Blackwater, it was US Marines who were the target of media, before that, the US Army.

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17872605]So what you're saying is that we shouldn't care or even take action over the fact that what we are in effect doing is paying a religious extremist to roll in with his private army and fuck shit up and then have sex with children? And we shouldn't do anything about that because the same thing is done in the army? Alright, that's probably the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard. You're telling me we can investigate a pilot's gayness and kick him out for that but we can't do a damn thing about child rape? You've got to be shitting me.[/QUOTE] My point is that people are people. Black water or US military, every group has disgusting human beings in it. Police officers go crooked, doctors accept bribes, priests molest children. Stop bawling over PMC's. And I still want to know what they are calling "child prostitutes".

[QUOTE=professional;17873020]How the FUCK is that saying "this shit happens in the middle east all the time" ?? I'm implying that people should not be so quick to judge an entire body of people because of the actions of one or two bad eggs. Unfortunately with the media the way it is, we will never hear about the 90% who do their jobs professionally and are good people. We will always hear about the bad eggs that spoil it for the rest though, and people have a tendency to canvas the entire group based on that. Before Blackwater, it was US Marines who were the target of media, before that, the US Army.[/QUOTE] I was referring to Gunfoxes post because I thought you agreed with him. If you don't I apologize, I misunderstood. I still would like to know what you think about what I said before. It's, in effect, a private military force lead by a religious extremist accused of murder. It's filled with people either too violent or too incompetent to be in the military or the police. There are constant reports of abuse by the members of the group. What leads you to believe that it's made up, ultimately, of good people when there's so much evidence to the contrary? [editline]05:49AM[/editline] [QUOTE=GunFox;17873061]My point is that people are people. Black water or US military, every group has disgusting human beings in it. Police officers go crooked, doctors accept bribes, priests molest children. Stop bawling over PMC's. And I still want to know what they are calling "child prostitutes".[/QUOTE] That's odd. In my experience people complain about both the military and these PMCs equally. Well, perhaps not quite equally, but then PMCs aren't discussed as much as the military is. So no, I wouldn't saying anyone is "bawling" over PMCs. By definition a child prostitute would be a prostitute under the age of consent. While it's possible that this means all the prostitutes were between the age of 17 and 17 and a half, I doubt it.

[QUOTE=GunFox;17873061] Stop bawling over PMC's. [/QUOTE] The fact that it was done by a private military contractor makes no difference to me, they still sexually abused children, it would be wrong no matter if it was the military or a PMC or my cousin twice removed it's still sick and wrong.

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17873097]I was referring to Gunfoxes post because I thought you agreed with him. If you don't I apologize, I misunderstood. I still would like to know what you think about what I said before. It's, in effect, a private military force lead by a religious extremist accused of murder. It's filled with people either too violent or too incompetent to be in the military or the police. There are constant reports of abuse by the members of the group. What leads you to believe that it's made up, ultimately, of good people when there's so much evidence to the opposite? [editline]05:49AM[/editline] That's odd. In my experience people complain about both the military and these PMCs equally. Well, perhaps not quite equally, but then PMCs aren't discussed as much as the military is. So no, I wouldn't saying anyone is "bawling" over PMCs. By definition a child prostitute would be a prostitute under the age of consent. While it's possible that this means all the prostitutes were between the age of 17 and 17 and a half, I doubt it.[/QUOTE] Age of consent is all over the map in different countries. everything from 14 to 21 and beyond. [editline]01:54AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Ruslana;17873162]The fact that it was done by a private military contractor makes no difference to me, they still sexually abused children, it would be wrong no matter if it was the military or a PMC or my cousin twice removed it's still sick and wrong.[/QUOTE] Yeah how old were these kids?

[QUOTE=GunFox;17873197]Age of consent is all over the map in different countries. everything from 14 to 21 and beyond. [editline]01:54AM[/editline] Yeah how old were these kids?[/QUOTE] Ah, it seems this news site is based in Tehran. Does anybody know the age of consent in Iran?

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17872605]So what you're saying is that we shouldn't care or even take action over the fact that what we are in effect doing is paying a religious extremist to roll in with his private army and fuck shit up and then have sex with children? And we shouldn't do anything about that because the same thing is done in the army? Alright, that's probably the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard. You're telling me we can investigate a pilot's gayness and kick him out for that but we can't do a damn thing about child rape? You've got to be shitting me.[/QUOTE] He's saying that shit happens like this all the time, except this time someone got caught.

[QUOTE=Amez;17873223]He's saying that shit happens like this all the time, except this time someone got caught.[/QUOTE] And how would that factor into it?

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17873097] I still would like to know what you think about what I said before. It's, in effect, a private military force lead by a religious extremist accused of murder. It's filled with people either too violent or too incompetent to be in the military or the police. There are constant reports of abuse by the members of the group. What leads you to believe that it's made up, ultimately, of good people when there's so much evidence to the opposite? [/QUOTE] See? You already have a generalized concept of the "kind of people" in Blackwater despite never having worked with them or really, having any knowledge of the group other than what the media portrays. It's not "filled with people too violent or incompetent to be in the military or police". Alot of Blackwater contractors are long serving combat veterans who jumped to the private sector so they could make a more suitable amount of money for putting their asses on the line every day. There are quite a large percentage of contractors who are ex-special forces. Go onto any verified military forum/board and ask them what they think of Blackwater and you'll get pretty much the same response everywhere, for the most part, they are professionals, with their 10%ers who fuck everything up for the rest of them. As for "evidence" and constant reports, I ask, [B]what[/B] evidence? Aside from one situation in particular that I can think of, I've never seen any evidence for most of the allegations against blackwater employees, infact, I've seen counter-evidence more often than not. If believed everything the media produced, I'd believe that all US Marines are bloodthirsty, children killing, remorseless pyschopaths who rape and plunder? Is this true? No. Of course it isn't. Get any large group of people together and you are ALWAYS going to to have a small percentage of bad people.

[QUOTE=professional;17873239]See? You already have a generalized concept of the "kind of people" in Blackwater despite never having worked with them or really, having any knowledge of the group other than what the media portrays. It's not "filled with people too violent or incompetent to be in the military or police". Alot of Blackwater contractors are long serving combat veterans who jumped to the private sector so they could make a more suitable amount of money for putting their asses on the line every day. There are quite a large percentage of contractors who are ex-special forces. Go onto any verified military forum/board and ask them what they think of Blackwater and you'll get pretty much the same response everywhere, for the most part, they are professionals, with their 10%ers who fuck everything up for the rest of them. As for "evidence" and constant reports, I ask, [B]what[/B] evidence? Aside from one situation in particular that I can think of, I've never seen any evidence for most of the allegations against blackwater employees, infact, I've seen counter-evidence more often than not. If believed everything the media produced, I'd believe that all US Marines are bloodthirsty, children killing, remorseless pyschopaths who rape and plunder? Is this true? No. Of course it isn't. Get any large group of people together and you are ALWAYS going to to have a small percentage of bad people.[/QUOTE] What is the average pay for a special forces operative? It's not about what you've seen personally, it's about the fact that so much negative press even exists. Is there some motivation for all this controversy? I'm not sure what news you're watching. Of course the military has it's share of rapists and prejudice, it's only to be expected considering the work. But I've never seen any news network say anything along those lines. Perhaps, but it goes beyond that. I would think it has more to do with the nature of the group. You don't see members of the ACLU accusing it's founder of murder.

[QUOTE=GunFox;17873197] Yeah how old were these kids?[/QUOTE] Well taking the word "child" instead of "teenage" or "toddler" I want to say 6-12. Plus, I don't think this what a strictly business sort of deal, I think they were abused/raped and traumatized more than they already are for being child prostitutes in the first place.

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17873324] It's not about what you've seen personally, it's about the fact that so much negative press even exists. Is there some motivation for all this controversy? [/QUOTE] It gets lots of people watching.

[QUOTE=Amez;17873223]He's saying that shit happens like this all the time, except this time someone got caught.[/QUOTE] This excuse is one of the worst excuses of all time. Just because someone else is doing something wrong and not getting caught it's okay for you to do it?

[QUOTE=Jake Nukem;17873360]It gets lots of people watching.[/QUOTE] If news networks were able to make up anything they wanted simply for money, every network would be like Fox. You need a certain amount of information for a news report. As long as you aren't Fox, that is.

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17873324]What is the average pay for a special forces operative? It's not about what you've seen personally, it's about the fact that so much negative press even exists. Is there some motivation for all this controversy? I'm not sure what news you're watching. Of course the military has it's share of rapists and prejudice, it's only to be expected considering the work. But I've never seen any news network say anything along those lines. Perhaps, but it goes beyond that. I would think it has more to do with the nature of the group. You don't see members of the ACLU accusing it's founder of murder.[/QUOTE] The average pay for a SF operative is largely dependent on rank, and job. Combat operators get danger pay etc. So I can't give an accurate figure, but it's safe to say Blackwater would triple, maybe even quadruple what they get payed for [B]one job[/B]. Consider that, and consider that BW employees probably get contracted to do 10 or more jobs a year, and it looks a hell of alot better than putting your ass in the grass for the Army. The motivation comes from sensationalistic media. Controversy gets ratings. And if a hack reporter wants to write a hack book, you can damn guarantee he'll get more attention by painting a group as villains. Like I said, it's not new, before Blackwater became the target of choice, they were focusing the spotlight on US Marines. If Blackwater crumbles, they'll pick a new target. That's our modern media. What I'm trying to establish to you is that BW is merely an employer. It's not a private army, it's a contracting group. It's not like a country's Military where a guy signs his ass away for 4 years to serve, PMC companies merely hire a contractor to do a job. For example, if you worked for BW for one job, there's nothing stopping you from working for one of the many many other PMC groups out there. Its Just BW happens to the be the largest and most well funded group, so as such, they can provide the biggest paychecks.

[QUOTE=professional;17873419]The average pay for a SF operative is largely dependent on rank, and job. Combat operators get danger pay etc. So I can't give an accurate figure, but it's safe to say Blackwater would triple, maybe even quadruple what they get payed for [B]one job[/B]. Consider that, and consider that BW employees probably get contracted to do 10 or more jobs a year, and it looks a hell of alot better than putting your ass in the grass for the Army. The motivation comes from sensationalistic media. Controversy gets ratings. And if a hack reporter wants to write a hack book, you can damn guarantee he'll get more attention by painting a group as villains. Like I said, it's not new, before Blackwater became the target of choice, they were focusing the spotlight on US Marines. If Blackwater crumbles, they'll pick a new target. That's our modern media. What I'm trying to establish to you is that BW is merely an employer. It's not a private army, it's a contracting group. It's not like a country's Military where a guy signs his ass away for 4 years to serve, PMC companies merely hire a contractor to do a job. For example, if you worked for BW for one job, there's nothing stopping you from working for one of the many many other PMC groups out there. Its Just BW happens to the be the largest and most well funded group, so as such, they can provide the biggest paychecks.[/QUOTE] Then give me a rough estimate. So in your opinion Blackwater is simply being victimized by a parasitic media, and is in fact run by and full of perfectly fine professionals? That doesn't really make them not a private army. That makes them a private army you can leave. Of course you wouldn't because it seems the reason you join a PMC is for money, and they're the richest. What can you tell me about their standards? Do they do background checks on the people they hire? Do they do psych tests, you know, things to establish the quality of their soldiers? Do you know anything about their training methods, if they train people? Are there jobs they don't except, or are they simply plain mercenaries?

Meh, saw this coming from lightyears away.

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17873493]Then give me a rough estimate. So in your opinion Blackwater is simply being victimized by a parasitic media, and is in fact run by and full of perfectly fine professionals? That doesn't really make them not a private army. That makes them a private army you can leave. Of course you wouldn't because it seems the reason you join a PMC is for money, and they're the richest. What can you tell me about their standards? Do they do background checks on the people they hire? Do they do psych tests, you know, things to establish the quality of their soldiers? Do you know anything about their training methods, if they train people? Are there jobs they don't except, or are they simply plain mercenaries?[/QUOTE] Don't straw man me, I never said that. My opinion is that they are like any large military/paramilitary group. Like I said, if I was to believe the media's portrayal, I would also have to believe US Marines and US Army soldiers are the same. But I don't, becuase I know everyone has their ten percenters. Once again, no they aren't a private army. They are a contracting group. They contract private security to do high risk security job. As for their standards, you can find that out on their website. Do they do background checks? As far as their Military service is concerned, yes they do. No sense wasting your time with some tall poppy who's playing SF when the reality is he never served a day. Do they train them? Yes, they train extensively, just as any PMC establishment does. As for psych testing, pysch tests are largely a fallacy. Any "psych test" that would actually be revealing would take months and alot of money and conformity from the subject. As such, you can't seriously afford or establish such a method of screening. At best, you can do the general personality evaluation that most Military/Paramilitary groups do. But as said, that's largely pointless. And no, they are [B]NOT[/B] mercenaries. Mercenaries are those who operate outside of the law in an [B]offensive[/B] capacity. A HRSO (High Risk Security Operator) can only be employed by a company that has been given a government contract, and they can only operate in an [B]defensive capacity[/B], hence why it's all the more annoying when people call them "mercenaries". They aren't soldiers, they don't hunt down and close with the enemy. They provide security details.

[QUOTE=professional;17873592]Don't straw man me, I never said that. My opinion is that they are like any large military/paramilitary group. Like I said, if I was to believe the media's portrayal, I would also have to believe US Marines and US Army soldiers are the same. But I don't, becuase I know everyone has their ten percenters. Once again, no they aren't a private army. They are a contracting group. They contract private security to do high risk security job. As for their standards, you can find that out on their website. Do they do background checks? As far as their Military service is concerned, yes they do. No sense wasting your time with some tall poppy who's playing SF when the reality is he never served a day. Do they train them? Yes, they train extensively, just as any PMC establishment does. As for psych testing, pysch tests are largely a fallacy. Any "psych test" that would actually be revealing would take months and alot of money and conformity from the subject. As such, you can't seriously afford or establish such a method of screening. At best, you can do the general personality evaluation that most Military/Paramilitary groups do. But as said, that's largely pointless. And no, they are [B]NOT[/B] mercenaries. Mercenaries are those who operate outside of the law in an [B]offensive[/B] capacity. A HRSO (High Risk Security Operator) can only be employed by a company that has been given a government contract, and they can only operate in an [B]defensive capacity[/B], hence why it's all the more annoying when people call them "mercenaries". They aren't soldiers, they don't hunt down and close with the enemy. They provide security details.[/QUOTE] You said that the media was and is inventing allegations against Blackwater in an attempt to drum up ratings, and that Blackwater was full of and run by professionals. I'd like to know what a private army would be in your opinion. I wasn't really referring to experience. I was more referring to background checks into past crimes. As in ensuring that you don't hire anybody with a history of violent crime or other such things. If you know how long or how much a psych evaluation would cost, I'd like to know where you got that information from and the specifics. How do you ensure that that's all the hired PMC does when the mentioned PMC is operating over seas?

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17873493] What can you tell me about their standards? Do they do background checks on the people they hire? Do they do psych tests, you know, things to establish the quality of their soldiers? Do you know anything about their training methods, if they train people? Are there jobs they don't except, or are they simply plain mercenaries?[/QUOTE] Blackwater almost exclusively only selects former military members and Police officers, particularly those with SWAT training. In both cases only choosing the ones who left their former employment on good terms. Which means they were already psych tested by their previous employers to begin with, and on top of that blackwater almost undoubtedly keeps a professional on a retainer to carry out psych evaluations. They train people. Blackwater has a massive training facility in North Carolina. Huge place, they train civilians there too. Visited it when I lived in NC. And yes. For the company to remain viable, they need to operate in the best interest of the United States overall. Or at least not do things which earn the US bad PR or the company personally. Beyond that, I believe the PMC operatives have the option of rejecting contracts.

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17873680]You said that the media was and is inventing allegations against Blackwater in an attempt to drum up ratings, and that Blackwater was full of and run by professionals. I'd like to know what a private army would be in your opinion. I wasn't really referring to experience. I was more referring to background checks into past crimes. As in ensuring that you don't hire anybody with a history of violent crime or other such things. If you know how long or how much a psych evaluation would cost, I'd like to know where you got that information from and the specifics. How do you ensure that that's all the hired PMC does when the mentioned PMC is operating over seas?[/QUOTE] I did. And I said that Blackwater has it's professionals and it has it's bad eggs. Just like every other Military/Paramilitary group. A private Army would be a say, for example, a warlord with an army to do his bidding. To clarify, Armies operate in offensive capacities. As for background checks into criminal history, yes, they do perform those. My mother is a psychologist. I had this discussion with her regarding standard psych tests many years ago. It is of her professional opinion that with the shallow psych evaluations the Military and Police do, it's very hard to screen out anything at all, unless the person is a complete and blatant sociopath. You ensure that they only operate in an defensive capacity, because they work along side the US Military. They don't roll around the country with impunity. Here's pretty much the jobs a HRSO does while deployed: -VIP detail/escort - Establishment/Building security (more often than not, for embassies) - Medical evacuation and support (you won't ever hear about this one in the media :rolleye:) - Providing training for mainstay forces BW at home in the USA also provides training for a number of law enforcement departments, especially Special teams (SWAT etc)

[QUOTE=GunFox;17873772]Blackwater almost exclusively only selects former military members and Police officers, particularly those with SWAT training. In both cases only choosing the ones who left their former employment on good terms. Which means they were already psych tested by their previous employers to begin with, and on top of that blackwater almost undoubtedly keeps a professional on a retainer to carry out psych evaluations. They train people. Blackwater has a massive training facility in North Carolina. Huge place, they train civilians there too. Visited it when I lived in NC. And yes. For the company to remain viable, they need to operate in the best interest of the United States overall. Or at least not do things which earn the US bad PR or the company personally. Beyond that, I believe the PMC operatives have the option of rejecting contracts.[/QUOTE] Do you have any comment to make on the Baghdad shootings in September, 2007? [editline]07:18AM[/editline] [QUOTE=professional;17873810]I did. And I said that Blackwater has it's professionals and it has it's bad eggs. Just like every other Military/Paramilitary group. A private Army would be a say, for example, a warlord with an army to do his bidding. To clarify, Armies operate in offensive capacities. As for background checks into criminal history, yes, they do perform those. My mother is a psychologist. I had this discussion with her regarding standard psych tests many years ago. It is of her professional opinion that with the shallow psych evaluations the Military and Police do, it's very hard to screen out anything at all, unless the person is a complete and blatant sociopath. You ensure that they only operate in an defensive capacity, because they work along side the US Military. They don't roll around the country with impunity. Here's pretty much the jobs a HRSO does while deployed: -VIP detail/escort - Establishment/Building security (more often than not, for embassies) - Medical evacuation and support (you won't ever hear about this one in the media :rolleye:) - Providing training for mainstay forces BW at home in the USA also provides training for a number of law enforcement departments, especially Special teams (SWAT etc)[/QUOTE] So, Blackwater is a private security contractor comprised mainly if not entirely of ex police and military forces who were seeking greater pay than the police or military could offer. Correct? So the difference lies not in the group itself, but in what the group does? So, in theory, a group, no matter how large or how powerful, can remain a security force as long as it supposedly performs only defensive tasks? So it's possible for potential violent persons to get in? Do you have any idea how prevalent this could be? Al Capone often gave money to the poor, doesn't mean he wasn't screwing them ultimately. So the corporation itself is really that, a corporation? WOuld you say what they do is motivated primarily based on monetary gains?

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17873819]Do you have any comment to make on the Baghdad shootings in September, 2007? [/QUOTE] Do you have any comment on the ungodly number of civilians killed in air strikes and shellings by the military? ONE incident from blackwater which resulted in 17 deaths vs the thousands killed by the US military in many incidents. Yeah, that's right, both suck. Now how is it that the government gets a free ride?

[QUOTE=Mr. Mcguffin;17873819] So, Blackwater is a private security contractor comprised mainly if not entirely of ex police and military forces who were seeking greater pay than the police or military could offer. Correct? So the difference lies not in the group itself, but in what the group does? So, in theory, a group, no matter how large or how powerful, can remain a security force as long as it supposedly performs only defensive tasks? So it's possible for potential violent persons to get in? Do you have any idea how prevalent this could be? Al Capone often gave money to the poor, doesn't mean he wasn't screwing them ultimately. So the corporation itself is really that, a corporation? WOuld you say what they do is motivated primarily based on monetary gains?[/QUOTE] Correct. Partly correct yes. They entire idea behind PMC groups to provide a supplemental security and supply force for Mainstay Military forces. It's just as possible as say, the military or the police for violent persons to get it. As for how prevalent it is, I would once again say no more than the likes of the US Marines or US Army for example. Once again we're dealing with majorities and minorities here. Majority of people are not sociopaths or rapists etc. I would say the motivation to work under Blackwater is based entirely on monetary gains. That's the reason most of them leave a long, distinguished career in the Military or LE deparments, so they can get paid what they think they deserve for their tactical skills and for putting their asses in the line of fire. As I said, the only reason so many of them choose to work for Blackwater over other PMCs, is Blackwater can offer the largest pay for a job.

[QUOTE=GunFox;17874026]Do you have any comment on the ungodly number of civilians killed in air strikes and shellings by the military? ONE incident from blackwater which resulted in 17 deaths vs the thousands killed by the US military in many incidents. Yeah, that's right, both suck. Now how is it that the government gets a free ride?[/QUOTE] Yes. War is hell, and usually unnecessary, and the military is designed to sap you of your individuality. But that's just my opinion. Maybe because the citizens of the US are deluded and look at the military as a paragon of human sacrifice, possibly due to subconscious reactions to authority figures hard wired into the brain? And perhaps the reason Blackwater gets more attention is because they're a private entity and therefor operate outside of regular society and therefor don't trigger the same response? Maybe.

It was a rhetorical question.

[QUOTE=Jimpy;17871857]I doubt he's all that religious if there really are these crazy sexual scandels going on and he doesn't care.[/QUOTE] Well, what Christian really abides by the rules? Christianity is just some egotistical delusion, and I say that because of the alleged higher moral standing. [editline]07:45AM[/editline] [QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;17871939]No it isn't.[/QUOTE] Sure it is. Even in the States, you've got varying legal ages of consent throughout different states.

So, when the USA decided to free this country from the tyranny of Hussein, they hired Drug addicted, Alcoholic, Child abusers to regulate this country. Yeh that makes sense.

[QUOTE=Probydoby;17884251]So, when the USA decided to free this country from the tyranny of Hussein, they hired Drug addicted, Alcoholic, Child abusers to regulate this country. Yeh that makes sense.[/QUOTE] It does when you consider that the U.S. doesn't start wars to liberate people.