As Concealed-Carry Permits Rise, Crime Rates in Chicago Plummet - Polidicks

[QUOTE=gk99;45798366]I don't get it though, why does the sign exist? I mean, who's it for? The criminal that doesn't give a fuck and will bring in his gun anyway if he's robbing the place or something, or the guy that just had it for protection?[/QUOTE] the one thing that always bothers me about "but the bad guys don't care about the rules!" argument is that it's used specifically by people trying to say they don't care about the rules I understand the intent of the statement but it seems like an awkward way to put your stance up

who would have thought the increase of possibility that the person you assualt could have a gun would make people less likely to commit crimes

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45798587]I think this article (or one like it) has been posted before. I made this graph last time (showing homicides per year in Chicago): [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/bNJzGry.png[/IMG] This is called cherry picking.[/QUOTE] I always loved this about how the news presents timelines, you can ignore the overall stats and say "let's look at the three years leading up to 2012" and show this as a whole graph- [img]http://i.imgur.com/oslQxHi.png[/img] and people would flip the fuck out because it's a HUGE deviation saying something was wrong, even if the numbers aren't that huge compared to other rises/drops along the entire series

Another reason I don't need to load up Watch Dogs.

[QUOTE=gk99;45798366]I don't get it though, why does the sign exist? I mean, who's it for? The criminal that doesn't give a fuck and will bring in his gun anyway if he's robbing the place or something, or the guy that just had it for protection?[/QUOTE] for the business owner who doesn't want guns in their establishment because people don't like being around guns

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;45796165]Pretty sure you're taking away your own ability by choosing to go into that building[/QUOTE] We'll see. District courts have said the survivors of the Aurora theater shooting can sue Century Theaters.

An armed society is a polite society.

[QUOTE=darunner;45799091]We'll see. District courts have said the survivors of the Aurora theater shooting can sue Century Theaters.[/QUOTE] didn't say they'll win just that a case can even begin to be made most people will probably see it as frivolous [QUOTE=seano12;45799107]An armed society is a polite society.[/QUOTE] Living in America makes me think otherwise

[QUOTE=Ardosos;45796005]The best thing about those signs is that if you get injured in a situation where you would have been able to defend yourself if you had your gun, the owner of the property is completely liable. At least that's how the law works in my state.[/QUOTE] Seriously? That's awesome.

The thing I like about the whole "gun-free zone" rule is that in most cases it's basically unenforceable. If you want to enforce it, you have to put metal detectors at the entrances, and people to man them. Pick a random building with "no guns" stickers on the doors. I guarantee you that it will have no such measures in place.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;45799412]The thing I like about the whole "gun-free zone" rule is that in most cases it's basically unenforceable. If you want to enforce it, you have to put metal detectors at the entrances, and people to man them. Pick a random building with "no guns" stickers on the doors. I guarantee you that it will have no such measures in place.[/QUOTE] yeah but since the rallying cry is "law-abiding citizens" you probably shouldn't be doing that

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;45799436]yeah but since the rallying cry is "law-abiding citizens" you probably shouldn't be doing that[/QUOTE] Gun free signs have no legal backing in most states. Most that can be done is the owner asks you to leave, at which point you are tresspassing.

[QUOTE=darunner;45799475]Gun free signs have no legal backing in most states. Most that can be done is the owner asks you to leave, at which point you are tresspassing.[/QUOTE] they do in Illinois [url]http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=043000660K65[/url] btw guy from before you were right, Illinois did just recently pass a liability thing for gun-free businesses.

Typical American reporting. "WE FOUND SOMETHING TO SAY GUNS ARE GOOD YAY :D" As pointed out several times already, crimerates were dropping anyways, it's just our perception that changes. Furthermore there have been changes made in schools, healthcare, police departments and many other things. They just happen to pin the story on the CCW permits, because it fits their agenda. Just because there is correlation, doesn't mean there is causation. I'm happy crime is dropping in Chicago, but just remember. Guns are heavily restricted in Europe, and crime is generally lower there. Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands etc etc.

[QUOTE=Pr0fane;45799548]Typical American reporting. "WE FOUND SOMETHING TO SAY GUNS ARE GOOD YAY :D" As pointed out several times already, crimerates were dropping anyways, it's just our perception that changes.[/quote] The anti gunners are guilty of the exact same thing. [quote]Furthermore there have been changes made in schools, healthcare, police departments and many other things. They just happen to pin the story on the CCW permits, because it fits their agenda.[/quote] Nothing positive has happened in any of those. [quote]Guns are heavily restricted in Europe, and crime is generally lower there. Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands etc etc.[/QUOTE] They also have entirely different societies and ethnic diversities from the US.

[QUOTE=darunner;45799571]The anti gunners are guilty of the exact same thing.[/QUOTE] Both parties can scream whatever the hell they want, it has no bearing on the truth. Factually, CCW is either positive, neutral or negative for crimerates. No matter what opinion is being voiced at what volume. [QUOTE=darunner;45799571]Nothing positive has happened in any of those.[/QUOTE] You are quick to dispute that no changes have been made in any of those 3 things. Even though I doubt NO change have been made, it wasn't meant to take literally. There are more variables, you see. You also cannot attribute it to CCW in any way. Look at the graphs posted above many time. There's a downward tendence since long before CCW, with a slight oscilation. [QUOTE=darunner;45799571]They also have entirely different societies and ethnic diversities from the US.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure if they have different societies and ethnic diversities, but is that even relevant? The countries I posted also have different ethnic diversities and societies amongst eachother, yet they still all share low crimerates without publicly available guns?

[QUOTE=Pr0fane;45799707]Both parties can scream whatever the hell they want, it has no bearing on the truth. Factually, CCW is either positive, neutral or negative for crimerates. No matter what opinion is being voiced at what volume.[/quote] You basically said nothing here. [quote]You are quick to dispute that no changes have been made in any of those 3 things. Even though I doubt NO change have been made, it wasn't meant to take literally. There are more variables, you see. You also cannot attribute it to CCW in any way. Look at the graphs posted above many time. There's a downward tendence since long before CCW, with a slight oscilation. [/quote] I said no POSITIVE changes, and I stand by that. Primary education is stagnant in the state of being poor quality. Police departments are a staffed by a bunch of bullies who now have a strong public union to protect them, the belief that they are never wrong, and military hand-me-downs to back it up. I never challenged anything in your graphs. [quote]Yes they do have different societies and ethnic diversities, but is that relevant? The countries I posted also have different ethnic diversities and societies amongst eachother, yet they still all have low crimerates without publicly available guns?[/QUOTE] Because the US is a fucking huge (most of our New England states are bigger than most European countries) melting pot of every different type of belief system on this planet. Your Nordic countries are almost entirely homogeneous in terms of race and religion. Very little to disagree about amongst them. Everybody in the US has their own opinion and the majority of them want to force their opinion onto others as unadulterated fact. Plenty of room for conflict there.

[QUOTE=darunner;45799773]Because the US is a fucking huge (most of our New England states are bigger than most European countries) melting pot of every different type of belief system on this planet. Your Nordic countries are almost entirely homogeneous in terms of race and religion. Very little to disagree about amongst them. Everybody in the US has their own opinion and the majority of them want to force their opinion onto others as unadulterated fact. Plenty of room for conflict there.[/QUOTE] half of all victims of homicide in the united states are black; most of that is caused by black-on-black violence. there is not very much politically- or religiously-motivated violence in the united states, either. the legal system protects religious minorities while the mostly democratic-ish system lets people take out their frustrations at a ballot box and/or a computer screen. furthermore, the higher incidence of violent crime in the united states is primarily the result of poverty and income inequality, which the US has much more of compared to other nations.* cultural homogeneity has nothing to do with it. *sources: [QUOTE][url]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953698000975[/url] [url]http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/jlecono45&div=6&id=&page=[/url] [url]http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2095046?uid=3739600&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104623170773[/url] [url]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014292101000964[/url] [url]http://cjr.sagepub.com/content/18/2/182.short[/url] [url]http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9125.1991.tb01087.x/abstract;jsessionid=8E7BE73BE0AD8CC199215891F3C07D4E.f02t04?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false[/url][/QUOTE]

I don't feel as if correlation equals causation - yet. Particularly because of how Homicide rates have been in the past few years. I hope people don't use this as an example for the rest of the nation. There just isn't enough evidence supporting either side yet. What I personally yearn for is a system like the Czech republic.

[QUOTE=Pr0fane;45799548]Typical American reporting. "WE FOUND SOMETHING TO SAY GUNS ARE GOOD YAY :D" As pointed out several times already, crimerates were dropping anyways, it's just our perception that changes. Furthermore there have been changes made in schools, healthcare, police departments and many other things. They just happen to pin the story on the CCW permits, because it fits their agenda. Just because there is correlation, doesn't mean there is causation. I'm happy crime is dropping in Chicago, but just remember. Guns are heavily restricted in Europe, and crime is generally lower there. Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands etc etc.[/QUOTE] "My agenda is better than your agenda and you should feel bad for holding a different opinion, please keep in mind that I'm right" Sounds like you need to get off your high horse. And what does Europe have to do with anything in this situation? Why bring it up? You claim Americans cling to anything that justifies guns but it just looks like you're on the other extreme of the situation.

[QUOTE=FetusFondler;45800756]"My agenda is better than your agenda and you should feel bad for holding a different opinion, please keep in mind that I'm right" Sounds like you need to get off your high horse. And what does Europe have to do with anything in this situation? Why bring it up? You claim Americans cling to anything that justifies guns but it just looks like you're on the other extreme of the situation.[/QUOTE] Oh god Im trying to have a discussion on facepunch again. I never said I was part of the anti-gun movement? I live in the Netherlands and I have a gun myself, legal with a permit. I just think all this rubbish that you lot spout about "we need guns to be safe' is complete and utter bullshit. [editline]26th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=darunner;45799773] Because the US is a fucking huge (most of our New England states are bigger than most European countries) melting pot of every different type of belief system on this planet. Your Nordic countries are almost entirely homogeneous in terms of race and religion. Very little to disagree about amongst them. Everybody in the US has their own opinion and the majority of them want to force their opinion onto others as unadulterated fact. Plenty of room for conflict there.[/QUOTE] What?! Yeah America is bigger than European countires, but EU countries are entirely homogeneous in terms of race and religion?! [quote][B]Ethnic Groups in the Netherlands[/B] Dutch (& Frisians) 13,234,545 78.64% Turkish (& Kurdish) 396,414 2.36% Moroccan (& Berber) 374,996 2.23% Indonesian (& Indo) 372,233 2.21% Germans 368,512 2.19% Surinamese 348,291 2.07% Dutch Caribbean 146,855 0.87% Others 1,587,433 9.43% Total 16,829,289 100%[/quote] [quote][B]Ethnic Groups in the USA[/B] Americans 308,745,538 100.0 % White 223,553,265 72.4 % African American 38,929,319 12.6 % Asian American 14,674,252 4.8 % Native Americans or Alaska Native 2,932,248 0.9 % Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander 540,013 0.2 % Some other race 19,107,368 6.2 % Two or more races 9,009,073 2.9 %[/quote] Same shit goes for Sweden, Denmark, Germany and all other countries that I named. By your reasoning, there's even more room for conflict in European countries, since there the different races and ethnic groups are mixed and living alongside eachother. Unlike America, where there are 'black cities', 'hispanic communities' and god knows wat. I'm not pushing my agenda, because I have none. Also, where am I on a high horse?! Really petty of you guys to go that route instead of having a discussion like I'm trying to have. [editline]26th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=darunner;45799773]You basically said nothing here. [/QUOTE] I said that even if 90% of the people yell that the solarsystem is geocentric, that that doesn't make it so. It's heliocentric, regardless of our perception and the volume at which the majority voices it's opinion. [QUOTE=darunner;45799773] I said no POSITIVE changes, and I stand by that. Primary education is stagnant in the state of being poor quality. Police departments are a staffed by a bunch of bullies who now have a strong public union to protect them, the belief that they are never wrong, and military hand-me-downs to back it up. I never challenged anything in your graphs. [/QUOTE] You acknowledge that, yet you still fail to see that I was simply listing a number of possible variables that could be affecting the crimerates. I told you, not to take them as a literal or even limitative list, and you invest more time talking about the three that I named. That's not the point...

So Is everyone suddenly aware that more people are carrying guns and therefore committing less crimes? Are crimes that usually occur being foiled by concealed carry heroes? Or is just two loosely related statistics with no real correlation..

[QUOTE=seano12;45799107]An armed society is a polite society.[/QUOTE] An armed society is also one where you'll get your head blown off if you disagree with someone's opinions, possibly about guns.

Saw a pickup truck with a bumper sticker that was an ad for his concealed carry training right next to a bumper sticker that said "WARNING: ARMED AND EASILY PISSED". Very polite.

[QUOTE=gk99;45798366]I don't get it though, why does the sign exist? I mean, who's it for? The criminal that doesn't give a fuck and will bring in his gun anyway if he's robbing the place or something, or the guy that just had it for protection?[/QUOTE] laws against murder should not exist because people will murder if they want to

[QUOTE=No_Excuses;45805363]So Is everyone suddenly aware that more people are carrying guns and therefore committing less crimes? Are crimes that usually occur being foiled by concealed carry heroes? Or is just two loosely related statistics with no real correlation..[/QUOTE] I wish crimes deterred for simple fear of CC could be made into statistics.

[QUOTE=Pr0fane;45803266]What?! Yeah America is bigger than European countires, but EU countries are entirely homogeneous in terms of race and religion?! [percentages][/QUOTE] Maybe you should take a closer look at your charts and notice the breakdowns. For the Netherlands, the breakdowns are by [b]country[/b], while for the US, the breakdowns are by [b]continent[/b]. The latter will hold many of the former. [editline]26th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=TornadoAP;45805593]An armed society is also one where you'll get your head blown off if you disagree with someone's opinions, possibly about guns.[/QUOTE] Clearly that is why the streets run literally red with blood in the US. Because differences of opinion lead to mass murder.

[QUOTE=Pr0fane;45803266]Ethnic Groups in the USA Americans 308,745,538 100.0 %[/quote] wow [QUOTE=No_Excuses;45805363]So Is everyone suddenly aware that more people are carrying guns and therefore committing less crimes? Are crimes that usually occur being foiled by concealed carry heroes? Or is just two loosely related statistics with no real correlation..[/QUOTE] unverified but realistically possible piece of the overall cause, people clinging to loose correlation like it's 100% of why things are changing, and using the word 'plummet' like crime rates haven't been steadily dropping since the 90's

[QUOTE=DaCommie1;45795879]The Czech Republic actually has very liberal gun laws compared to most of Europe. Your basic pistol permit allows you to carry everywhere except an organized protest, 1/5 of your parliament carries, and shooting is the 3rd most popular sport in the country. There's also technically no such thing as a prohibited gun in the Czech Republic, just that some are harder to get the permits for than others.[/QUOTE] Very few people actually bother in getting a permit though. We don't have the same gun culture as the US. From memory, I think I know one single person, who just has a permit for sport pistols.

Resident Chicago CCL holder at your service. Crime has been going down in many places for a long time, and particularly this last year was quite strange in terms of weather, which seems to directly impact how much violent crime actually happens each year. At the very least, it does not seem that concealed carry permits have caused crime to rise, obviously, no shit. But correlation does not equal causation and CCL has little to do with crime in any case. In every case it's been stated that CCL leads to more or less crime I've never been able to find any evidence one way or the other. I don't think it particularly dissuades criminals (except in some states with a high rate of gun ownership, it does seem they are a little more reluctant to commit property crimes). Well, anyway, I'm mixed about the headline is my main point. If crime is up next year, it could just as easily be pointed to as proof CCL doesn't stop crime, or a (shitty) case could be made that crime rose BECAUSE of CCL. Because people who write sensationalist articles are fucking retarded.