As Concealed-Carry Permits Rise, Crime Rates in Chicago Plummet

[Blue Meanie]

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;45847857]The US exports more guns to Mexico than vice versa, I'd like to see what's making you think otherwise[/QUOTE]
I didn't say that they didn't, but many citizens in the US go to Mexico to buy their illegal arms.

[s0beit]

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45847654]I'm sorry, I'm reading your replies, and you obviously have very little knowledge about this subject.[/quote]

Where do you live? Who do you know?

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45847654]All of the information that you don't believe, you can go ahead and look it up. Making illegal guns is not popular in the US by the way, although it does happen, illegal mass produced arms are more common.[/quote]

And I'm saying cite a source for everything you're spouting. I don't disagree that imported arms are more common than garage built, but I do disagree there is some kind of import epidemic.

Show me where imported firearms are some kind of epidemic.

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45847654]Regarding the serial numbers, you have no idea what you are talking about.[/quote]

Yes I do.

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45847654]Guns that had serial numbers can be easily proven to once have one, even if they use those so called "tools",[/quote]

I never claimed they were trying to prove a serial never existed, what the fuck are you talking about

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45847654]but for the sake of this conversation I am going to tell you that most thiefs who have stolen guns or bought them from someone who stole them, would not take the time to make the scratched off serial number look like it was never there. Some people might "build the regulated part", i've never heard of it, and I doubt it is common at all since many serials are on the receiver. I can also tell you right now that a criminal is not gonna build a part just to make it look like the serial number was never there.
If a weapon is found in someones house with no serial or one with the serial scraped off, they would get the same punishment, so it would make no sense to build a new part. Another reason why I believe you don't know what you are talking about.[/quote]

None of this addresses anything I said. Can you even read english properly? Serious question. You have some serious reading comprehension skill issues.

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45847654]If you really want to know how I know about the firearms business in mexico, it is real simple. Take a trip to mexico. In shittier places you literally have people selling mac-10s and uzis on the street.
In better places, you have people walking up and asking you if you want to buy a weapon from the trunk of their car.[/quote]

And if you really want to know how I know about the firearms business in Chicago, I live in Chicago.

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45847654]I see you trying to make a lot of points here, but your original point was the the US does not have illegal weapons from other countries, or that they don't have many being brought in, and it simple isn't true whatsoever.[/QUOTE]

My point was they are nowhere near the levels of firearms bought from local businesses. Which is true.

Unless you can cite a source that says I'm wrong, please don't bother posting.

And yes I'm being intentionally condescending. Returning the favor. Data please.

[Blue Meanie]

[QUOTE=s0beit;45849460]Where do you live? Who do you know?

And I'm saying cite a source for everything you're spouting. I don't disagree that imported arms are more common than garage built, but I do disagree there is some kind of import epidemic.

Show me where imported firearms are some kind of epidemic.

Yes I do.

I never claimed they were trying to prove a serial never existed, what the fuck are you talking about

None of this addresses anything I said. Can you even read english properly? Serious question. You have some serious reading comprehension skill issues.

And if you really want to know how I know about the firearms business in Chicago, I live in Chicago.

My point was they are nowhere near the levels of firearms bought from local businesses. Which is true.

Unless you can cite a source that says I'm wrong, please don't bother posting.

And yes I'm being intentionally condescending. Returning the favor. Data please.[/QUOTE]

"None of this addresses anything that I said", I'm sorry, do you forget what you previously posted? You were talking about how there were a number of ways that serial numbers could be destroyed, one of which was "rebuilding the part".

I also never said it was an "epidemic", nor do I even think it would be a problem if it was more common,
so no I don't have a source on that specific argument. The information about stockpiles being found was from police reports that i've read and you can easily look it up unless you don't know how to use google.

When a cop finds a firearm used in a crime, they trace it using the serial number.
If it's destroyed, they can't trace it. If there is no serial number nor a trace of one, it is either imported or built from some shed, and barely anyone builds a part for a firearm just to get rid of the serial number. You obviously have some sort of reading comprehension issue from what I'm seeing, did I ever tell you that someone was trying to prove a serial number was never there? You say that most of the guns used in crimes are from the US, but if it was once a legal US firearm, it will have a trace of a serial, whether it was scraped off, melted, or filled.

I am from Arizona and I am very familiar with Cuban and Mexican gangs, and I know that many US citizens will go to Mexico to purchase an illegal firearm. I don't know about Illinois,
but here it is very common for an illegal and even many citizens to own illegal weapons, especially if it is a machine gun. Even if said person isn't a criminal, they would simply buy a weapon from mexico because it is way cheaper. I can't say it's smart, but it definitely does happen, and it's a lot more common then you think.

I have a feeling that we are having this argument because you know more about where you live and I know more about where I live,
but I am speaking as a whole for this country, it will not matter what kind of bills they put into place,
people will still fight the bill, and the black market gun business would grow even more.

To put it simply, probably about 15 percent of the people around here will buy a black market firearm because it is cheaper.
I don't have any reports about it, but I know from people I've met and various firearms i've seen, and i've probably seen more people with an illegal weapon then one that they bought from an FFL dealer.

I honestly can't see why you are still posting, you are obviously just talking from your ass to hold your argument.
Not trying to be a dick, but it is clear you know nothing about this topic, or organized crime, except for maybe in the city of Chicago.

[Kardia]

Everyone feels safer with their guns, crime rates continue to fall as usual. Good stuff.

[Bazsil]

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;45805593]An armed society is also one where you'll get your head blown off if you disagree with someone's opinions, possibly about guns.[/QUOTE]

please dont try to influence politics with childish hyperbole -- thank you!~

[s0beit]

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45849628]"None of this addresses anything that I said", I'm sorry, do you forget what you previously posted? You were talking about how there were a number of ways that serial numbers could be destroyed, one of which was "rebuilding the part".[/quote]

Sure, let's rebuild the conversation

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45849628]The stolen guns also don't account for the handguns with no trace of a serial number which have been found in many crime scenes, usually with lots of dead victims, probably implying it has to do with something gang related.
That also leads me to believe that FFA class weapons are not sold to the general public, and mostly imported for gangs who have them specially imported.

I have one more thing to add, even with all black market operations shut down, there are trades for stealing FFA class weapons, and it's a very big trade.[/quote]

To which I replied

[QUOTE=s0beit]Many guns aren't reported as stolen, and serial numbers can be destroyed with the right tools. If you mean they were created with no serial number, there is a number of ways to do that without importing them from other places.

Building the regulated part yourself for example.[/quote]

You say there was "no trace of a serial number" which have been found at many scenes. There are two ways to take this:

1. Either the firearm was built without a serial number (this is what your post suggests, by the way)
2. That the serial number that once existed was removed/defaced (in which case "no trace of a serial number" would not make sense, the defaced serial number is a "trace" of a serial number, it was there, we know it was there, we just don't know what it was)

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45849628]but for the sake of this conversation I am going to tell you that most thiefs who have stolen guns or bought them from someone who stole them, would not take the time to make the scratched off serial number look like it was never there. Some people might "build the regulated part", i've never heard of it, and I doubt it is common at all since many serials are on the receiver. I can also tell you right now that a criminal is not gonna build a part just to make it look like the serial number was never there.
If a weapon is found in someones house with no serial or one with the serial scraped off, they would get the same punishment, so it would make no sense to build a new part. Another reason why I believe you don't know what you are talking about.[/quote]

Notice that I never, at any point, suggested that building their own receivers was the norm. I was merely suggesting things that may have made sense of your poorly written posts.

You also switch back and forth between stolen legally bought firearms (in this context) and imported arms with "no trace" of a serial number.

[b]Nobody knows what you are talking about[/b]

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45849628]I also never said it was an "epidemic", nor do I even think it would be a problem if it was more common,
so no I don't have a source on that specific argument. The information about stockpiles being found was from police reports that i've read and you can easily look it up unless you don't know how to use google.[/quote]

For one thing:

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45849628]Criminals generally use untraceable guns with the serial number scraped off, so this would have almost no effect.
Sorry if you disagree, but you need to look at the big picture, and the fact is, the US imports lots of illegal guns, it is all propaganda.
I've seen bullshit like this since like 2007, and they have always used "crime rate" as a gyp to get more people to agree with these bills.
Armed crime rate is lower in Europe because they have better security measures regarding the import of black market arms, it has nothing to do with the "legal gun laws".[/quote]

The suggestion here by association is that criminals use unserialized weapons (in this case you say "with the serial number scraped off") so the law I'm presuming you're defending against would be some kind of registration law. That would be fine, except you then go on to say that "it is all propaganda" and the US imports "lots of illegal guns", I suppose trying to strengthen your point but - but the amount of imported arms is so very much lower than the amount of shit bought from gun shops I don't even know what point you're trying to make.

You also say that "they have better security measures regarding the import of black market arms", as if to say if the US had similar "security measures" (without specifying what, exactly, these measures are, conveniently) we would have less importation of these black market arms which are apparently some sort of big contributor.

You might be saying "if they don't get it from gun shops they can get it from other countries", and I don't disagree, but when you're putting those sentences together with other claims the statements bleed into one another and you end up making no sense.

For another thing, the person who makes the claim provides the citations. I'm not googling anything.

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45849628]When a cop finds a firearm used in a crime, they trace it using the serial number.
If it's destroyed, they can't trace it. If there is no serial number nor a trace of one, it is either imported or built from some shed, and barely anyone builds a part for a firearm just to get rid of the serial number.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45849628]You obviously have some sort of reading comprehension issue from what I'm seeing, did I ever tell you that someone was trying to prove a serial number was never there? You say that most of the guns used in crimes are from the US, but if it was once a legal US firearm, it will have a trace of a serial, whether it was scraped off, melted, or filled.[/quote]

Right, but you're the one who started bringing defaced serials into a conversation about "FFA" firearms, I still truthfully have no fucking idea what point you're trying to make.

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45849628]I am from Arizona and I am very familiar with Cuban and Mexican gangs, and I know that many US citizens will go to Mexico to purchase an illegal firearm. I don't know about Illinois,
but here it is very common for an illegal and even many citizens to own illegal weapons, especially if it is a machine gun. Even if said person isn't a criminal, they would simply buy a weapon from mexico because it is way cheaper. I can't say it's smart, but it definitely does happen, and it's a lot more common then you think.

I have a feeling that we are having this argument because you know more about where you live and I know more about where I live,
but I am speaking as a whole for this country, it will not matter what kind of bills they put into place,
people will still fight the bill, and the black market gun business would grow even more.[/quote]

I'd like to see some kind of data for the first claim, but I have no problem agreeing that stopping firearms sales here won't do much. I mean I [i]said that exact thing[/i] several posts ago.

[quote=s0beit]I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here. It is impossible to know about "every operation", criminals will buy guns legally and resell them illegally until they can't (ban on firearms), when that time comes if the demand is still there they'll import them.

Route of least resistance.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45849628]To put it simply, probably about 15 percent of the people around here will buy a black market firearm because it is cheaper.
I don't have any reports about it, but I know from people I've met and various firearms i've seen, and i've probably seen more people with an illegal weapon then one that they bought from an FFL dealer.[/quote]

No shit. I'm not saying that they're getting the background check and buying it themselves, I'm saying they're obtaining a firearm from what was once a legal, local source. That occurs much more than people buying firearms either traded from or transported through Mexico.

[QUOTE=Blue Meanie;45849628]I honestly can't see why you are still posting, you are obviously just talking from your ass to hold your argument.
Not trying to be a dick, but it is clear you know nothing about this topic, or organized crime, except for maybe in the city of Chicago.[/QUOTE]

It is clear to me you're a little shit who believes whatever fudd bullshit from gun shops you want to believe, and who can't even form thoughts properly on paper.

Final thoughts, to make things clear. I'm going to avoid responding to anything you say from now on, not because I want to shit and run, but because explaining these points concisely, right here, will do a world of good better than replying to your incoherent posts
I mean for all we know we agree on every topic, and I simply do not understand what the hell you're trying to say.

1. Guns used by criminals in the US, by and large, more often come from a [b]local source[/b] than from an external one like Mexico.
2. No, that doesn't mean gun restrictions here would stop firearms from being used and sold by criminals, I agree. In fact that was my original post. And all subsequent posts. I don't know where you see that I suggested this wasn't the case.
3. Yes, criminals will deface firearms to conceal the original source of their firearm, so controls against straw purchasing are somewhat unrealistic
4. Unless you have [b]data and want to back up your claims with a source[/b], I contest that any import restrictions do anything to prevent guns from being traded in European countries or for example, Australia. I don't believe their protection of borders has anything to do with the availability of firearms in their country. I believe their societies are just more peaceful due to a variety of other factors. Their criminals are less ruthless and less willing to murder for some variety of reasons. I do actually have data to lend to my assertion, if you want to see that. Nothing is proof positive, but I think I'll present a more digestible argument through crime statistics than you could through demonstrating that these "importation controls" have anything to do with the lack of firearms in the UK.

For example, do you have any examples of the UK's controls on importation stopping shipments of firearms? Or could it be that people aren't even really trying at all? Why wouldn't they be trying to get firearms into the UK? If there's no demand, people won't try to import them in the first place. That is my argument.

[Sector 7]

can you people make shorter posts please

[s0beit]

[QUOTE=Sector 7;45851269]can you people make shorter posts please[/QUOTE]

no

[Blue Meanie]

[QUOTE=s0beit;45851263]Sure, let's rebuild the conversation

To which I replied

You say there was "no trace of a serial number" which have been found at many scenes. There are two ways to take this:

1. Either the firearm was built without a serial number (this is what your post suggests, by the way)
2. That the serial number that once existed was removed/defaced (in which case "no trace of a serial number" would not make sense, the defaced serial number is a "trace" of a serial number, it was there, we know it was there, we just don't know what it was)

Notice that I never, at any point, suggested that building their own receivers was the norm. I was merely suggesting things that may have made sense of your poorly written posts.

You also switch back and forth between stolen legally bought firearms (in this context) and imported arms with "no trace" of a serial number.

[b]Nobody knows what you are talking about[/b]

For one thing:

The suggestion here by association is that criminals use unserialized weapons (in this case you say "with the serial number scraped off") so the law I'm presuming you're defending against would be some kind of registration law. That would be fine, except you then go on to say that "it is all propaganda" and the US imports "lots of illegal guns", I suppose trying to strengthen your point but - but the amount of imported arms is so very much lower than the amount of shit bought from gun shops I don't even know what point you're trying to make.

You also say that "they have better security measures regarding the import of black market arms", as if to say if the US had similar "security measures" (without specifying what, exactly, these measures are, conveniently) we would have less importation of these black market arms which are apparently some sort of big contributor.

You might be saying "if they don't get it from gun shops they can get it from other countries", and I don't disagree, but when you're putting those sentences together with other claims the statements bleed into one another and you end up making no sense.

For another thing, the person who makes the claim provides the citations. I'm not googling anything.

Right, but you're the one who started bringing defaced serials into a conversation about "FFA" firearms, I still truthfully have no fucking idea what point you're trying to make.

I'd like to see some kind of data for the first claim, but I have no problem agreeing that stopping firearms sales here won't do much. I mean I [i]said that exact thing[/i] several posts ago.

No shit. I'm not saying that they're getting the background check and buying it themselves, I'm saying they're obtaining a firearm from what was once a legal, local source. That occurs much more than people buying firearms either traded from or transported through Mexico.

It is clear to me you're a little shit who believes whatever fudd bullshit from gun shops you want to believe, and who can't even form thoughts properly on paper.

Final thoughts, to make things clear. I'm going to avoid responding to anything you say from now on, not because I want to shit and run, but because explaining these points concisely, right here, will do a world of good better than replying to your incoherent posts
I mean for all we know we agree on every topic, and I simply do not understand what the hell you're trying to say.

1. Guns used by criminals in the US, by and large, more often come from a [b]local source[/b] than from an external one like Mexico.
2. No, that doesn't mean gun restrictions here would stop firearms from being used and sold by criminals, I agree. In fact that was my original post. And all subsequent posts. I don't know where you see that I suggested this wasn't the case.
3. Yes, criminals will deface firearms to conceal the original source of their firearm, so controls against straw purchasing are somewhat unrealistic
4. Unless you have [b]data and want to back up your claims with a source[/b], I contest that any import restrictions do anything to prevent guns from being traded in European countries or for example, Australia. I don't believe their protection of borders has anything to do with the availability of firearms in their country. I believe their societies are just more peaceful due to a variety of other factors. Their criminals are less ruthless and less willing to murder for some variety of reasons. I do actually have data to lend to my assertion, if you want to see that. Nothing is proof positive, but I think I'll present a more digestible argument through crime statistics than you could through demonstrating that these "importation controls" have anything to do with the lack of firearms in the UK.

For example, do you have any examples of the UK's controls on importation stopping shipments of firearms? Or could it be that people aren't even really trying at all? Why wouldn't they be trying to get firearms into the UK? If there's no demand, people won't try to import them in the first place. That is my argument.[/QUOTE]

Right, well you are real mature. I'm sorry if you don't understand the context of my posts, but that isn't my problem.
I've written reports about this kind of thing in my law classes, and they all understood perfectly fine.
I have no idea what in the fuck you are going on about with the serials, you think that I am trying to make points which you pulled out of thin air, or maybe just misunderstood me to the point where it looks like you are retarded.

You can believe whatever you want about me, I could care less, but when someone starts an argument like this I will contrast points with one another. If you can't comprehend it, that is your problem, I don't have an issue with writing or reading.

You've never provided me with any source that says locally bought guns are more commonly used in crimes, which I have no doubt is the case in some places, but you keep asking me for data, you haven't even posted any for your claims. You imply that I know nothing about what I'm talking about, I study law and I see many reports, I also study this kind of thing whenever I see a report about gang violence, and seeing your maturity level I can conclude that you are some young know-it-all.

Many of the things that you said I "suggested about you" had nothing to do with you, it was me bringing in a new point. When you read does the entire article get jumbled in your head and everything collides into itself? I'm kind of glad you decided you were done replying, because I am sick of sitting here and wasting my time trying to explain everything to you. Also don't try to act like you know more about western crime society more then I do, you might be in the gun business in Illinois, but that doesn't mean shit for other parts of the country, and it has nothing to do with illegal guns, unless you sell guns to people without doing a background check. Maybe you do since you seem to know that locally bought guns are more common in crimes (which I've never even seen reported).

Regarding the UK again, less illegal arms are imported because it has a smaller crime rate in general, I have no doubt that they try, but not as many people buy them because the US generally has more gangs (the biggest buyer of illegal arms).

"It is clear to me you're a little shit who believes whatever fudd bullshit from gun shops you want to believe, and who can't even form thoughts properly on paper." - When the hell did I ever said I got this information from gun-shops? I don't go to them, I buy my guns from private dealers because it is cheaper. Where the hell do you come up with this shit?

[supernoob96]

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;45805593]An armed society is also one where you'll get your head blown off if you disagree with someone's opinions, possibly about guns.[/QUOTE]

An armed society is one where everyone will be afraid to pull out their gun because someone else with a more stable mind and cause will pull theirs on them.

If everyone is armed, no one is. Incredibles logic.