FBI ready to sell Bitcoins seized from Silk Road - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43585552]Who? Are there any banks or credit unions in on this? Any companies in any industry outside of like, manufacturing bitcoin mining cards? Do any governments see any merit in it? Do people even trust it as a store of value?[/QUOTE] [url]https://btc-e.com/[/url] Just look at the chat to get an idea of the scale, there's frequently people that have multiple hundreds of thousands invested. Stocks don't need credit unions or banks behind them to be stocks. And more and more companies are beginning to invest in bitcoin or other cryptos, zynga and overstock are accepting them soon.

[QUOTE=katbug;43585974][url]https://btc-e.com/[/url] Just look at the chat to get an idea of the scale, there's frequently people that have multiple hundreds of thousands invested. Stocks don't need credit unions or banks behind them to be stocks. And more and more companies are beginning to invest in bitcoin or other cryptos, zynga and overstock are accepting them soon.[/QUOTE] I am looking for actual investors, not a chat room. Which companies? Why? Are they actually accepting bitcoins and storing bitcoins (or are they immediately changing bitcoins into cash?)

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43586412]I am looking for actual investors, not a chat room. Which companies? Why? Are they actually accepting bitcoins and storing bitcoins (or are they immediately changing bitcoins into cash?)[/QUOTE] I heard google knows these things, as well as many other things. You should try using it.

[QUOTE=katbug;43585974][url]https://btc-e.com/[/url] Just look at the chat to get an idea of the scale, there's frequently people that have multiple hundreds of thousands invested. [/QUOTE] Are you taking the trollbox seriously?

[QUOTE=katbug;43587471]I heard google knows these things, as well as many other things. You should try using it.[/QUOTE] Can you give me an actual solid thing or some sort of source instead of constantly dodging the question? "read this chatroom" "i heard that google uses it" "its got a serious investor base" fucking

[QUOTE=Desuh;43587482]Are you taking the trollbox seriously?[/QUOTE] No But I thought it would be enough to get him off my back, because I have a feeling he wouldn't have bothered to look at the sell/buy figures. [editline]18th January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;43587747]Can you give me an actual solid thing or some sort of source instead of constantly dodging the question? "read this chatroom" "i heard that google uses it" "its got a serious investor base" fucking[/QUOTE] Jesus christ, I was telling you to just Google it yourself. Google "bitcoin business" or "btc to usd" or really fucking anything and you'll find the answer to ALL of your questions.

[QUOTE=katbug;43587765]Jesus christ, I was telling you to just Google it yourself. Google "bitcoin business" or "btc to usd" or really fucking anything and you'll find the answer to ALL of your questions.[/QUOTE] if you can't prove that some psuedocurrency is being widely accepted, taken seriously, is used as a store of value, etc, then that looks poor on the currency. what do you mean "google it"? I googled "bitcoin business" and got this: [url]http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-miners-approach-dangers-threshold-2014-1[/url] this doesnt look good on bitcoin

The only vaguely big business I can think of taking bitcoin is overstock and they've been circling the drain since 2011

[QUOTE=katbug;43587471]I heard google knows these things, as well as many other things. You should try using it.[/QUOTE] Don't get into arguments if you're not willing to present evidence for your point of view.

[QUOTE=barttool;43588780]Don't get into arguments if you're not willing to present evidence for your point of view.[/QUOTE] [url]https://www.mtgox.com/[/url] [url]https://btc-e.com/[/url] [url]https://coinbase.com/[/url] [url]https://spendbitcoins.com/places/[/url] And I have already presented evidence, it's just you ignoring the elephant in the room.

Listing bitcoin exchanges doesn't imply there is a serious, large base of businesses who accept bitcoins katbug. What you have essentially told us is that there are 3 companies who facilitate the possible use of bitcoins as a currency by allowing people to buy them rather than actually prove that there is widespread use of bitcoins as a currency.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;43589889]Listing bitcoin exchanges doesn't imply there is a serious, large base of businesses who accept bitcoins katbug. What you have essentially told us is that there are 3 companies who facilitate the possible use of bitcoins as a currency by allowing people to buy them rather than actually prove that there is widespread use of bitcoins as a currency.[/QUOTE] I never said they were a currency I said they were a stock

Why were you telling sobotnik to look up bitcoin businesses then, did you mean exchanges?

why does lonestripper sound like someone who didn't get on the train early enough? the only real problem with bitcoin is the 51% attack which has never happened and would be spotted almost instantly. for the rest of us who bought bitcoins or other alt-coins like litecoins at 1$ each are laughing at everyone who got here late. bitcoin will most likely end up like domain names in the early 90's, every one will laugh at them then be pissed when they miss the opportunities that are happening.

[QUOTE=omggrass;43590236]why does lonestripper sound like someone who didn't get on the train early enough? the only real problem with bitcoin is the 51% attack which has never happened and would be spotted almost instantly. for the rest of us who bought bitcoins or other alt-coins like litecoins at 1$ each are laughing at everyone who got here late. bitcoin will most likely end up like domain names in the early 90's, every one will laugh at them then be pissed when they miss the opportunities that are happening.[/QUOTE] And then crash like it did in the first dotcom boom?

Even when they were $5 I thought they were way to much effort to buy, store and use. The fact the community was turning into a libertarian circlejerk didn't really help either. I'm kinda bemused by it all really, the idea would be neat if it was implemented properly (bitcoin does a poor job at this) but even what bitcoin proposes to solve could be done within the constraints of online fiat transactions. It's just really adding another unneeded middle-man to swapping money.

[QUOTE=omggrass;43590236]why does lonestripper sound like someone who didn't get on the train early enough? the only real problem with bitcoin is the 51% attack which has never happened and would be spotted almost instantly. for the rest of us who bought bitcoins or other alt-coins like litecoins at 1$ each are laughing at everyone who got here late. bitcoin will most likely end up like domain names in the early 90's, every one will laugh at them then be pissed when they miss the opportunities that are happening.[/QUOTE] just because you are lucky enough to jump onto something which more idiots have poured money into isn't really much of an achievement. yeah you made a lot of money, but even more people lost money dumping it on bitcoin think about all the people who've been screwed over by it, not to mention the fact that the bitcoin market is subject to shocks and financial attacks we already mastered a century ago if you are moderately wealthy you could easily collude with some people to corner the bitcoin market [editline]19th January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=katbug;43590012]I never said they were a currency I said they were a stock[/QUOTE] well this is looking pretty bad for something that calls itself a "currency"

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43591620] well this is looking pretty bad for something that calls itself a "currency"[/QUOTE] As if the bitcoin community, or rather anyone else, cares about your opinion of them. It exists and people are making money off it, no matter how many times you say you can't do it people are and will continue to. It's valuable for the same reasons that any stock would be, or any other commodity.

[QUOTE=katbug;43591681]As if the bitcoin community, or rather anyone else, cares about your opinion of them. It exists and people are making money off it, no matter how many times you say you can't do it people are and will continue to. It's valuable for the same reasons that any stock would be, or any other commodity.[/QUOTE] People aren't making money off it though. One portion of the group of people is pouring money into it and the other drains that off. It's not inherently valuable. A currency becomes valuable and widely used when it has many characteristics that makes it successful as a means of exchange. The fact that bitcoin is treated as a way to make money instead of a way to exchange goods reflects very strongly on this. Bitcoin will /never/ become an accepted currency. It will remain floating around in the internet as a weird stock that people pour money into until eventually the fad dies off.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43591749]People aren't making money off it though. One portion of the group of people is pouring money into it and the other drains that off. It's not inherently valuable. A currency becomes valuable and widely used when it has many characteristics that makes it successful as a means of exchange. The fact that bitcoin is treated as a way to make money instead of a way to exchange goods reflects very strongly on this. Bitcoin will /never/ become an accepted currency. It will remain floating around in the internet as a weird stock that people pour money into until eventually the fad dies off.[/QUOTE] That is some amazing clairvoyance you have. Also, here is a little tip, that money in your wallet is just valuable because there are people which put value on it. It does not have any inherent value. The same situation exists here. The difference is it isn't a government giving it value, it is the general populace or those that use it.

[QUOTE=deadoon;43591824]Also, here is a little tip, that money in your wallet is just valuable because there are people which put value on it. It does not have any inherent value.[/quote] Actually that is wrong. The money in the wallet is backed by the state. The state taxes people and fiat currency is used to pay taxes. That is what backs it. People give it value because you can pay taxes with it. [quote]The same situation exists here. The difference is it isn't a government giving it value, it is the general populace or those that use it.[/QUOTE] Again, it's a different situation. In the lack of government authority to back a currency, some other thing is needed. Normally this would be the attributes of the money itself compared to rivals. Is it easier to deal with? Do people widely use it for how much easier it makes trade? Does the value of it stay reasonably consistent and is easy to predict the future value of it? (governments have the advantage of being able to direct monetary policy). Even if all of these made it superior to fiat currency (it isn't. It's only better than fiat currency for niche uses such as black market trading), then you still have to find a solution to the currency itself being massively deflationary (if a coin continually appreciates value, that's a problem).

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43591920]Actually that is wrong. The money in the wallet is backed by the state. The state taxes people and fiat currency is used to pay taxes. That is what backs it. People give it value because you can pay taxes with it. [/QUOTE] What is the inherent value of the dollar then. The reason it has value is that it is a medium of exchange that is accepted by the government for taxes. People don't give it value for any other reason than it is given value by someone else, it has no inherent value, you cannot trade it for gold or any other thing at a specified rate. [QUOTE] Again, it's a different situation. In the lack of government authority to back a currency, some other thing is needed. Normally this would be the attributes of the money itself compared to rivals. Is it easier to deal with? Do people widely use it for how much easier it makes trade? Does the value of it stay reasonably consistent and is easy to predict the future value of it? (governments have the advantage of being able to direct monetary policy). Even if all of these made it superior to fiat currency (it isn't. It's only better than fiat currency for niche uses such as black market trading), then you still have to find a solution to the currency itself being massively deflationary (if a coin continually appreciates value, that's a problem).[/QUOTE] You completely avoided what I just said. A government gives a fiat currency it's buying power. Bitcoins gain their buying power based on what the people who use it think they are worth. You see something that is unsustainable and meaningless, and ignore the fact that it is very new, the dollar wasn't adopted overnight it took a while. It is a commodity currency, or even a commodity in and of itself. It is common at the start, but with only a single mine to obtain it and no restrictions on who can enter it gets crowded pretty quickly. If people see something as having value they will find a way to use that value, and if enough people see it as having value, then you will be able to use that value more easily.

[QUOTE=deadoon;43592045]What is the inherent value of the dollar then.[/quote] The ability of the dollar to pay taxes? That's what I said. [quote]Bitcoins gain their buying power based on what the people who use it think they are worth.[/quote] Herein lies the problem. People only think a currency is worth something if it is actually superior to other alternative currencies. [quote]You see something that is unsustainable and meaningless, and ignore the fact that it is very new, the dollar wasn't adopted overnight it took a while.[/quote] The dollar and the bitcoin are completely different things. The dollar went through many changes in history, and initially the dollar was backed with solid precious metal (fiat dollars didn't come around for ages). [quote]It is a commodity currency, or even a commodity in and of itself.[/quote] Commodity currencies are the worst form of currency. [quote]If people see something as having value they will find a way to use that value, and if enough people see it as having value, then you will be able to use that value more easily.[/QUOTE] So what is valuable about the bitcoin? It needs to be superior to other currencies in practically every way (with stability being especially important).

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43592091]So what is valuable about the bitcoin? It needs to be superior to other currencies in practically every way (with stability being especially important).[/QUOTE] It's commodity money that can safely transport itself anywhere in the world.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43592091]The ability of the dollar to pay taxes? That's what I said. [/QUOTE] So it has value because someone accepts it? That isn't inherent value. That is derived value. [QUOTE] Herein lies the problem. People only think a currency is worth something if it is actually superior to other alternative currencies. [/QUOTE] It is superior in many senses, it does not rely upon a central authority that can control the money flow and fuck people over with changes in policy and prevents fraud as everyone has access to all the transaction records. [QUOTE] The dollar and the bitcoin are completely different things. The dollar went through many changes in history, and initially the dollar was backed with solid precious metal (fiat dollars didn't come around for ages). [/QUOTE] Again ignoring what I had said, it is a new currency of a new classification. It will take time for peope to adjust and find ways of easily accepting it. [QUOTE] Commodity currencies are the worst form of currency. [/QUOTE] That is due to the amount of the currency printed often exceeds the stores of the commodity that they have, in this sense people are trading the actual commodity itself with a self identifying amount so it can easily act as a currency. In a way it fixes the issue that commodity currencies had. [QUOTE] So what is valuable about the bitcoin? It needs to be superior to other currencies in practically every way (with stability being especially important).[/QUOTE] It is valuable because it is difficult to obtain, yet nobody is actually preventing you from obtaining it. Also why are you so hellbent on saying for it to be accepted it has to be better than any current currency? There are a whole lot of unstable fiat currencies around and they are still accepted in their own countries.

[QUOTE=Eudoxia;43592287]It's commodity money that can safely transport itself anywhere in the world.[/QUOTE] Except fiat money is also quite safely and quickly transported anywhere in the world.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43592368]Except fiat money is also quite safely and quickly transported anywhere in the world.[/QUOTE] Except when it is intercepted by customs, or confiscated as drug money, or there are special transaction fees for the receiving countries currency or the exchange they are using, or when there are transaction limitations placed upon your currency by your government.

[QUOTE=deadoon;43592337]It is superior in many senses, it does not rely upon a central authority that can control the money flow and fuck people over with changes in policy and prevents fraud as everyone has access to all the transaction records.[/quote] Except by the same token this means that the currencies completely unregulated nature makes it notoriously unstable. [quote]It is a new currency of a new classification. It will take time for peope to adjust and find ways of easily accepting it.[/quote] Like? Why should people use it? What advantage is there? How do you prevent financial attacks? [quote]That is due to the amount of the currency printed often exceeds the stores of the commodity that they have, in this sense people are trading the actual commodity itself with a self identifying amount so it can easily act as a currency. In a way it fixes the issue that commodity currencies had.[/quote] No, it's that commodity currencies (such as gold or silver) are prone to deflation. The world economy is growing far too quickly to be tethered to such currencies. [quote]It is valuable because it is difficult to obtain, yet nobody is actually preventing you from obtaining it.[/quote] Well a lot of things are invaluable and difficult to obtain as well. This invalidates your argument quite a bit. [quote]Also why are you so hellbent on saying for it to be accepted it has to be better than any current currency? There are a whole lot of unstable fiat currencies around and they are still accepted in their own countries.[/QUOTE] Nah, they aren't accepted. People there use foreign money (secretly) because its usually more stable. There are big black markets in smuggling dollars into North Korea for instance. Bitcoins problem is that it isn't stable, and people treat it as a get rich quick scheme instead as a currency. [editline]19th January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=deadoon;43592398]Except when it is intercepted by customs, or confiscated as drug money, or there are special transaction fees for the receiving countries currency or the exchange they are using, or when there are transaction limitations placed upon your currecy.[/QUOTE] Which affects a tiny proportion of actual uses bitcoin might be useful for. What else is there besides drugs and avoiding gubbermint fees?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43592400]Except by the same token this means that the currencies completely unregulated nature makes it notoriously unstable. [/QUOTE] It isn't regulated by a central authority, but it is self regulated due to the limitations of currency production and of transactions being confirmed by a majority along with transactions decreasing the value of the coin via a transaction fee that goes back into the pool for mining. [QUOTE] Like? Why should people use it? What advantage is there? How do you prevent financial attacks? [/QUOTE] Direct transactions without a middleman. Financial attacks are difficult to create due to all coins are accounted for in some way, everyone has the transaction records. [QUOTE] No, it's that commodity currencies (such as gold or silver) are prone to deflation. The world economy is growing far too quickly to be tethered to such currencies. [/QUOTE] And bitcoins can be cut into smaller portions for use and payment, you can't cut a penny in half in anything by a computer system for calculating interest. IF dollars stayed as gold certificates at a set value, there would be an issue of gold increasing in value as people traded more, thus smaller denominations would be needed, bitcoins already accounted for that with reasonable levels. [QUOTE] Well a lot of things are invaluable and difficult to obtain as well. This invalidates your argument quite a bit. [/QUOTE] Um, invaluable means that something has an extremely high value, you know. You probably mean little value. Also if something has little value, there is probably nearly no way to use it. Bitcoins can be sent to other people inherently, and due to their rarity and people putting value on them, you can trade that value that they hold to you and others for something of equivalent value, whether that be a fiat money, or a product you want to purchase. [QUOTE] Nah, they aren't accepted. People there use foreign money (secretly) because its usually more stable. There are big black markets in smuggling dollars into North Korea for instance. [/QUOTE] Weren't you just saying that the reason the fiat currencies were valuable were because governments accept them as taxes and use them? Isn't this statement contradictory to that then? [QUOTE] Bitcoins problem is that it isn't stable, and people treat it as a get rich quick scheme instead as a currency. [/QUOTE] The reason they aren't stable is because of people trading just for the sake of trading and speculation. Then again that happens even in trading between currencies in reality as well on a smaller scale. The reason bitcoins are still in the vulnerable flux state is due to their relative difficulty to use as a currency right now, but as more vendors accept them they will become more stable. [QUOTE] [editline]19th January 2014[/editline] Which affects a tiny proportion of actual uses bitcoin might be useful for. What else is there besides drugs and avoiding gubbermint fees?[/QUOTE] Having a currency that is not bound to any single entity. Also, your cynicism and the way you mus think that everyone that uses it to either buy drugs or avoid the government it hilarious. It provides a framework to allow for international transactions on an equal basis without the middleman. Even if it by itself is not successful in 20 years, it is a demonstration of how it can be done and based on the amount of work put into it, it likely is going to be superseded by another digital currency which has a similar set of transaction safeguards with individual capability.

Just some facts about bitcoin: They can be traded without a middleman They can be kept secure and safe without a middleman They can be delivered across the world in a matter of minutes, completely securely Public records for all to see are held There is no entity controlling them There is a maximum limit of them There are businesses which accept them There are businesses which will convert them to fiat There are businesses which exclusively exist because of bitcoin, such as coinbase, btc-e, butterfly labs, or any other trade hub or ASIC card developer The fact that you're arguing it isn't a currency is stupid. It's more widely being used as a stock at the moment, but it, like all currencies, needs to exist for a longer period before being widely accepted.