Saudi king appoints first women to Shura Council, decrees that one-fifth of the Council must be wome - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Instant Mix;39202015]This is Saudia Arabia. This is comparable to the moon landing, it's not just a baby step.[/QUOTE] It isn't a step for gender equality unfortunately.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;39198546]Men and women are more or less a 50/50 split in the population worldwide. It varies by region, but it's a nice round number to use. This is a council that advises the government on legislation, so to be effective you'd want it to be as close to a cross-section of society as possible. Previously it was 100% male. Now it's required to be at most 80% male. You cannot make the argument that the appointments were made solely on merit before unless you also want to make the argument that women are 100% less likely to possess the merits for this position. In fact, the current 80/20 mandate [i]still[/i] implies that women are less capable in politics than men. Anything other than a 50/50 split of men/women suggests that the appointments were not, and currently are not, being made based on merit but instead by whether or not the person has a penis. Fun thing to take away from this post: the above point applies to any kind of affirmative action policy, be it in regards to sex, race, sexuality, etc. If the breakdown of people within any sizable organization is not proportionate to the breakdown of people in the society that the organization draws people from, and their race/sex/sexuality does not affect their ability to be in that organization, it cannot be argued that the admission to said organization is being made based on merit but is instead being affected by some sort of bias.[/QUOTE] false dichotomy, as a demographic they might just not want to go into such fields [editline]13th January 2013[/editline] ie decades of affirmative action haven't actually made a dent in the number of women graduating STEM courses, because shock horror, women are less likely to want to go into such fields [editline]13th January 2013[/editline] paternalistic policies such as this might give their supporters some false fuzzy feeling that they are achieving "social justice" but it robs the affected parties of their dignity and personhood

[QUOTE=voltlight;39195911]If I remember correctly from my saudi friend, he said women can drive only if there's a man in the car.[/QUOTE] Bullshit women aren't allowed shit.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39202282]paternalistic policies such as this might give their supporters some false fuzzy feeling that they are achieving "social justice" but it robs the affected parties of their dignity and personhood[/QUOTE] I think the dignity and personhood of Saudi Arabian women had long been robbed from them under the conservative, patriarchal governments they have lived under thus far. Protecting their 'dignity' by removing or not implementing 'affirmative action' would only continue the discrimination they face rather than actually addressing in any meaningful way why they are second-class citizens. Stop applying a 'do nothing' type of selfish moral individualism on a collective, societal problem.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;39202604]I think the dignity and personhood of Saudi Arabian women had long been robbed from them under the conservative, patriarchal governments they have lived under thus far. Protecting their 'dignity' by removing or not implementing 'affirmative action' would only continue the discrimination they face rather than actually addressing in any meaningful way why they are second-class citizens. Stop applying a 'do nothing' type of selfish moral individualism on a collective, societal problem.[/QUOTE] eh now that I think about it I was speaking more of affirmative action in relatively progressive societies like ours rather than in somewhere like saudi arabia. it was wrong of me to use the example of the failure of AA in the west as an example for why it shouldn't be tried elsewhere, sorry.

And within a few decades the entire middleeast will follow suite.

I wish I was a king.

[QUOTE=laserguided;39199681]Thats it? Still a fucked up backwards shithole. How about they turn it into a state where everyone is treated equally and Islam is purged from the constitution.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradualism[/url] the most successful political policy in human history can be used to do almost anything

[QUOTE=Ruskie;39198019]Although It's good that Saudi Arabia is taking the first steps to gender equality, would it not be better to base appointment on merit?[/QUOTE] It depends - once you get the ball rolling you get actually get apointments by merit. But until you do, you essentially have to circumvent a really nasty wall that almost impossible to break trough until the ball gets rolling. This can be either gradual, or quick and hard like this reform does.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39202282]false dichotomy, as a demographic they might just not want to go into such fields [editline]13th January 2013[/editline] ie decades of affirmative action haven't actually made a dent in the number of women graduating STEM courses, because shock horror, women are less likely to want to go into such fields [editline]13th January 2013[/editline] paternalistic policies such as this might give their supporters some false fuzzy feeling that they are achieving "social justice" but it robs the affected parties of their dignity and personhood[/QUOTE] Making girls grow up playing house and making boys grow up playing with legos and working with Dad on the car sure as hell makes a difference, though.

I'm saying it now, but these women are going to be the targets for radical Islamists and so is King for doing this, if he isn't already.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39202282]false dichotomy, as a demographic they might just not want to go into such fields[/quote] This is something you'd have to back up with actual studies. And even if you could back it up you'd need to examine why women show less interest. (Is it because of the pre-existing gender disproportion?) [QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39202282]ie decades of affirmative action haven't actually made a dent in the number of women graduating STEM courses, because shock horror, women are less likely to want to go into such fields[/quote] Maybe women don't want to go into STEM fields because open graduating, [url=http://scienceprogress.org/2012/10/closing-the-pay-gap-in-stem-fields/]they'll get paid less for the [b]same[/b] jobs (read it all) despite their tuition costs being the same as men.[/url] There also doesn't appear to be (from my cursory research) any actual affirmative action policies in regards to women in STEM. Certain schools have grants and workshops to encourage women to apply but nothing is mandated. [QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;39202282]paternalistic policies such as this might give their supporters some false fuzzy feeling that they are achieving "social justice" but it robs the affected parties of their dignity and personhood[/QUOTE] Which affected parties are being robbed of dignity and personhood? The women who now have representation?

[QUOTE=Zeke129;39211155]This is something you'd have to back up with actual studies. And even if you could back it up you'd need to examine why women show less interest. (Is it because of the pre-existing gender disproportion?)[/quote] [quote]In today's world, of course, the gap favors men. Some of the gap is caused by discrimination. Employers may underestimate the skills of women, or assume that an all-male workplace is more efficient, or worry that their male employees will resent female supervisors, or fear resistance from prejudiced customers and clients. But the evidence suggests that not all sex differences in the professions are caused by these barriers.66 It is unlikely, for example, that among academics the mathematicians are unusually biased against women, the developmental psycholinguists are unusually biased against men, and the evolutionary psychologists are unusually free of bias. In a few professions, differences in ability may play some role. The fact that {356} more men than women have exceptional abilities in mathematical reasoning and in mentally manipulating 3-D objects is enough to explain a departure from a fifty-fifty sex ratio among engineers, physicists, organic chemists, and professors in some branches of mathematics (though of course it does not mean that the proportion of women should be anywhere near zero). In most professions, average differences in ability are irrelevant, but average differences in preferences may set the sexes on different paths. The most dramatic example comes from an analysis by David Lubinski and Camilla Benbow of a sample of mathematically precocious seventh-graders selected in a nationwide talent search.67 The teenagers were born during the second wave of feminism, were encouraged by their parents to develop their talents (all were sent to summer programs in math and science), and were fully aware of their ability to achieve. But the gifted girls told the researchers that they were more interested in people, “social values,” and humanitarian and altruistic goals, whereas the gifted boys said they were more interested in things, “theoretical values,” and abstract intellectual inquiry. In college, the young women chose a broad range of courses in the humanities, arts, and sciences, whereas the boys were geeks who stuck to math and science. And sure enough, fewer than 1 percent of the young women pursued doctorates in math, physical sciences, or engineering, whereas 8 percent of the young men did. The women went into medicine, law, the humanities, and biology instead.[/quote] [url]http://www.vanderbilt.edu/peabody/smpy/DoingPsychScience2006.pdf[/url] [quote]Maybe women don't want to go into STEM fields because open graduating, [url=http://scienceprogress.org/2012/10/closing-the-pay-gap-in-stem-fields/]they'll get paid less for the [b]same[/b] jobs (read it all) despite their tuition costs being the same as men.[/url][/quote] erm I think I read that more attentively than you did because it says right here that they weren't doing the same jobs [quote]The study attributed some of this gap to the fact that after graduating women often take different jobs than men even when they majored in the same field: [quote]Among engineering and engineering technology majors, 57 percent of men were working as engineers compared with 39 percent of women .… In contrast, 20 percent of women who graduated with an engineering or engineering technology degree were working in a white-collar occupation other than engineering, science, or business, compared with 4 percent of men.[/quote][/quote] [quote]There also doesn't appear to be (from my cursory research) any actual affirmative action policies in regards to women in STEM. Certain schools have grants and workshops to encourage women to apply but nothing is mandated.[/quote] again your research must have been very cursory indeed because the very article you linked contradicts you: [quote]In a 2010 study, the American Association of University Women recommended that to address the skewed male to female ratio in STEM fields, universities should actively recruit high school girls to STEM majors and encourage girls’ interest in science early on in life. Some universities have begun doing just that—the Massachusetts Institute of Technology sends female students to secondary schools to persuade girls to consider STEM fields at MIT, while the University of Central Arkansas is using a $10,000 grant to recruit first-year females to computer science and provide them with mentoring throughout their time at the university. Texas A&M uses on-campus workshops such as “Expanding Your Horizons” to encourage middle-school girls’ interest in science, and Kettering University in Michigan hosts a two-week engineering camp for 11th-grade girls.[/quote] [quote]Which affected parties are being robbed of dignity and personhood? The women who now have representation?[/QUOTE] no, the women who are given unjustified advantages on the basis of their gender rather than their ability, in fields they evidently prefer less. [editline]14th January 2013[/editline] the differences in the standard deviations of the bell curves for male and female IQ is enough to explain the paucity of female engineers and mathematicians