US House of Representatives passes bill loosening gun restrictions - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52955052]Why?[/QUOTE] Because guns are scary and make people dead, and if you take guns away all crime will disappear. Instead of looking to the massive rich/poor divide, drug consumption, the addiction epidemic, uncontrolled immigration, racial tensions and piss-poor policing, we should just make law abiding citizens criminals.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52955005](this is the reason nobody gives any ground on gun regulations)[/QUOTE] It's also why it's becoming increasingly obvious that the Democratic party is acting wholly in bad faith on gun control. They don't push useless legislation against scapegoats because they don't know any better; they [i]know[/i] an assault weapons ban isn't going to do a thing to the handguns that represent 97% of firearm homicides. They just don't care, because their goal isn't to actually solve the problem, it's to seem reasonable in passing symbolic measures as they work towards total prohibition. And all the while the mantra is 'nobody's coming for your guns, we just want common-sense compromise'. At least proboardslol is willing to own up to it.

I've never understood what's the big deal with guns. I live in Texas and people treat it like it's a religion. I've always been on the "why do you even need a gun" side mainly because all the reasons I hear to own a gun sound like scare tactics.

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;52955098]I've never understood what's the big deal with guns. I live in Texas and people treat it like it's a religion. I've always been on the "why do you even need a gun" side mainly because all the reasons I hear to own a gun sound like scare tactics.[/QUOTE] Why should people not be allowed to own guns? Taking guns away from people because people kill people (for reasons beyond the fact they just happened to find a gun) is like me taking your car away because your neighbor got a DUI. There's nothing inherently dangerous about me keeping firearms.

I didn't mean it like that. I was more addressing how (because I don't have much experience with guns) it seems like all the reasons to own a gun sound like scare tactics which is why I've been on the side of "why do you even need a gun?" Like I've been told that if I don't own a gun it's an invention for someone to rob and kill me.

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;52955196]I didn't mean it like that. I was more addressing how (because I don't have much experience with guns) it seems like all the reasons to own a gun sound like scare tactics which is why I've been on the side of "why do you even need a gun?" Like I've been told that if I don't own a gun it's an invention for someone to rob and kill me.[/QUOTE] Mostly security. Lots of places in the US are a pretty good reach out of the range of a police station. Having a Plan B until Plan A arrives is a good idea for most. Others live on property, and animals are an issue. Some treat them like gearheads treat cars, and like to build and modify them. Then there are people who do it just for sport. I think that having a gun for safety is great reason to own one, but it's certainly going to be the "least useful (read used)" since you are rarely, if ever, going to use one for it (I say this as a CCL holder).

[QUOTE=Revenge282;52955190]Why should people not be allowed to own guns? Taking guns away from people because people kill people (for reasons beyond the fact they just happened to find a gun) is like me taking your car away because your neighbor got a DUI. There's nothing inherently dangerous about me keeping firearms.[/QUOTE] Cars are made to drive around in. Guns are made to kill people. Though eventually when we get to the point where we have self-driving cars, people-driven cars should be illegal

The gun thing works like this. The odds of you needing to defend yourself with one are, on average, infinitesimally small. However, they're fun to shoot for sport or good for hunting or interesting to collect if you like little machines (my guns are just a small part of a larger collection of moving machines) or antiques (also a big part of my antiques collection), and, as a bonus, if you have one, you are able to use it for defense as well should the need arise. I think people in safe areas who buy guns strictly for self defense are a bit on the paranoid end of things, personally, but regardless, they have the right to do so and aren't hurting anything by the act of owning a gun. [QUOTE=proboardslol;52955226]Cars are made to drive around in. Guns are made to kill people. Though eventually when we get to the point where we have self-driving cars, people-driven cars should be illegal[/QUOTE] Swords and things like that are also made to kill people (with far less ambiguity than guns, since lots of guns are expressly for the purpose of hunting or sport and aren't good against people, whereas all swords are, at their core, good against people) but there's no wide push to ban bladed weapons even though they represent a larger majority of assault and homicides than guns do. US law isn't a whitelist of things you're allowed to do, it's a blacklist of things you aren't - so if you want to ban an item the burden is on you to give a compelling argument for why it should be removed, not on the owners of that item to defend why they should get to keep it.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52955231]The gun thing works like this. The odds of you needing to defend yourself with one are, on average, infinitesimally small. However, they're fun to shoot for sport or good for hunting or interesting to collect if you like little machines [/QUOTE] "My hobby is more important than your personal safety"

[QUOTE=proboardslol;52955235]"My hobby is more important than your personal safety"[/QUOTE] Thanks for reading my entire post and offering a thoughtful, reasoned counter-argument. You are truly a valuable component of this discussion. Why don't you explain how my guns compromise your personal safety (or anyone else's)?

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52955237]Thanks for reading my entire post and offering a thoughtful, reasoned counter-argument. You are truly a valuable component of this discussion. Why don't you explain how my guns compromise your personal safety (or anyone else's)?[/QUOTE] Ok. Psychopath can walk into a Walmart and buy a gun

[QUOTE=proboardslol;52955240]Ok. Psychopath can walk into a Walmart and buy a gun[/QUOTE] Why don't you explain how [B]my guns[/B] compromise [B]your[/B] personal safety? None of my guns were bought from Wal Mart (or are available for sale at Wal Mart). However, the guns available for sale at Wal Mart represent an exceedingly small percentage of guns used in crimes and are subject to background checks. On the contrary, I can buy a 10" butcher's knife at Wal Mart without so much as an ID which in its own right is responsible for more deaths in the US than guns. [editline]7th December 2017[/editline] Also, it's illegal to sell a gun to someone who is clearly in a distressed state or otherwise mentally unwell.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52955241]Why don't you explain how [B]my guns[/B] compromise [B]your[/B] personal safety? None of my guns were bought from Wal Mart (or are available for sale at Wal Mart). However, the guns available for sale at Wal Mart represent an exceedingly small percentage of guns used in crimes and are subject to background checks. On the contrary, I can buy a 10" butcher's knife at Wal Mart without so much as an ID which in its own right is responsible for more deaths in the US than guns. [editline]7th December 2017[/editline] Also, it's illegal to sell a gun to someone who is clearly in a distressed state or otherwise mentally unwell.[/QUOTE] Well then where do spree shooters get their guns?

[QUOTE=proboardslol;52955226]Cars are made to drive around in. Guns are made to kill people. Though eventually when we get to the point where we have self-driving cars, people-driven cars should be illegal[/QUOTE] And yet, cars kill more people than guns. (33,736 vs 11,019) [QUOTE=proboardslol;52955235]"My hobby is more important than your personal safety"[/QUOTE] "My shitty zinger is more important than a thoughtful response" [editline]7th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=proboardslol;52955265]Well then where do spree shooters get their guns?[/QUOTE] Not from fucking Wal-Mart...

[QUOTE=proboardslol;52955235]"My hobby is more important than your personal safety"[/QUOTE] IF anti-gun actually cared about personal safety, they'd come up with something better than another fucking assault weapons ban every few years. They'd also care about gun crimes other than spree shootings that barely make up a fraction of gun deaths, but are constantly in the media spotlight.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;52955265]Well then where do spree shooters get their guns?[/QUOTE] The first thing to understand is that the majority of spree shooters (and I think the majority of other shooters, too - IIRC most gun deaths are gang violence related) are already not legally allowed to own firearms by the time they snap. Most often, they acquire them in one of 3 ways: 1) Stolen 2) Private transfer (background checks are not required for this, which is something gun owners would largely be willing to see changed if we were in a good-faith scenario) 3) From a federally licensed dealer (a gun store or, yes, Wal-Mart) but the background check came back green when it should've come back red. This usually happens when the FBI fails to respond to the check, but also background checks are arguably not extensive enough and even when it's done correctly, sometimes information that should be on file just isn't due to a lack of digitization. I am happy to continue to answer honest questions like that one but I'm not going to keep entertaining snarkiness and willful ignorance.

[QUOTE=Revenge282;52955272]And yet, cars kill more people than guns. (33,736 vs 11,019) [/quote] Which is why I said when we get self driving cars then standard ones ought to be illegal. [quote]Not from fucking Wal-Mart...[/QUOTE] where then [editline]7th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;52955287]The first thing to understand is that the majority of spree shooters are already not legally allowed to own firearms by the time they snap. Most often, they acquire them in one of 3 ways: 1) Stolen 2) Private transfer (background checks are not required for this, which is something gun owners would largely be willing to see changed if we were in a good-faith scenario) 3) From a federally licensed dealer (a gun store or, yes, Wal-Mart) but the background check came back green when it should've come back red. This usually happens when the FBI fails to respond to the check, but also background checks are arguably not extensive enough and even when it's done correctly, sometimes information that should be on file just isn't due to a lack of digitization.[/QUOTE] So in all 3 of those cases, the origin of the gun is a legal purchase? Then if nobody were able to legally purchase a gun, where would the guns come from?

[QUOTE=proboardslol;52955289]So in all 3 of those cases, the origin of the gun is a legal purchase? Then if nobody were able to legally purchase a gun, where would the guns come from?[/QUOTE] You want to criminalize otherwise law abiding people because someone can steal something they own lawfully and are not misusing? Actually, I like your way of thinking here. Let's apply it to other things, too. For example, we could completely end identity theft in one fell swoop by destroying all forms of identification. Kids would not scrape their knees if they weren't allowed to use playgrounds. Suicides by train would be ended completely if trains were made illegal. Nobody would be able to outrun the police if their legs were surgically removed at birth. If we enact my proposed laws, there will be a statistical decline in identity theft, scraped knees, train-involved deaths and police chases. That sounds like a success to me. I am not an alien or a computer. If all of those things sound ridiculous to you (although I'm honestly not convinced they do), it's because they are. You (should) know that destroying identification would cause logistical chaos in our society and government, banning playgrounds would seriously deprive kids of playtime critical to mental development, illegalizing trains would leave our economy in ruin, and surgically removing legs would result in a significant quality of life decline for the average American. A rational person now says, "we can probably find a better way to achieve that end." Now, hopefully, you can start to see why gun owners think blanket ban solutions are ridiculous.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52955302]You want to criminalize otherwise law abiding people because someone can steal something they own lawfully and are not misusing? Actually, I like your way of thinking here. Let's apply it to other things, too. For example, we could completely end identity theft in one fell swoop by destroying all forms of identification. Kids would not scrape their knees if they weren't allowed to use playgrounds. Suicides by train would be ended completely if trains were made illegal. Nobody would be able to outrun the police if their legs were surgically removed at birth. If we enact my proposed laws, there will be a statistical decline in identity theft, scraped knees, train-involved deaths and police chases. That sounds like a success to me. I am not an alien or a computer. If all of those things sound ridiculous to you (although I'm honestly not convinced they do), it's because they are. You (should) know that destroying identification would cause logistical chaos in our society and government, banning playgrounds would seriously deprive kids of playtime critical to mental development, illegalizing trains would leave our economy in ruin, and surgically removing legs would result in a significant quality of life decline for the average American. A rational person now says, "we can probably find a better way to achieve that end." Now, hopefully, you can start to see why gun owners think blanket ban solutions are ridiculous.[/QUOTE] The things you sarcastically pretended we should ban are not tools designed to kill people. Their capacity to kill is incidental and banning them would disrupt daily life. The capacity of a gun to kill is intentional, and banning them would not disrupt daily life. Guns and playgrounds aren't in the same category.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;52955315]The things you sarcastically pretended we should ban are not tools designed to kill people. Their capacity to kill is incidental and banning them would disrupt daily life. The capacity of a gun to kill is intentional, and banning them would not disrupt daily life. Guns and playgrounds aren't in the same category.[/QUOTE] Banning guns disrupts daily life (permanently) for a lot of people, according to homicide rates in Chicago and Compton, but ok. Let's look at something else. In the mid-2000s the anti-video game crusade was at its peak. Lawyers like Jack Thompson wanted to implement a video game ban based on statistics loosely linking violent behavior in kids to playing video games. As a gamer, you know that's ridiculous, but unlike trains or identification, you can't argue that games are anything more than a hobby. Why is your hobby more important than other people's safety, according to my statistics linking video games to violent behavior? I am both a gun owner and a gamer and I happen to know that my owning guns doesn't activate a secret impulse to kill any more than playing GTA 4 does.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;52955289]Which is why I said when we get self driving cars then standard ones ought to be illegal. where then [editline]7th December 2017[/editline] So in all 3 of those cases, the origin of the gun is a legal purchase? Then if nobody were able to legally purchase a gun, where would the guns come from?[/QUOTE] You may be one of the densest people on this forum, and I say that with as little spite as I can. Why not remove cars from people on their first traffic infraction? Why not throw all your public funding into mandatory public transportation? Why not require all people to work from home, unless government approved employee transportation transports them to and from their workplace? As for where these people get their guns, they get them from where Grenadiac already pointed it out. I'm sure you could connect every crime in history to some legal origin. Thankfully, no one is dumb enough to legislate like that.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;52955315]The things you sarcastically pretended we should ban are not tools designed to kill people. Their capacity to kill is incidental and banning them would disrupt daily life. The capacity of a gun to kill is intentional, and banning them would not disrupt daily life. Guns and playgrounds aren't in the same category.[/QUOTE] It effects my life. It effects his life. People should be allowed to live their lives and do what they want as long as they don't harm others. Prevent guns from falling into the hands of criminals, have the ATF actually enforce straw purchases, work on why people want to kill each other.

Sounds like proboardslol just wants a nanny state

[QUOTE=Revenge282;52955321]You may be one of the densest people on this forum, and I say that with as little spite as I can. Why not remove cars from people on their first traffic infraction? [/quote] We ought to take away one's driver's license on your first DUI or if you kill (or nearly kill) someone due to your recklessness, though I think many states and counties already do this [quote] Why not throw all your public funding into mandatory public transportation? [/quote] Because cars are still a very necessary form of transporation. Guns, however, are not a form of transportation. Guns and cars are not in the same category. [quote]Why not require all people to work from home, unless government approved employee transportation transports them to and from their workplace?[/quote] Because this would disrupt daily life. [quote]As for where these people get their guns, they get them from where Grenadiac already pointed it out. I'm sure you could connect every crime in history to some legal origin. Thankfully, no one is dumb enough to legislate like that.[/QUOTE] If guns were made illegal, where would guns that criminals use originate from? [editline]7th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;52955318]Banning guns disrupts daily life (permanently) for a lot of people, according to homicide rates in Chicago and Compton, but ok. Let's look at something else. In the mid-2000s the anti-video game crusade was at its peak. Lawyers like Jack Thompson wanted to implement a video game ban based on statistics loosely linking violent behavior in kids to playing video games. As a gamer, you know that's ridiculous, but unlike trains or identification, you can't argue that games are anything more than a hobby. Why is your hobby more important than other people's safety, according to my statistics linking video games to violent behavior? I am both a gun owner and a gamer and I happen to know that my owning guns doesn't activate a secret impulse to kill any more than playing GTA 4 does.[/QUOTE] Videogames are not tools used to kill people. Videogames and guns are not in the same category

[QUOTE=proboardslol;52955337]If guns were made illegal, where would guns that criminals use originate from?[/QUOTE] Let's ask Australia: [url]http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/16/australian-police-10-firearms-seized-homemade/[/url] [quote]Videogames are not tools used to kill people. Videogames and guns are not in the same category[/QUOTE] My guns aren't tools used to kill people.

[QUOTE=PaChIrA;52955326]Sounds like proboardslol just wants a nanny state[/QUOTE] No, I have already replied to the people in this thread suggesting that the logical extreme of my view is to ban everything. This is, however, a dishonest strawman, and you are a dishonest person for supporting it. [editline]7th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;52955342]Let's ask Australia: [url]http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/16/australian-police-10-firearms-seized-homemade/[/url][/QUOTE] I think I would prefer crappy homemade guns which are expensive and hard to get over industrially manufactured guns which are cheaper and easier to get.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;52955343]No, I have already replied to the people in this thread suggesting that the logical extreme of my view is to ban everything. This is, however, a dishonest strawman, and you are a dishonest person for supporting it.[/QUOTE] You legit said you want to ban cars once self driving becomes a thing?

[QUOTE=darkrei9n;52955324]It effects my life. It effects his life. People should be allowed to live their lives and do what they want as long as they don't harm others. Prevent guns from falling into the hands of criminals, have the ATF actually enforce straw purchases, work on why people want to kill each other.[/QUOTE] Do you need guns?

Proboards if you are not comfortable with other people enjoying freedoms that you don't personally use, then America is not the place for you.

I love the idea that people think you could just ban guns and all crime would go away. It’s really funny because it’s so delusional