[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;47627252]Lol as if anyone else can't do that. You're already being indirectly influenced by propaganda which demonizes Russia (and it works considering you unironically spout things like this) and it works in your government's favor because it gives them even more control and gets you off their backs.[/QUOTE]
I feel like I see you post inflammatory remarks or at least semi in any SH headline involving a bad spotlight on good ol Russia.
Funny but just something I felt was interesting info
[editline]30th April 2015[/editline]
Usually along the lines of "You think Russia is X? BAH! US is so X you don't even know it!"
vice is propaganda also
[QUOTE=LVL FACTORY;47630217]vice is propaganda also[/QUOTE]
How so? Is this grossly misrepresenting the situation in Russia? Did the people involved in the interviews not say the things they did?
Watching this right now. Seems about right, sadly. "Fifth column", my ass. Can't even contain my anger about all this bullshit that politicians are throwing around, 100% convinced in their own lies, and further reinforcing the stagnation of Russian cultural, political, and, that should go without saying, economical growth. Fucking disastrous.
[QUOTE=Kefirman;47630346]Watching this right now. Seems about right, sadly. "Fifth column", my ass. Can't even contain my anger about all this bullshit that politicians are throwing around, 100% convinced in their own lies, and further reinforcing the stagnation of Russian cultural, political, and, that should go without saying, economical growth. Fucking disastrous.[/QUOTE]
"Fifth column" especially pisses me off to no end. A retarded way of calling people "enemies of the state" without actually calling them that, weasel word. So overused that it means fuck all now.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;47630337]How so? Is this grossly misrepresenting the situation in Russia? Did the people involved in the interviews not say the things they did?[/QUOTE]
Vice doesn't hide the fact that they pursue gonzo journalism, it's not objective. And sometimes it can literally be bordering on propaganda.
[QUOTE=gudman;47630764]"Fifth column" especially pisses me off to no end. A retarded way of calling people "enemies of the state" without actually calling them that, weasel word. So overused that it means fuck all now.[/QUOTE]
I thought "Fifth Column" was some kind of meme. I never knew what it actually means.
Speaking of silencing tv station like TV Rain, one local tv channel in my town (TV2) was also shut down. Allegedly it happened they've shown an episode last year where they were asking Ukraine people their opinion on Euromaiden. Since then Ministry of Communication refused to give them a license to broadcast and now this channel is long gone. ([url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30374615[/url])
freedom of speech is not granted and goverment controlled media. It sucks. Ksenia sobchak is the only person whos managed to be so edgy and stay alive, so many radio and tv people and bloggers have mysteriously vanished all for the sake of the propoganda machine being unapposed and it works perfectly well. My mom loves Putin and hates Ukranians and gays so well done poots
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;47626954]How, exactly?
Last time I checked I can say negative things about the government and I can also say that it's okay to not be straight, and I don't have to fear the police kicking down my door or someone mysteriously giving me a copper jacketed time out.[/QUOTE]
Supression of free speech is not the same as a government taking over parts of, or all of the media to propagate their morals, ideals and their views of the news.
And THAT, my man, is something that happens a LOT in the US, as well as in Europe.
The fact that you don't see this, probably means it's working.
[QUOTE=MyAlt91;47631114]Supression of free speech is not the same as a government taking over parts of, or all of the media to propagate their morals, ideals and their views of the news.
And THAT, my man, is something that happens a LOT in the US, as well as in Europe.
The fact that you don't see this, probably means it's working.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to see the evidence behind the US government's involvement in Fox News
[editline]30th April 2015[/editline]
And I'm not talking a senator/congressman/candidate dropping a few dollars here and there, I want to know exactly how the [I]government itself[/I] is manipulating and ordering stations like Fox News (who is critical of almost anything governmental) to say what they want them to say
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;47631186]I'd like to see the evidence behind the US government's involvement in Fox News
[editline]30th April 2015[/editline]
And I'm not talking a senator/congressman/candidate dropping a few dollars here and there, I want to know exactly how the [I]government itself[/I] is manipulating and ordering stations like Fox News (who is critical of almost anything governmental) to say what they want them to say[/QUOTE]
[B]taking over parts of, or all of the[/B]
And actually I'd see senators / congressman / candidates as part of a government too, but then I might have the term government wrong.
[QUOTE=MyAlt91;47631114]Supression of free speech is not the same as a government taking over parts of, or all of the media to propagate their morals, ideals and their views of the news.
And THAT, my man, is something that happens a LOT in the US, as well as in Europe.
The fact that you don't see this, probably means it's working.[/QUOTE]
Um actually it's the billionaires, we have a serious issue with the rich having influence with their cash in almost every sector of our system, they have some control within our government as well.
But yes, there surely is a different amount of government controlled media in the US and Russia.
[B]Edit:[/B]
My main point was that there's a difference in government controlled, or maybe I should just call it "biased media" and supression of free speech.
And the difference in free speech and free media, as well.
[b]Edit:[/b]
For someone so uppity on symantics I suck at using correct terms sometimes. :downs:
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;47631186]I'd like to see the evidence behind the US government's involvement in Fox News
[editline]30th April 2015[/editline]
And I'm not talking a senator/congressman/candidate dropping a few dollars here and there, I want to know exactly how the [I]government itself[/I] is manipulating and ordering stations like Fox News (who is critical of almost anything governmental) to say what they want them to say[/QUOTE]
I forgot the entire thing, but wasn't there some declassified stuff about connections to nixon? Seem to remember something like that posted here a few years ago.
[QUOTE=ghghop;47629958]I feel like I see you post inflammatory remarks or at least semi in any SH headline involving a bad spotlight on good ol Russia.
Funny but just something I felt was interesting info
[editline]30th April 2015[/editline]
Usually along the lines of "You think Russia is X? BAH! US is so X you don't even know it!"[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism[/url]
[QUOTE=Cornish;47630918]freedom of speech is not granted and goverment controlled media. It sucks. Ksenia sobchak is the only person whos managed to be so edgy and stay alive, so many radio and tv people and bloggers have mysteriously vanished all for the sake of the propoganda machine being unapposed and it works perfectly well. My mom loves Putin and hates Ukranians and gays so well done poots[/QUOTE]
Having a father who helped Putin rise to power sure helps a lot in avoiding troubles.
[QUOTE=gudman;47626604]It doesn't. Propaganda by definition is supposed to influence the opinion of general public. General public doesn't give a fuck, the only people who actually pay attention already have their opinions set in stone, they aren't changing it no matter what. That's a large number of people still, but not anywhere near the numbers propaganda is supposed to influence. That's the ones who vote, and how many people vote? 20%, and of them only around 50% actively vote for Putin's course.
The problem arises from the fact that this minority goes completely unchallenged.[/QUOTE]
Completely disagreed.
First, a lot of people do vote. Way over 50% for sure. I mean the regions where people don't live in "aul"s.
Second, I have seen people get brainwashed by that shit. Mostly neutral not giving a damn people becoming strongly "HOORAH-RUSSIA FUCK GAYROP".
Most people don't give a fuck. But they still have this bullshit in background all the time. Even if they dont actively follow politics they overhear all that bullshit from TV, then carry it to their friends in casual conversation, etc. Just ask a random guy in the street about US. Most likely he will go all "Oooh evil USA is gonna pay for their crimes soon!"
Or check Однокласники. People are fucked in the head because that propoganda is the only shit they hear all day long. These people would belive in gay marriage, ethernal love and peace if the news onlytalked about that.
[editline]1st May 2015[/editline]
I would say it's not so much "Putins machine" to blame, it's the mentality. None of this would happen if our people weren't so ignorant, so eager to blame others for their problems, so eager to deny historic facts, so eager to believe that some higher entity always knows better.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47634592]Completely disagreed.
First, a lot of people do vote. Way over 50% for sure. I mean the regions where people don't live in "aul"s.
Second, I have seen people get brainwashed by that shit. Mostly neutral not giving a damn people becoming strongly "HOORAH-RUSSIA FUCK GAYROP".
Most people don't give a fuck. But they still have this bullshit in background all the time. Even if they dont actively follow politics they overhear all that bullshit from TV, then carry it to their friends in casual conversation, etc. Just ask a random guy in the street about US. Most likely he will go all "Oooh evil USA is gonna pay for their crimes soon!"
Or check Однокласники. People are fucked in the head because that propoganda is the only shit they hear all day long. These people would belive in gay marriage, ethernal love and peace if the news onlytalked about that.
[editline]1st May 2015[/editline]
I would say it's not so much "Putins machine" to blame, it's the mentality. None of this would happen if our people weren't so ignorant, so eager to blame others for their problems, so eager to deny historic facts, so eager to believe that some higher entity always knows better.[/QUOTE]
Did I miss something, where exactly "way over 50%" turnout? Presidentials? Of course, but who talks about that, it's parliamentary and local parliamentary elections that matter to measure opinion, and people generally fucking ignore that or vote in bullshit. Presidential elections measure who people like more, it means literally nothing. There's no course, no program, nothing. Just figureheads.
Yeah, I too have seen that. Once or twice, others either have their opinion, most just doesn't watch the TV and ignore this altogether.
USA evil - well no surprise, we've been told that for a century, no wonder Putin's propaganda is riding the coattails of those who came before. Not their invention, not their achievement.
Social media means fuck all.
Everything else - yeah, I agree. Thing is, Putin's propaganda is quite a bit more than just USA EVIL and Gay-rope, it's internal shit too. Economy. And nobody believes a word of that stuff. Everything else has been hammered in by the Soviets.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/7xD2pYi.png[/t]
blatant lying, comparable to denying the holocaust happened
What's the opposition like? I think that more and more people are getting aware of this nonsense, is that true?
[QUOTE=Recurracy;47639734]
What's the opposition like? I think that more and more people are getting aware of this nonsense, is that true?[/QUOTE]
Clowns. No real strategy of acting, no movement... really disjointed, which causes clashes between it's members. Everyone, who decided to vote for any other party except it's own is being shamed as a biggest fool ever born on Earth, each new law is being shown in negative light as "another attempt of bloody tzar Putin to kill and drain Russia".
They even not ashamed to fake information, like one of members shown big lists of Russian soldiers who died on Ukraine, but some guy found out, that names were taken from numerous WW2 poems. After that, she deleted those lists and denied that she created them in first place.
And the most dangerous situation - how foreign media glorifies them, just because they "Oppose" Putin. Like Nemtsov, who was made a "sacral victim of bloody regime" even though he left political stuff a long time ago, or Navalny, whose political agenda had only one point - "remove current president". Nothing about how he plans to improve country, economics, or something like this - just this one.
Some people say that every "real" opposition would be killed by goverment. I disagree, as any real opposition wouldbe ashamed to call themselves that, because of these opposing assholes.
[QUOTE=Recurracy;47639734][t]http://i.imgur.com/7xD2pYi.png[/t]
blatant lying, comparable to denying the holocaust happened
What's the opposition like? I think that more and more people are getting aware of this nonsense, is that true?[/QUOTE]
The oposition is at times worse and more ridicolous than the official line. And you really have to be trying to be worse than that.
Also, no, no more people are getting aware of anything. Most of those who don't believe the officials usually believe in some other bullshit.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47641273]The oposition is at times worse and more ridicolous than the official line. And you really have to be trying to be worse than that.
Also, no, no more people are getting aware of anything. Most of those who don't believe the officials usually believe in some other bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Since I'm not well versed in russian internal politics, what is the opposition's ridiculous rhetoric?
[QUOTE=Kazumi;47641359]Since I'm not well versed in russian internal politics, what is the opposition's ridiculous rhetoric?[/QUOTE]
"We just remove the Putin and magic happens", "Russia needs to join NATO asap, everybody to the west of our border lives the right way of life and we should copy it", "Our goal is democracy, but we shouldn't let these brainwashed soviet nostalgists vote".
The liberals are extremely notorious with the last one. They call for democracy, but every time an election happens they go like "Oh my god why do we even let these brainwashed dummies vote, they are clearly not sentinent enough".
I will give a quote, translated almost literally. Though I don't remember from which newspaper it is exactly, but I think its meduza.io:
"The will of majority is always the side of evil. The majority is stupid, hence the majority is the side of orcs, the side of Mordor"
I mean, they literally said it. The guys calling for democracy and complaining about unjust voting.
I also love how they refer to the majority of population as "orcs".
While the officials tends to glorify the past achievements and conceal past mistakes (Stalin revolutionized the economy and the repressions happened while he wasnt looking) the oposition equally ridicolously hyperbolizes past mistakes and doesn't notice any achievements (Stalin drowned everyone in blood, was a psychopath, the soviets were all crazy oppresive maniacs, the white army was led by the only sane people in the country and it was supported by Britain only because Britain is europe and europe only wants love and peace for everybody).
The oposition has so far played the same game as the officials: play on feelings of people to get popularity while objectively changing and doing nothing. I mean they don't suggest how to make the economy not raw resource export oriented, they don't even mention such problems. They just point out the obvious:"Look guys, corruption around! We need to topple evil empire!"
Overall they are just as detached from reality as the officials are. Sadly.
That sounds depressing af, I can understand now why people are so demoralised
[QUOTE=Recurracy;47641464]That sounds depressing af, I can understand now why people are so demoralised[/QUOTE]
And this is why most people still vote for Putin. There is no real alternative, every side is equally shitty, but at least you know what to expect from him.
Soo i got few heartwarming messages and i guess i can now a spew out a quick summary of what i think regarding said vids, topic and few non less relevant things, here we go:
Video's info is pretty much true. As mentioned here already, there are cases of goverment propaganda, overglorification and "pseudo-patriotic" movements.
Now what is missed form video is that most of such organisations are hardly direct controlled from goverment, wich has only few of those on a close leash.
Many others are nothing but a result of band wagon aproach toward forming a political movements apealing to young audience. Cause believe it or not, young audience dislikes russian goverment, but exlusively loves Mr. President. Soo most of those are essentially... fan clubs.
You might ask yourself, why?
Well, to understand that you need to sent your thoughts back to 2005 or something among the lines.
Whole world was praising on Putin for his hard hitting on oligarchs and forging "the one party to rule them all". USA loved Putin, Europe loved Putin, and no one was giving a damn about shady stuff happening, cause he was fitting in political picture like a glove. Strong iconic leader for big Russia [B]Urraa[/B].
And this is mostly why people love him, they see that "hatred" being a mere reaction to "yet another strong move" that follows his world recognised achievments. They see world hating Putin out of fear that he at last stoped playing "by the book" and started pursuit of his own goals agenda rather than trying to simply fit in.
Another card that plays to that is a great example of double standards that now exists near our borders. Amount of bullshit that Ukraine's goverment allowed to do in regard to human rights, media control, corruption, financical incompetence and history overglorification is given a silent approval from rest of the world, clearly indicating that it's not troubles of Russian politics or economics being reason for concern, but rather just a course Russian goverment has picked up. And that course is being disregard for outdated political world standards in pursuit of own agenda and ambitions.
Something that Russian goverment had picked up on from few other countries and something that population is welcoming as indication of strong independant position.
As of "Rain" and opposition, muffin and Ackel nailed that to the core. There is sadly no alternative to current goverment, and thanks to clusterfuck that Eltsin's rule followed back in 90's, liberal agenda will be forever associated with puppets and incompetence, whenever reasonable or not.
I hope you guys don't mind, but I'm saving your posts for people to read. You help a great deal in getting people to see things from your perspective and understanding the situation at hand. I've been discussing it lately with a few coworkers and friends, they're so stuck in their own biased opinion of the average Vladimir [sp]russian average joe[/sp].
Just PM me if I should delete them.
[QUOTE=Recurracy;47644155]I hope you guys don't mind, but I'm saving your posts for people to read. You help a great deal in getting people to see things from your perspective and understanding the situation at hand. I've been discussing it lately with a few coworkers and friends, they're so stuck in their own biased opinion of the average Vladimir [sp]russian average joe[/sp].
Just PM me if I should delete them.[/QUOTE]
Not my business, but trying to change someone's political views is a great way to ruin the relationship forever. So if I were you I wouldn't ever touch that subject at work. Most likely you won't achieve anything, and even if you do the political picture will change a year later and there will be new conflicting opinions again.
Sad stuff.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47644350]Not my business, but trying to change someone's political views is a great way to ruin the relationship forever. So if I were you I wouldn't ever touch that subject at work. Most likely you won't achieve anything, and even if you do the political picture will change a year later and there will be new conflicting opinions again.
Sad stuff.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, the safest aproach (if you to take one) is to bring everyone to middle ground, where both sides merely lean toward their stances out of moral prefences, but still retain capability to question their own sources, having insight in historical paralels over comic books that has little to nothing having with modern world. There is no good and bad guys, and if someone takes a spotlight, it's defiantly not out of honestly good intentions - demonisation, whenever by old fashioned propaganda or "counter-acting journalism" benefits by shifting attention and whitewashing actions of faction opposing "the big bad", giving them justification for decisions that would otherwise be frowned upon.
Another thing to remember is that media sphere and journalism even when not appearing to be direct controlled by goverment, still can reflect on stances that benefit sponsors, follow a trend that is expected by audience, or exist as harmless anchor for society's concern - the best examples for USA readers(in my opinion) would be all then numerous surveliance scandals that althought gained huge amount of coverage, led to but a few scape goats exposition, a rather non efficient solution.
I do not call up to be paranoid, but rather restrain from emotional responce when dealing with coverage of world wide important events - your reaction can be used as a tool in interests that has little to do with your own believes.
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