Belgium police attack: Man shouting 'Allahu Akbar' attacks two officers in Charleroi with machete - Polidicks

[QUOTE=bitches;50840735]What I said was that communities impose their beliefs onto their members. This can be a religious ideology, or other ideology. Whatever values these are that a community imprints onto its youth, they can be either constructive or destructive beliefs. They can advocate peace or they can breed violence. I made the point that because [I]some[/I] communities claim to adhere to a religious text and breed violence, yet others claim to adhere to that same text and advocate strongly [I]against[/I] violence, the religion is clearly not the source but rather only the excuse. To prove the point: Do you believe that muslim children [I]worldwide[/I] are taught to kill apostates? You made the verbatim claim that muslims are taught to kill apostates and that therefore their religion caused attacks such as the one of this news thread. How can you explain the vast proportion difference between radical beliefs in ISIS territory versus comparative absence of violence demonstrated by american muslims that condemn violence? I'm not defending the religion at all. I can say this more directly: I dislike the religion of Islam. That doesn't mean that I believe all those who claim to follow Islam believe in murdering me, or any other forms of violence against supposed infidels. It is very clear that community beliefs have less to do with religion and more to do with regional stability.[/QUOTE] Oh come on, religion is not the source but the excuse? You don't think having a holy text considered the literal word of god maybe has something to do with their belief system? You're delusional if you seriously think Islam is just a convenient excuse for people who have randomly decided against all odds to support a very specific set of violent beliefs and practices in their lives. Perfect point incoming: [QUOTE=Thlis;50840756]This is frankly the most absurd argument I have seen. By this logic the Nazi ideology should not be criticized, just the people that practice it.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=bitches;50840735] To prove the point: Do you believe that muslim children [I]worldwide[/I] are taught to kill apostates? [/QUOTE] That's taught in sharia law, which is the cornerstone of Islam. So yes, yes that is being taught globally. And again, under islam you or i would be killed. How are you defending it [QUOTE=bitches;50840735] That doesn't mean that I believe all those who claim to follow Islam believe in murdering me, or any other forms of violence against supposed infidels.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612-CSP-Polling-Company-Nationwide-Online-Survey-of-Muslims-Topline-Poll-Data.pdf"]YES THEY DO. [/URL] Not literally every single Muslim in the world, but at least [URL="http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612-CSP-Polling-Company-Nationwide-Online-Survey-of-Muslims-Topline-Poll-Data.pdf"]30% in western countries[/URL], to [URL="http://www.pewglobal.org/files/pdf/265.pdf"]90%+ in Islamic countries.[/URL]

[QUOTE=Thlis;50840756]That is irrelevant to the question. Quite frankly it's become apparent that arguing with you is pointless since the following post: This is frankly the most absurd argument I have seen. By this logic the Nazi ideology should not be criticized, just the people that practice it.[/QUOTE] I didn't say that ideology can't be criticized. As I said in my previous post, I don't like the religion of Islam. I said that Islam is not a direct cause of violent beliefs, and you've done nothing to discredit this claim. [editline]6th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;50840764]That's taught in sharia law, which is the cornerstone of Islam. So yes, yes that is being taught globally. And again, under islam you or i would be killed. How are you defending it[/QUOTE] I didn't defend Islam. I'm defending the many muslims who claim to practice Islam without actually believing in it. I would similarly defend Christians who claim they follow texts that condemn homosexuality, but who personally believe in peace and equality.

[QUOTE=bitches;50840768] I didn't defend Islam. I'm defending the many muslims who claim to practice Islam without actually believing in it. I would similarly defend Christians who claim they follow texts that condemn homosexuality, but who personally believe in peace and equality.[/QUOTE] If they don't believe in it, why we should avoid criticizing it to "defend" them? If you claim to be a Christian/Muslim/Le Vayan Satanist/etc and your ideology has tenants you disagree with, then you should push for reformation and encourage criticism of it, otherwise you obviously are for it, apathetic to it, or entrapped by it. It is frankly horrifying to me that we are at a point where we cannot criticize something for fear of being called a racist, even when it's not even a race issue.

[QUOTE=bitches;50840768]I didn't defend Islam. I'm defending [B]the many muslims who claim to practice Islam without actually believing in it[/B]. I would similarly defend Christians who claim they follow texts that condemn homosexuality, but who personally believe in peace and equality.[/QUOTE] What universe do you live in where there is a significant number of "Muslims" who just straight-up don't believe in Islam? You're talking about a demographic roughly equivalent to black white-supremacists.

[QUOTE=Thlis;50840782]If they don't believe in it, why we should avoid criticizing it to "defend" them?[/QUOTE] I never said people should avoid criticizing the religion of Islam. I'm only arguing over claiming that Islam is the direct problem. I've repeatedly made the point that communities raise their youth to follow their local community's ethics, which are often morally superior to those of their religious texts. I personally don't follow any religious beliefs. In my eyes, most practitioners have beliefs that contradict those of their texts. Criticizing a religion is fine, but saying that a religion is the end-of-story instigator of violence done under the name of religion does nothing to address the deeper issues of cultural instability that arise from military conflicts and poor living conditions. This is evidenced by the stark difference between muslims raised by terrorist communities versus first world communities. Perhaps I'm too jumpy, but it seems to me that claiming the religion is the problem is far too close to claiming that all those who practice the religion are the problem.

[QUOTE=bitches;50840768] I didn't defend Islam. I'm defending the many muslims who claim to practice Islam without actually believing in it. I would similarly defend Christians who claim they follow texts that condemn homosexuality, but who personally believe in peace and equality.[/QUOTE] What. Firstly, you're absolutely ignoring the studies i'm posting. Secondly, in the protestant new testiment, the Christianity you're thinking of, there are no verses condemning being gay, and certainly no death penalty. There are one or two translations which have one verse with jesus condeming it, but in all other translations, he's condemning prostitution. My dad is a hardcore christian, i've brought it up with him and several pastors. To compare a majority of christians to a vast minority of muslims is irrational and disingenuous as all hell. Also. [QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;50840764] [QUOTE]That doesn't mean that I believe all those who claim to follow Islam believe in murdering me, or any other forms of violence against supposed infidels[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612-CSP-Polling-Company-Nationwide-Online-Survey-of-Muslims-Topline-Poll-Data.pdf"]YES THEY DO.[/URL] Not literally every single Muslim in the world, but at least [URL="http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612-CSP-Polling-Company-Nationwide-Online-Survey-of-Muslims-Topline-Poll-Data.pdf"]30% in western countries[/URL], to [URL="http://www.pewglobal.org/files/pdf/265.pdf"]90%+ in Islamic countries.[/URL][/QUOTE] I dare you to rebuke this.

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;50840809]What. Firstly, you're absolutely ignoring the studies i'm posting. Secondly, in the protestant new testiment, the Christianity you're thinking of, there are no verses condemning being gay, and certainly no death penalty. There are one or two translations which have one verse with jesus condeming it, but in all other translations, he's condemning prostitution. My dad is a hardcore christian, i've brought it up with him and several pastors. To compare a majority of christians to a vast minority of muslims is irrational and disgenenious. Also. I dare you to rebuke this.[/QUOTE] If you're actually making the claim that literally all people who say they follow Islam are violent, this conversation is over and I am thoroughly disgusted. It's this kind of belief that breeds hateful rhetoric against their communities, which does the world no favors. Ironically, the blind hate against muslim communites in america causes more islamic violence than the text ever will in the US.

I'm saying that's what islam teaches, and here's the number people who uphold that those beliefs should not only be enforced, but that they should come before the laws of our countries. There is no other conclusion to draw. If that makes you sick, islam makes you sick. And you are arguing that teaching violence, not only in a cultural way, but as a holy mandate does not begat violence.

[QUOTE=bitches;50840817][B]If you're actually making the claim that literally all people[/B] who say they follow Islam are violent, this conversation is over and I am thoroughly disgusted. It's this kind of belief that breeds hateful rhetoric against their communities, which does the world no favors.[/QUOTE] He didn't say all, he posted a poll saying 30% in Western countries and +90% in Islamic countries [QUOTE=bitches;50840817]It's this kind of belief that breeds hateful rhetoric against their communities, which does the world no favors. Ironically, the blind hate against muslim communites in america causes more islamic violence than the text ever will in the US.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1529776&p=50839992&viewfull=1#post50839992"] I'm just going to link to my first post, Ouroboros up this shit.[/URL]

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;50840729]Ok now you're just delusional. I said if 1% of christians wanted that, people would go crazy condemning it. Although i could've been clearer, i'm sure any neutral reader would see that meaning[/QUOTE]I got what you meant just fine. That said I think Islam at it's core is incompatible with Western society, a fundamentalist who takes everything quite literally can easily justify violence either in the Qur'an itself or one of the many associated religious texts detailing Mohamed as a prophet. (he was a fucking warlord, if Muslims are to emulate their prophet in all ways then it's a no brainer they kill people) Thing is though for quite a few Muslims they're not at all "good Muslims" according to these literal views and find a compromise between their faith and what we have now. Much like the Christian Identity fucks who think the Old Testament totally counts (it doesn't) have an ideology and just pretend their book matches up. On another note,[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50840679]This isn't true. You're just claiming it.[/QUOTE] Actually the mechanism of radicalization is pretty much universal, with enough motivation and emotion almost the entire population [I]worldwide[/I] can be incited to do [I]something[/I] and no matter how awful or terrible it is they'll pretend with their little, itty bitty hearts that it's okay because [I]reasons.[/I] What reasons? Fill in the fucking black because it's rationalization power hour so if you can make it up it's probably true! That means you, me, bitches, Trilby, all of us, there's some way a man with a silver tongue and a clever mind can take your beliefs and bend them to suit his agenda. Hate Islam? Well I'm sure I or somebody else could convince you to kill Muslims. Oh not [I]all[/I] Muslims, just [I]these[/I] Muslims because they're [B]bad.[/B] That's the game of every recruiter for every terrorist network from the Hebrew Zealots to the Sons of Liberty to the Fenian Brotherhood all the way up to al-Qaeda today. Sure it helps if you [I]really[/I] hate the people they want you to kill but even people on the fence will do if they're desperate enough. You might think that you're not capable of standing there and pulling a trigger, facing a man down and looking him in the eyes as you take his life, but the Arabs thought of a way around that: the suicide bomber. Instead of attacks using small arms and shooting up the place or taking hostages the concept of a man who detonates an explosive strapped to him is a brutally effective one. Tell some kid that he's helping his family and he'll like, totally go to heaven and have sex with over seventy hot babes, well that's a pretty easy sell if that boy happens to be some dumb fuck peasant. Where does Islam play into that? The reward. That's it. It's a carrot. A bushy, pussy-shaped carrot (seventy two actually) that has no meaningful ideological purpose for our little suicide bomber. Nope, the guy who sends him off is the zealot, this boy is just the guided missile, and he really, [I]really[/I] isn't that big on Islam. Sure, Islam may be the cause the zealot who recruits takes on but it isn't for all the little pawns he controls. As far as Islam's role it's minor, one man is all it counts for, everyone else is just meat. Sometimes they have a bomb, sometimes they have a truck, sometime they have a machete but there's a common theme: they're all shit for brains nobodies who get roped in by a snake in the grass.

[QUOTE=Thlis;50840823]He didn't say all, he posted a poll saying 30% in Western countries and +90% in Islamic countries[/QUOTE] hyperbole is the hallmark of an idiot

[QUOTE=bitches;50840817]If you're actually making the claim that literally all people who say they follow Islam are violent, this conversation is over and I am thoroughly disgusted. It's this kind of belief that breeds hateful rhetoric against their communities, which does the world no favors. Ironically, the blind hate against muslim communites in america causes more islamic violence than the text ever will in the US.[/QUOTE] There's something really tragic about getting an insight into the mind of someone who is so needlessly apologetic for this religion. You aren't even reading what he's saying at this point, you're like the politicians who are asked a difficult question and start deflecting and shutting down the conversation with feigned disgust. I don't see him saying that "literally all people who say they follow Islam are violent", I just see him posting statistics that seem to indicate the majority globally are, and a statistically frightening number of them locally are as well. I can't tell if you seriously believe the things you're posting right now or if you're just trying to save face after being proven wrong on pretty much every point you've tried to make.

[QUOTE=bitches;50840817]Ironically, the blind hate against muslim communites in america causes more islamic violence than the text ever will in the US.[/QUOTE] Be nice to us or we will shoot you and blow you up. [QUOTE=Thlis;50840782] It is frankly horrifying to me that we are at a point where we cannot criticize something for fear of being called a racist, even when it's not even a race issue.[/QUOTE] You'll be okay.

Well since bitches has decided to go home [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50840825] Actually the mechanism of radicalization is pretty much universal, with enough motivation and emotion almost the entire population [I]worldwide[/I] can be incited to do [I]something[/I] and no matter how awful or terrible it is they'll pretend with their little, itty bitty hearts that it's okay because [I]reasons.[/I] What reasons? Fill in the fucking black because it's rationalization power hour so if you can make it up it's probably true! That means you, me, bitches, Trilby, all of us, there's some way a man with a silver tongue and a clever mind can take your beliefs and bend them to suit his agenda. [/QUOTE] Oh absolutely. Which is why I argue that the only way to stop fundie islam, is by holding them accountable to precisely the same standards as we hold ourselves. No persecution, but certainly no special treatment. Over time, the local populations will integrate, and hopefully, ultimately cause an internal reformation as western, moderate muslims start to condemn and debate over fundie islam. but of course, to effectively do so, we as a culture must remember our founding principals. Adam Smith's economic theory, greek philosophers like Plato or Aristotle, contemporary philosiphers like Kant, and our system of laws, legal equalities and rights, based on Justinian's legal reformations, and even post lutharian christianity. the list goes on. All of which i see being eroded away by neo liberal, post modern marxist bullshit, which has never led to anything but the dismantling of the concept of personal merit and achievement. And in today's form, is beginning to dismiss the concept of an individual's agency in the face of their "class" of race, gender or intersectional web of bullshit. [QUOTE] Hate Islam? Well I'm sure I or somebody else could convince you to kill Muslims. Oh not [I]all[/I] Muslims, just [I]these[/I] Muslims because they're [B]bad.[/B] That's the game of every recruiter for every terrorist network from the Hebrew Zealots to the Sons of Liberty to the Fenian Brotherhood all the way up to al-Qaeda today. Sure it helps if you [I]really[/I] hate the people they want you to kill but even people on the fence will do if they're desperate enough. You might think that you're not capable of standing there and pulling a trigger, facing a man down and looking him in the eyes as you take his life, but the Arabs thought of a way around that: the suicide bomber. Instead of attacks using small arms and shooting up the place or taking hostages the concept of a man who detonates an explosive strapped to him is a brutally effective one. Tell some kid that he's helping his family and he'll like, totally go to heaven and have sex with over seventy hot babes, well that's a pretty easy sell if that boy happens to be some dumb fuck peasant. Where does Islam play into that? The reward. That's it. It's a carrot. A bushy, pussy-shaped carrot (seventy two actually) that has no meaningful ideological purpose for our little suicide bomber. Nope, the guy who sends him off is the zealot, this boy is just the guided missile, and he really, [I]really[/I] isn't that big on Islam. Sure, Islam may be the cause the zealot who recruits takes on but it isn't for all the little pawns he controls. As far as Islam's role it's minor, one man is all it counts for, everyone else is just meat. Sometimes they have a bomb, sometimes they have a truck, sometime they have a machete but there's a common theme: they're all shit for brains nobodies who get roped in by a snake in the grass.[/QUOTE] I very much disagree here. It's a fundamental part of islam to strike out and expand through non believer's territory. Both on a theological and physical level. Stuff like the 72 virgins thing isn't actually from Islam, Jihad's only "official" rewards is a garunteed entrance to heaven, and amnesty of all sins in the eyes of allah. Pretty sure it was Al Queda's predesessor that came up with the virgins thing in particular. For regular terrorist groups, what you say is absolutely true, but again, Islam is different. ISIS's sole mandate is to establish an islamic state, to the exclusion of all else. I very much reccomend you read up in islamic texts, especially the Hadith, i promise you that your opinion on islam's role in terrorism will change

[QUOTE=Raidyr;50840887]You'll be okay.[/QUOTE] I'll admit horrifying is a strong word but it's a pretty big problem. It's two pronged, it derides people when they may have a good point, and it waters down the meaning of the word racist.

I'll hammer this out fast:[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;50840912]Pretty sure it was Al Queda's predesessor that came up with the virgins thing in particular.[/QUOTE]Yeah, it was. I can't remember the imam's name off-hand but I believe it was a Sunni cleric when actual Islamic extremism was rising. Interesting time, few people are aware of what was happening in the Middle East during the early Cold War. [QUOTE]For regular terrorist groups, what you say is absolutely true, but again, Islam is different.[/QUOTE]Their theocratic basis doesn't really change anything, just the risk and reward paradigm and extends the recruiting pool in a certain direction. [QUOTE]I very much reccomend you read up in islamic texts, especially the Hadith, i promise you that your opinion on islam's role in terrorism will change[/QUOTE]I can probably start reciting translated excerpts at this point.

I guess we're arguing for the same points then. Whoops

[QUOTE=Thlis;50840627]Do you really think that being told every day that apostates should die doesn't have a psychological effect?[/QUOTE] Sorry, who's being told apostates should die every day? Every Muslim? Because I'm pretty sure it's not every Muslim. It's actually just the super-minority that have become invested in Jihadist groups thanks to propaganda you can easily find online for whatever reason. Funky interpretations of their holy text, a feeling of disenfranchisement with their current environment, the feeling they are being oppressed in their current environment, retardation, peer pressure. "You should totes go a kill white folk" isn't going to make for a good sermon at the local mosque, and doesn't provide any of the feel-good feelies that a lot of people tend to stick to a religion for in the first place. You're not going to radicalise 99.999% of the population by just saying "but the BOOK SAYS!" because most people can see that's retarded. Fringe groups this small should not dictate how we see the rest of the super-group they diverged from.

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;50840647] Now imagine you're taught the Quran your entire life, and how apostates, gays, women adulterers,non believers and anyone who tolerate those things have to die. That's islam. [/QUOTE] bruh have you even met a muslim i can agree that islam has its problems but man that's just eating into fearmongering they literally just teach the kids how to pray and shit and the five pillars of islam which consist of: "Shahadah: sincerely reciting the Muslim profession of faith. Salat: performing ritual prayers in the proper way five times each day. Zakat: paying an alms (or charity) tax to benefit the poor and the needy. Sawm: fasting during the month of Ramadan. Hajj: pilgrimage to Mecca" like, this is literally the entirety of what the average muslim does. no one gets taught that infidels should die or w/e. if someone has a job, a family, maybe kids, and just a normal life in general and a good mental state(yes you can follow religion and have a good mental state at the same time), there's literally no reason to run out of your house and stab and blow up some people and shout allahuackbar and call them infidels. these people are what a muslim would call idiots. duh. maybe the worst thing you have to worry about is regarding the social acceptance of homosexuals. the older muslims are still against that. and they're stricter about relationships, and there are occasional times when they push for halal food in otherwise normal eateries. i can't say the same for middle eastern shitholes but in the rest of the world this is just what they teach the kids. it's rare for someone to actually sit down and read the qur'an and read beyond what i mentioned, and those who do just memorize the prayers and shit. the reality is that criticizing the shady parts of islamic text doesn't matter to them. because no one actually reads them anyways lol

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50841148]Sorry, who's being told apostates should die every day? Every Muslim? Because I'm pretty sure it's not every Muslim. It's actually just the super-minority that have become invested in Jihadist groups thanks to propaganda you can easily find online for whatever reason. Funky interpretations of their holy text, a feeling of disenfranchisement with their current environment, the feeling they are being oppressed in their current environment, retardation, peer pressure. "You should totes go a kill white folk" isn't going to make for a good sermon at the local mosque, and doesn't provide any of the feel-good feelies that a lot of people tend to stick to a religion for in the first place. You're not going to radicalise 99.999% of the population by just saying "but the BOOK SAYS!" because most people can see that's retarded. Fringe groups this small should not dictate how we see the rest of the super-group they diverged from.[/QUOTE] Have you looked at any of the statistics posted in this thread? I find it hard to swallow that something like 30%+ of Western Muslims believe in Shariah law (and thus death to apostates) but I've yet to see any stats to the contrary. Where are you getting the idea that this is a super-minority?

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50841148]Sorry, who's being told apostates should die every day? Every Muslim? Because I'm pretty sure it's not every Muslim. It's actually just the super-minority that have become invested in Jihadist groups thanks to propaganda you can easily find online for whatever reason. Funky interpretations of their holy text, a feeling of disenfranchisement with their current environment, the feeling they are being oppressed in their current environment, retardation, peer pressure. "You should totes go a kill white folk" isn't going to make for a good sermon at the local mosque, and doesn't provide any of the feel-good feelies that a lot of people tend to stick to a religion for in the first place. You're not going to radicalise 99.999% of the population by just saying "but the BOOK SAYS!" because most people can see that's retarded. Fringe groups this small should not dictate how we see the rest of the super-group they diverged from.[/QUOTE] I was more talking about fundie groups in the middle east than western, and to an extent the "slums" in europe, where you have no go zones, where a majority of the orchestrated attackers come from. Again, #notallmuslims, but these messages are there, and every statistic, study and account i've seen paints a picture where at least a third muslims support sharia or Quranic punishment for crime. There's a long history of Islam asserting itself in a culture and slowly taking over, by asserting islamic governence. Afghanistan was once a predominantly Buddhist place until Islam moved in. And that's not to say that one religion/culture/people being replaced by another is automatically a bad thing, that would be absurd. But what i see when a study says [URL="http://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/files/pdf/What-Do-Muslim-Canadians-Want-November-1-2011.pdf"]62% of muslims in canada want sharia law[/URL] to be instated, that means they are asserting a parallel system of goverment and law. A state cannot function like that, it will rattle itself apart. Now again, the ideal solution to this is integration. We all judge each other under the same book of law, and we can all practice whatever religion we want, supposing it breaks no laws, and does not negatively affect anyone else. Then we'll all get along and live productive lives that continue society's progress forward. But that's not going to happen unless we all can say "look, there's some shitty ideas in the Quran, can we all agree that these shouldn't be acted upon" and not [QUOTE=bitches;50840159] either you're actually that racist or this is a case of poe's law gone viral[/QUOTE] now i'd be happy to earnestly debate on Islam, i'd genuinely love to have that discussion with anyone on the other side. But to say [I]fundie[/I] islam is not only not a terrible thing, but is immune to criticism is an absolutely pernicious idea which i will not stand for

You know,I think everyone is misunderstanding each other here,the basic arguement is NOT that ALL Muslims would commit murder in the NAME of their religion HOWEVER their Holy Quran which is USUALLY their guide on their religion other than the HADITHS(which is usually just a commentary on Muhammad's and his companion's life outside the Quran),DOES state some awful things which will always remain there because Islam DOES NOT permit alteration of the holy Quran.The Hadiths on the other hand,also paints Muhammad and Abu Bakr in a more neutral light and sometimes detail the both of them going to extremes in order to spread the faith,sometimes through violent means. WHETHER OR NOT what both of them or any other companions did was a thing back in the day(eg Muhammad marrying Aishah),the point is that MUSLIMS are prone to thinking that their backward act must be good since MUHAMMAD and his COMPANIONS are doing it,why shouldn't he or she follow in his footsteps? The point I'm making is that the religion is to be blamed to an extent per say because the words of the Prophet will always be the same and because it isn't altered to make it more understandable in it's context,there are always going to be Muslims who go out of their way to commit violent Jihad because of their need to please Allah. I don't know about you Westerners but when I always hear from Muslims in this country calling for violence against ANYONE who criticizes them or their religion,frequently posting Quranic verses in social media which encourage it and convincing even more youth that it's okay then I actually have reason to be worried

[QUOTE=srobins;50841283]Have you looked at any of the statistics posted in this thread? I find it hard to swallow that something like 30%+ of Western Muslims believe in Shariah law [B](and thus death to apostates)[/B] but I've yet to see any stats to the contrary. Where are you getting the idea that this is a super-minority?[/QUOTE] and there is your unfounded assumption. sharia law is a very vague topic. it ranges from certain marriage ceremony guidelines and minor stuff like that (that every religion has, like Christianity and Judaism. i think everyone is fine with that) to, yes, the harsh rules for women, harsh punishments, etc. there are plenty of people who support the lighter aspects of sharia law but not the heavy handed side. your statistic does not take that into account. [URL="http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf"]and I am not making an unfounded assumption[/URL] [QUOTE]Moreover, Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=da space core;50842435]and there is your unfounded assumption. sharia law is a very vague topic. it ranges from certain marriage ceremony guidelines and minor stuff like that (that every religion has, like Christianity and Judaism. i think everyone is fine with that) to, yes, the harsh rules for women, harsh punishments, etc. there are plenty of people who support the lighter aspects of sharia law but not the heavy handed side. your statistic does not take that into account. [URL="http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf"]and I am not making an unfounded assumption[/URL][/QUOTE] That's a good point and I appreciate you being reasonable while disagreeing about this (seeing as most disagreements in these threads are really snarky and rude), but looking at the poll I think there's still a significant enough portion of Muslims who believe in the nastier parts of Shariah law to warrant concern: [t]http://i.imgur.com/BbLpv99.png[/t][t]http://i.imgur.com/kIzzFnx.png[/t][t]http://i.imgur.com/TbweSAb.png[/t][t]http://i.imgur.com/XmOBzjn.png[/t] Granted, death to apostates is probably the least favored policy in the Muslim world, but even [I]that[/I] has a pretty significant support base among Muslims. Other policies that are still considered barbaric by Western society see even greater support, such as corporal punishment for theft and stoning adulterers. Arguably the most worrying part is the number of Muslims who believe Shariah law should apply to non-Muslims as well.

[QUOTE=srobins;50842499]That's a good point and I appreciate you being reasonable while disagreeing about this (seeing as most disagreements in these threads are really snarky and rude), but looking at the poll I think there's still a significant enough portion of Muslims who believe in the nastier parts of Shariah law to warrant concern: [t]http://i.imgur.com/BbLpv99.png[/t][t]http://i.imgur.com/kIzzFnx.png[/t][t]http://i.imgur.com/TbweSAb.png[/t][t]http://i.imgur.com/XmOBzjn.png[/t] Granted, death to apostates is probably the least favored policy in the Muslim world, but even [I]that[/I] has a pretty significant support base among Muslims. Other policies that are still considered barbaric by Western society see even greater support, such as corporal punishment for theft and stoning adulterers. Arguably the most worrying part is the number of Muslims who believe Shariah law should apply to non-Muslims as well.[/QUOTE] and this leads into the second part of my argument about islam and these countries. Lets take Jordan, which ranks quite high on those graphs you posted (as well as many others) in support for stoning, punishments, etc. Currently, it is under rule of a monarchy. while there is a parliament, the king holds power, and can choose to ignore and dissolve the parliament if they so choose. recently, there was a number of economic reforms that really boosted its human development index (which seemingly contradicts my theory on how socioeconomic status of a country plays the largest role in public ideals, such as interpretation of sharia law.) However, it first is important to understand that the economic change was rather sudden, and there was not enough time for society to change (when the US outlawed slavery and later jim crow laws, it still took us decades for actual social change). there is also other factors such as the fact that in the last 15 years, they took in over 3 million refugees (in past refugee crisis), mostly from Iraq and Palestine (which have lower human development indexes) and the government themselves has a tight grip on the media, disallowing much criticism of the government, and Islam is built into the legal system of Jordan, so more people there are used to have it. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan[/url] even then, despite peoples perspectives, Jordan only had [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Jordan"]2 executions in 2015[/URL] (although to be fair this was because the EU pressured them to, in past years the number of executions was around ~50. [sp] Jordan seems to be an interesting case, i should look more into it[/sp] the other country often high on those lists is Egypt, and if you look at their [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt"]governments history[/URL], literacy rate of 73%, and low rates into higher education it is no surprise

i like how nobody is talking about the actual terrorist attack

[QUOTE=Maadz;50845048]i like how nobody is talking about the actual terrorist attack[/QUOTE] That topic was adequately covered in the first couple of posts, there is really nothing more one can say than, "That's bad, my heart goes out to the victims.", Then the critics of Islam made snarky comments, and the defenders of Islam shat themselves. That's pretty much how it goes.

[QUOTE=Maadz;50845048]i like how nobody is talking about the actual terrorist attack[/QUOTE] Not much has changed from the original report: [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/belgium-terror-police-attack-machete-female-officer-a7177231.html[/url]