My local Congressman writes a bill to forbid illegal aliens from getting drivers' licences in CA - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;37560125]The thing is, people shouldn't be illegally coming into this country no matter what the immigration laws are. Living in America is not a basic human right.[/QUOTE] So if you're in deep shit in your own country without the means to make it better, you're S.O.L. and on your own?? Because that's pretty much what you're saying.

[QUOTE=Van-man;37560395]So if you're in deep shit in your own country without the means to make it better, you're S.O.L. and on your own?? Because that's pretty much what you're saying.[/QUOTE] I don't think that's what he meant.

[QUOTE=thisispain;37560217]that wasn't my question...[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, I've been awake for 30 something hours and have got another 15 or so to go :P People shouldn't be coming into the country illegally because it's illegal under the current law. The companies paying them such low wages shouldn't have got them to work in the first place since it is illegal under current law. To fix these things you need to make reform to the law.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37560663]I'm sorry, I've been awake for 30 something hours and have got another 15 or so to go :P People shouldn't be coming into the country illegally because it's illegal under the current law. The companies paying them such low wages shouldn't have got them to work in the first place since it is illegal under current law. To fix these things you need to make reform to the law.[/QUOTE] why is their immigration illegal / why should it be

[QUOTE=Van-man;37560395]So if you're in deep shit in your own country without the means to make it better, you're S.O.L. and on your own?? Because that's pretty much what you're saying.[/QUOTE] I never said that, either. Do you mean political trouble? Broken a law and on the run? Country is in turmoil? It really depends on the particular case.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;37560703]why is their immigration illegal / why should it be[/QUOTE] Their immigration is illegal because they didn't go through the proper methods to come into the country legally. I never said it should be that way, but that's how it is now. That's why the immigration laws need to be changed.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37560715]Their immigration is illegal because they didn't go through the proper methods to come into the country legally. I never said it should be that way, but that's how it is now. That's why the immigration laws need to be changed.[/QUOTE] you said: immigrants shouldn't come here illegally your reason: it is illegal why is it illegal? because they didn't go through the proper methods (ie its illegal because its illegal) the entire question is [B]why is it wrong for them to immigrate illegally[/B]

[QUOTE=Kopimi;37560724]you said: immigrants shouldn't come here illegally your reason: it is illegal why is it illegal? because they didn't go through the proper methods (ie its illegal because its illegal) the entire question is [B]why is it wrong for them to immigrate illegally[/B][/QUOTE] The answer is because it's illegal under our current law. If you invite someone into your house it's one thing, but if somebody comes into your house uninvited that's another. It's the same concept here. To pass as citizens a lot of people use false social security numbers and other documents. If I were to do the same I would face jail time. If you change the laws to make it a lot easier for someone to migrate here legally than there would be no issue, but under current law they are here illegally.

yeah what i'm asking is why should illegal immigration in the instance of it coming through Mexico be illegal? they already make the effort to come here, legal or not legal, and they suffer greatly because the US government doesn't consider them legitimate. this forum rallies against gun control on the fundamental premise that it doesn't do anything to deter crime. does making immigration illegal do anything to deter crime?

[QUOTE=thisispain;37560754]yeah what i'm asking is why should illegal immigration in the instance of it coming through Mexico be illegal? they already make the effort to come here, legal or not legal, and they suffer greatly because the US government doesn't consider them legitimate. this forum rallies against gun control on the fundamental premise that it doesn't do anything to deter crime. does making immigration illegal do anything to deter crime?[/QUOTE] If you don't like it write your congressman to change the law, I've said that about a dozen times now.

hey this is a forum you're supposed to discuss

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37560767]If you don't like it write your congressman to change the law, I've said that about a dozen times now.[/QUOTE] i love that you dodge moral judgement on your military service with "its politics fault" AND use it to back up your stance on immigration. "write to your congressman" is a really wonderful catchall if you dont want to bother defending your views thanks for answering my question with the same answer i told you wasn't good enough. "the answer is because its illegal under our current law". wow! thanks! that completely doesnt answer the question. why SHOULD it be illegal under our current law. think hard [editline]6th September 2012[/editline] hint: "because its illegal" is not a valid answer

[QUOTE=Kopimi;37560781]i love that you dodge moral judgement on your military service with "its politics fault" AND use it to back up your stance on immigration. "write to your congressman" is a really wonderful catchall if you dont want to bother defending your views thanks for answering my question with the same answer i told you wasn't good enough. "the answer is because its illegal under our current law". wow! thanks! that completely doesnt answer the question. why SHOULD it be illegal under our current law. think hard [editline]6th September 2012[/editline] hint: "because its illegal" is not a valid answer[/QUOTE] I already gave you the example of letting people into your home. If a salesmen were to come to my house I'd have two options. I could let him in and view is product or I can refuse him and not let him in my home. The same concept applies for coming into the country. If someone applies wants to come into the country we have two options, let them in or keep them out. Maybe they were known criminals before they applied to come in, maybe they are in desperate need of a job. We don't know until they apply. Now say that salesmen earlier decided to break into my home and walk into my room while I was asleep only to wake me up and try and sell me his product. I'd be pretty damn pissed off, and since I didn't know who it was breaking into my home in the first place I could easily mistake him for a robber. Same concept here, people are coming into the country without us knowing who they are or what they're there for. Sure a majority may be looking for work, but we don't know all that for sure. It's like when 9/11 happened. The terrorists were able to get on the aircraft no problem, and they were able to do so because nothing like that had ever happened before. Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean something can't happen in the future. I'm not trying to compare immigrants to terrorists here, I'm just saying that having people come into the country as they please is like leaving your front door wide open 24/7. And I tell you Americas in the bad side of town right now.

you didn't really read my post. your argument pretends as if it's a binary choice of let illegal immigrants in or don't let illegal immigrants in. it's not, illegal immigrants get in even though it's illegal. what use is having it be illegal?

[QUOTE=thisispain;37560817]you didn't really read my post. your argument pretends as if it's a binary choice of let illegal immigrants in or don't let illegal immigrants in. it's not, illegal immigrants get in even though it's illegal. what use is having it be illegal?[/QUOTE] People break into homes even though it's illegal, so what's the point of it being illegal then?

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37560827]People break into homes even though it's illegal, so what's the point of it being illegal then?[/QUOTE] because breaking into someone's home is at a great disadvantage to a person illegal immigrants come into the US and boost the economy by working for very little, paying taxes, while practically taking no advantage of any of the services provided by the state it's not the same thing, your metaphor is an over-simplification that doesn't apply to any real situation

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37560827]People break into homes even though it's illegal, so what's the point of it being illegal then?[/QUOTE] yo are you seriously comparing breaking into someone house and presumably damaging or stealing their property while putting those inside the home at risk of bodily harm, to mexicans saying "wow this place is a death trap, we need to go to america" and coming to work the jobs nobody else does so they can stimulate the economy while being treated like utter shit by the people whose houses they built?

[QUOTE=thisispain;37560843]because breaking into someone's home is at a great disadvantage to a person illegal immigrants come into the US and boost the economy by working for very little, paying taxes, while practically taking no advantage of any of the services provided by the state it's not the same thing, your metaphor is an over-simplification that doesn't apply to any real situation[/QUOTE] That's true, but at the same tolken you do not know who everybody is coming through so you have no idea what they're really here for. It's the principle of the matter, in that since we don't know who they are we don't know what they intend on doing until they do it. Back to the house metaphore. Say you live in a small rural town, everybody knows everybody. You keep your door unlocked, and the little kid from down the block occasionally walks in and gets himself a glass of milk (whether you're home or not). Now say you live in a bad neighborhood in some big city. You know everybody on your block, but you keep your doors locked because you don't know who might be coming through the neighborhood. The first example is the mindset of America prior to 9/11, the second being post. (from a security standpoint, not immigration) While 99.99% of illegal immigrants are coming into the country for work and a better life, there's always the chance that .01% of those coming in could be trying to blow something up. As trivial and unlikely as it sounds the possibility of it is still out there. America is in "the bad neighborhood" right now with a lot of people. While I disagree in that its the sole reason for the things being the way they are that is the American governments mindset, and in some aspects that's true. Back to the salesman breaking into my home, yes his intentions were good. He wanted to sell me something so he could make some money for whatever. Hell I'll even say he went as far as cleaning up the broken glass and leaving money to fix it. But at the same time he came in uninvited. Had he simply waited until morning to sell me his goods I would have gladly entertained him, but instead he chose to brake in leaving who and what his intentions were a mystery until he was in my room trying to sell me shit. [editline]6th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Kopimi;37560893]yo are you seriously comparing breaking into someone house and presumably damaging or stealing their property while putting those inside the home at risk of bodily harm, to mexicans saying "wow this place is a death trap, we need to go to america" and coming to work the jobs nobody else does so they can stimulate the economy while being treated like utter shit by the people whose houses they built?[/QUOTE] The stupidity of that comment makes me want to hit my dick with a hammer. It's a metaphor referring to letting people into the country uninhibited. But If you want to believe I think all Mexicans coming into the country are robbers and terrorists go right ahead, I could give two fucks. I've already stated I don't agree with the way current immigration laws are. I'm simply explaining why the American government believes they need to be the way they are.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37560907]That's true, but at the same tolken you do not know who everybody is coming through so you have no idea what they're really here for. It's the principle of the matter, in that since we don't know who they are we don't know what they intend on doing until they do it. Back to the house metaphore. Say you live in a small rural town, everybody knows everybody. You keep your door unlocked, and the little kid from down the block occasionally walks in and gets himself a glass of milk (whether you're home or not). Now say you live in a bad neighborhood in some big city. You know everybody on your block, but you keep your doors locked because you don't know who might be coming through the neighborhood. The first example is the mindset of America prior to 9/11, the second being post. (from a security standpoint, not immigration) While 99.99% of illegal immigrants are coming into the country for work and a better life, there's always the chance that .01% of those coming in could be trying to blow something up. As trivial and unlikely as it sounds the possibility of it is still out there. America is in "the bad neighborhood" right now with a lot of people. While I disagree in that its the sole reason for the things being the way they are that is the American governments mindset, and in some aspects that's true. Back to the salesman breaking into my home, yes his intentions were good. He wanted to sell me something so he could make some money for whatever. Hell I'll even say he went as far as cleaning up the broken glass and leaving money to fix it. But at the same time he came in uninvited. Had he simply waited until morning to sell me his goods I would have gladly entertained him, but instead he chose to brake in leaving who and what his intentions were a mystery until he was in my room trying to sell me shit.[/QUOTE] So people who want to escape living in horrible conditions just gotta suck it up and deal with it? Because that's their only other alternative since the US has a really strict immigration control. You shouldn't hate the illegal immigrants and defend the fact they're illegal. You should hate your government for not understanding the problem [B]WHY[/B] they're illegal immigrants, and instead should take proper measures and actions so they either don't have to immigrate to the US in the first place, or make the process as painless and simple as possible for those who doesn't have ill intentions.

[QUOTE=Van-man;37560960]So people who want to escape living in horrible conditions just gotta suck it up and deal with it? Because that's their only other alternative since the US has a really strict immigration control. You shouldn't hate the illegal immigrants and defend the fact they're illegal. You should hate your government for not understanding the problem [B]WHY[/B] they're illegal immigrants, and instead should take proper measures and actions so they either don't have to immigrate to the US in the first place, or make the process as painless and simple as possible for those who doesn't have ill intentions.[/QUOTE] Dude, I said I don't agree with it. They asked me why people think the laws are they way they are now and I explained it. In my opinion they need to loosen up the immigration laws and let those already in the country get green cards/citizenship/whatever. Granted there needs to be a proper method of doing such.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37560907]That's true, but at the same tolken you do not know who everybody is coming through so you have no idea what they're really here for. It's the principle of the matter, in that since we don't know who they are we don't know what they intend on doing until they do it. Back to the house metaphore. Say you live in a small rural town, everybody knows everybody. You keep your door unlocked, and the little kid from down the block occasionally walks in and gets himself a glass of milk (whether you're home or not). Now say you live in a bad neighborhood in some big city. You know everybody on your block, but you keep your doors locked because you don't know who might be coming through the neighborhood. The first example is the mindset of America prior to 9/11, the second being post. (from a security standpoint, not immigration) While 99.99% of illegal immigrants are coming into the country for work and a better life, there's always the chance that .01% of those coming in could be trying to blow something up. As trivial and unlikely as it sounds the possibility of it is still out there. America is in "the bad neighborhood" right now with a lot of people. While I disagree in that its the sole reason for the things being the way they are that is the American governments mindset, and in some aspects that's true. Back to the salesman breaking into my home, yes his intentions were good. He wanted to sell me something so he could make some money for whatever. Hell I'll even say he went as far as cleaning up the broken glass and leaving money to fix it. But at the same time he came in uninvited. Had he simply waited until morning to sell me his goods I would have gladly entertained him, but instead he chose to brake in leaving who and what his intentions were a mystery until he was in my room trying to sell me shit. [editline]6th September 2012[/editline] The stupidity of that comment makes me want to hit my dick with a hammer. It's a metaphor referring to letting people into the country uninhibited. But If you want to believe I think all Mexicans coming into the country are robbers and terrorists go right ahead, I could give two fucks. I've already stated I don't agree with the way current immigration laws are. I'm simply explaining why the American government believes they need to be the way they are.[/QUOTE] sorry if i hurt your feelings for typing a completely accurate summary of the shitty home invasion metaphor you used. heres a tip: if you dont want me to assume you're likening illegal immigration to home invasion, [B]dont liken illegal immigration to home invasion[/B]. just give it up with the needlessly complex metaphors of salesmen and home breakins and glasses of milk. we get it, theyre coming in somewhere they don't "belong". in the end though your metaphors boil down to the fact that illegal immigrants are "uninvited". i never "invited" you to america, i didn't get a vote on whether or not you were allowed to be born in america, so where is this idea coming from that you need to be "invited" into the country despite putting infinitely more effort into becoming american than 99% of america [editline]6th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37560970]Dude, I said I don't agree with it. They asked me why people think the laws are they way they are now and I explained it. In my opinion they need to loosen up the immigration laws and let those already in the country get green cards/citizenship/whatever. Granted there needs to be a proper method of doing such.[/QUOTE] we asked you why it should be illegal, not what the popular opinion on the matter was. sorry if we didn't phrase it specifically enough after asking you numerous times why it SHOULD BE illegal, but you had plenty of opportunity to say "oh, it shouldnt" or something similar

[QUOTE=Kopimi;37560990]sorry if i hurt your feelings for typing a completely accurate summary of the shitty home invasion metaphor you used. heres a tip: if you dont want me to assume you're likening illegal immigration to home invasion, [B]dont liken illegal immigration to home invasion[/B]. just give it up with the needlessly complex metaphors of salesmen and home breakins and glasses of milk. we get it, theyre coming in somewhere they don't "belong". in the end though your metaphors boil down to the fact that illegal immigrants are "uninvited". i never "invited" you to america, i didn't get a vote on whether or not you were allowed to be born in america, so where is this idea coming from that you need to be "invited" into the country despite putting infinitely more effort into becoming american than 99% of america [editline]6th September 2012[/editline] we asked you why it should be illegal, not what the popular opinion on the matter was. sorry if we didn't phrase it specifically enough after asking you numerous times why it SHOULD BE illegal, but you had plenty of opportunity to say "oh, it shouldnt" or something similar[/QUOTE] Americas my home, so why shouldn't I liken it to a house? When people come into this country they are guests of this country until they become citizens, just like when people come into your house until you know them well enough to trust them in your home. You were born into your house, just like you were born into America. The people you invite into your home is solely up to you. If you had to choose between letting your best friend live with you or a homeless person, you'd probably pick your best friend because you know him. The homeless person really needs a place to live, but you don't know him or what he's going to do in your home. That is the god damn concept here. It should be illegal to just waltz into the country unaffected because you don't know who the hell is coming in. Lets say we opened up all the borders, let everyone and their mother walk on through. Everyone's happy, no ones illegal anymore. Then one day some guy walks across with a bomb strapped to his chest and blows up a supermarket. Now what? What's going to happen? Who are we all going to point the finger at now? What if the drug cartels decided to move north? Now that they're unimpeded in anyway to come into the country they all decide to slip into the main population and start up somewhere in America. What are we going to do then? Who will we blame? It certainly couldn't have been the completely open borders we set up where we didn't check anyone who came through what so ever. "oh if they wanted to do that stuff they would have done it already, so many people get through illegally as is." That doesn't mean you stop trying to put up measures to stop those things from happening. That's like saying lets take safeties off guns because murderers are going to just shoot people anyway.

One would think that a country that predates on and became great only thanks to immigration (illegal and not) and was founded by immigrants would have a little more empathy for these people willing to risk their life to come to a country where they are berated, treated like second-class human beings and denied even the [I]chance[/I] to try and live a normal life (because denying driver licenses is just that, a gratuitous malice).

Having open borders has it's ups and downs. It'd be great to have completely open borders but that paired with how geographically wide our borders actually are, would cause a real issue with keeping contraband out of the USA. For instance if we had open borders farmers from mexico could easily import their produce, which if not properly inspected could accidentally bring in fruit flies, or other threats towards U.S crops. Then there's also the cartel who can really only thrive from an open border policy. With that being said I do think getting citizenship should be easier. There are a lot of desperate people out there and the least we can do is let them through the door.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37559904]It's not irrelevant in the fact that it's illegal. If I were to fake the information on my drivers licence I could potentially face jail time, and I am a citizen. If you don't like the fact that it's illegal write your congressmen to change the law so it isn't.[/quote] You're pointing out that it's falsified information, good job, you have powers of observation. I don't have a gold star for you, sorry. What's your solution then? Start checking the citizenships for EVERYONE? All to avoid false info on a drivers licence which honestly doesn't matter at all. We should start arresting people who buy certain fluids because people use them to make meth labs, that a good idea? I mean, it's using the same bizarre and stupid logic you have. [quote]Not if you serve in the military. [/QUOTE] So... That's what you're suggesting? Immigrants bypass everything and just go serve in the military? That's not a viable option to hold to everybody you lunatic. [editline]6th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37560767]If you don't like it write your congressman to change the law, I've said that about a dozen times now.[/QUOTE] UncleJimmema, special forces in the avoiding questions regiment. [editline]6th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37561066]Americas my home, so why shouldn't I liken it to a house?.[/QUOTE] Because it's not a house.

I think the driver's license as identification argument is irrelevant. Just because people accept licenses as identification does not make it official identification. Denying illegals licenses is based on the same flawed logic as a lot of 'take away benefits' proposals. That logic seems to be you can control people by withholding things. You can't. If someone needs to drive in the daily course of their life, they will. They'll dodge the cops as best they can, but they'll still drive. Now we can pretend that if these people don't have a license then they won't drive, or we can do something productive for society and make sure everyone who is driving knows what they're doing. That means everyone, citizen or not. Alternatively, we could invest in a public transportation system that works, so that basically no one [i]needs[/i] to drive. That'll never happen here though, there's too much money in this car culture and that money has and will kill any attempts to give the public another option.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;37561066]Americas my home, so why shouldn't I liken it to a house? When people come into this country they are guests of this country until they become citizens, just like when people come into your house until you know them well enough to trust them in your home. You were born into your house, just like you were born into America. The people you invite into your home is solely up to you. If you had to choose between letting your best friend live with you or a homeless person, you'd probably pick your best friend because you know him. The homeless person really needs a place to live, but you don't know him or what he's going to do in your home. That is the god damn concept here. It should be illegal to just waltz into the country unaffected because you don't know who the hell is coming in. Lets say we opened up all the borders, let everyone and their mother walk on through. Everyone's happy, no ones illegal anymore. Then one day some guy walks across with a bomb strapped to his chest and blows up a supermarket. Now what? What's going to happen? Who are we all going to point the finger at now? What if the drug cartels decided to move north? Now that they're unimpeded in anyway to come into the country they all decide to slip into the main population and start up somewhere in America. What are we going to do then? Who will we blame? It certainly couldn't have been the completely open borders we set up where we didn't check anyone who came through what so ever. "oh if they wanted to do that stuff they would have done it already, so many people get through illegally as is." That doesn't mean you stop trying to put up measures to stop those things from happening. That's like saying lets take safeties off guns because murderers are going to just shoot people anyway.[/QUOTE] america isn't a house you mog. no matter what metaphorical construct you use to represent your relationship with America, immigration doesn't do you any harm as a home invasion is. get over it and give up with the moronic home invasion comparison.

[QUOTE=The Baconator;37556766] do you honestly think they [I]want[/I] to be illegal?[/QUOTE] Well yes, otherwise they wouldn't have come in the first place. Pretty simple. [editline]6th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Kopimi;37565826]america isn't a house you mog. no matter what metaphorical construct you use to represent your relationship with America, immigration doesn't do you any harm as a home invasion is. get over it and give up with the moronic home invasion comparison.[/QUOTE] Maybe legal immigration doesn't, but illegal immigration sure does. And since it's illegal, it's just the same as invading a home. So the comparison isn't far off at all.

[QUOTE=Pat4ever;37566090]Maybe legal immigration doesn't, but illegal immigration sure does. And since it's illegal, it's just the same as invading a home. So the comparison isn't far off at all.[/QUOTE] I hope you're being sarcastic.

[QUOTE=Pat4ever;37566090]Well yes, otherwise they wouldn't have come in the first place. Pretty simple.[/QUOTE] I'm fairly certain they don't want to be illegal immigrants, they just want to be immigrants, and coming illegally was really their only option at the time.