BBC urged to be more bold in LGB representation. T found dead - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Skelmech;38856596]It just seems like if anyone should know how it feels to be isolated, forgotten about by society, and generally fucked over it would be people who belong to the same minority that we do.[/QUOTE] No offense but you don't belong into the same minority as them in a sense. Both minorities are oppressed sure, and a lot of people have tried to make them into one minority, but a lot of people have resisted it. One is a minority defined mostly by sexuality, the other is mostly a minority defined by gender self perception. Sexuality also sometimes comes into play, but it's generally secondary.

I can't help but admit the thought of transgender/transexual people confuses me and I feel like I'm having a natural response against it that I really shouldn't - they have every right to be who they are but it's like I can't completely feel that if you get my meaning. I feel like a bigot :( sorry guys and gals

[QUOTE=Dori;38859011]perpetrating misconceptions about transpeople and GSMs in general isn't supportive, it's caustic[/QUOTE] How the hell is it caustic? Nothing I said could be described as caustic [editline]17th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Boxbot219;38860832]Gender role is basically what someone considers proper behavior for a specific gender. Like how some people consider cooking and cleaning to be womanly things while a man works and brings home a paycheck, while others have a more equal view for gender roles. It can be heavily influenced by culture and upbringing. A gender identity would be whether someone considers themselves to be a man or a woman.[/QUOTE] But isn't what makes a man a man or a woman a woman beyond biological terms pretty much just gender roles?

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38865700] But isn't what makes a man a man or a woman a woman beyond biological terms pretty much just gender roles?[/QUOTE] Not at all. You didn't need culture or someone raising you as a man to consider yourself a man, If this was the case then how can a transgender woman who was raised by parents who treated her as a man exist? Or even further how can a transgender woman exist when she is punished harshly by parents for not considering herself a man?

[QUOTE=Boxbot219;38865965]Not at all. You didn't need culture or someone raising you as a man to consider yourself a man, If this was the case then how can a transgender woman who was raised by parents who treated her as a man exist? Or even further how can a transgender woman exist when she is punished harshly by parents for not considering herself a man?[/QUOTE] I always imagined it was a subconscious thing. I only consider myself a man as I am biologically, I don't feel anything I do is anything a woman couldn't do.

[QUOTE=Boxbot219;38860832]Gender role is basically what someone considers proper behavior for a specific gender. Like how some people consider cooking and cleaning to be womanly things while a man works and brings home a paycheck, while others have a more equal view for gender roles. It can be heavily influenced by culture and upbringing. A gender identity would be whether someone considers themselves to be a man or a woman.[/QUOTE] Yeah I agree, but many people seem to think gender is a one dimensional thing so it has to be entirely socially fabricated There is undeniably a natural tendency towards basic 'fundamental' gender roles, but they're mostly irrelevant and obselete in modern society and anyone who tries to use the fact that these exist to justify saying men should do this and women should do that are just denying that people are individuals and that there's a number of other factors involved in how people express themselves

[QUOTE=RobbL;38866193]Yeah I agree, but many people seem to think gender is a one dimensional thing so it has to be entirely socially fabricated There is undeniably a natural tendency towards basic 'fundamental' gender roles, but they're mostly irrelevant and obselete in modern society and anyone who tries to use the fact that these exist to justify saying men should do this and women should do that are just denying that people are individuals and that there's a number of other factors involved in how people express themselves[/QUOTE] I'm sorry but I find the idea of natural gender roles revolting, it's pretty much the biggest excuse used to justify misogyny going.

Btw male and female brains are slightly different in structure, and i'm wondering if anyone knows whether the brain of a transwoman for example has more female characteristics compared to the brain of a cis male. That would explain quite a bit tbh

[QUOTE=RobbL;38866262]Btw male and female brains are slightly different in structure, and i'm wondering if anyone knows whether the brain of a transwoman for example has more female characteristics compared to the brain of a cis male. That would explain quite a bit tbh[/QUOTE] I'm fairly sure the idea of male and female brains being different is made up.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38866245]I'm sorry but I find the idea of natural gender roles revolting, it's pretty much the biggest excuse used to justify misogyny going.[/QUOTE] That's true, but if there was absolutely no natural tendency towards them then there wouldn't be much consistency of gender roles and behaviour across the world in unrelated societies throughout history. Not to mention the social structures of our closest relatives. But yeah, just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good or it can't be overridden. Take social darwinism for example, people take 'survival of the fittest' to justify letting the weak die. And modern humans rely much less on instinct than any other species. [editline]17th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;38866306]I'm fairly sure the idea of male and female brains being different is made up.[/QUOTE] It's a pretty established idea though. Besides, our bodies are different so why wouldn't our brains be?

[QUOTE=RobbL;38866262]Btw male and female brains are slightly different in structure, and i'm wondering if anyone knows whether the brain of a transwoman for example has more female characteristics compared to the brain of a cis male. That would explain quite a bit tbh[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html"]http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html[/URL] there are a few studies on it, this is the first article i found via reddit since im on my ipod it has been found that there is at least some similarity between a transgirl's brain and a cisgirl's brain

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38866177]I always imagined it was a subconscious thing. I only consider myself a man as I am biologically, I don't feel anything I do is anything a woman couldn't do.[/QUOTE] It isn't about what you can or can't do as a man or woman. Whether you consider yourself a man or woman works the same way sexuality works. At some point in your development your mind will develop a gender identity the same way it develops a sexuality. You can have a child completely cut off from all forms of human contact the moment they are born and this will still take place.

[QUOTE=Boxbot219;38866428]It isn't about what you can or can't do as a man or woman. Whether you consider yourself a man or woman works the same way sexuality works. At some point in your development your mind will develop a gender identity the same way it develops a sexuality. You can have a child completely cut off from all forms of human contact the moment they are born and this will still take place.[/QUOTE] Has it ever been tested?

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38866451]Has it ever been tested?[/QUOTE] Well if you want a test I remember a case of a child who had his penis burned off when he was born in a cautery accident. They gave him a sex change and tried to raise him as a girl. That didn't work out very well. [url]http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1997-sex-reassignment.html[/url]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38866306]I'm fairly sure the idea of male and female brains being different is made up.[/QUOTE] Nope, there's significant differences in the levels of white and grey matter.

[QUOTE=Boxbot219;38866528]Well if you want a test I remember a case of a child who had his penis burned off when he was born in a cautery accident. They gave him a sex change and tried to raise him as a girl. That didn't work out very well. [url]http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1997-sex-reassignment.html[/url][/QUOTE] I've heard about that thing before, but are there any other examples like that, it could just be an outlier.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38868009]I've heard about that thing before, but are there any other examples like that, it could just be an outlier.[/QUOTE] There are plenty of cases of people having gender dysphoria despite being raised as if they didn't, including cases where the parents would be incredibly abusive should a child suggest being transgender. Children get sent to institutions with the purpose of curing them of being transgender, which is met with no success. There are people who send themselves to be cured but find it to be impossible.

I'm G and I love T people just as much as I love other people.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38866306]I'm fairly sure the idea of male and female brains being different is made up.[/QUOTE] Seriously, stop posting something when you've got absolutely dick-all idea of whether or not it's correct. Maybe ask "how do you know that?" to start with. The vast majority of chordata has sexual dimorphism of the nervous system. It's about as far from being 'made up' as possible, that's just a thing regardless of whether you're a rat or bird or fish or weasel or lizard or human. People, mice, we've all got sexually dimorphic nuclei and a bunch of other variations. It's not even super complicated bio, people were noticing this back when the laboratory equipment was a ruler and some tweezers. [editline]17th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Farrelm;38866397]it has been found that there is at least some similarity between a transgirl's brain and a cisgirl's brain[/QUOTE] [URL="http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs10508-011-9805-6"]Nah.[/URL] Homosexual MtFs are "female shifted" but heterosexual MtFs aren't, and that "female shift" is similar to the one seen in homosexual men. The state of being transsexual or transgendered itself hasn't been linked to a dimorphic element solidly yet. Going on the white/grey matter stuff, that's currently bullshit, most similar studies disagree heavily ("[URL="http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=342001"]brain areas sensitive to gender dimorphism like left lingual gyrus and precuneus showed strong similarities between the FtM subject and female control group with respect to control males[/URL]", "[URL="http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/11/2525.short"]the present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized[/URL]"). Your brain is more similar to the sex you start as barring other variables.

[QUOTE=zerotwelve;38849659]I'll be honest, and I know the current cool thing on Facepunch is to defend/be LGBT people, but I find transgenderism pretty fucked up [editline]16th December 2012[/editline] I'm all for the fact that people have different feelings and attractions, that's just a part of nature - but when it gets to actually modifying somebodies body I think it's crossed the line a bit[/QUOTE] Who cars what others change about their bodies, for example I think tattoos in real life look retarded and ugly (think the same way a guy with Goku hair or Yugioh hair would look...IN REAL LIFE, silly ain't it?) but guess what? I don't tell people this, because it's their body not mine.

[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;38872143]Seriously, stop posting something when you've got absolutely dick-all idea of whether or not it's correct. Maybe ask "how do you know that?" to start with. The vast majority of chordata has sexual dimorphism of the nervous system. It's about as far from being 'made up' as possible, that's just a thing regardless of whether you're a rat or bird or fish or weasel or lizard or human. People, mice, we've all got sexually dimorphic nuclei and a bunch of other variations. It's not even super complicated bio, people were noticing this back when the laboratory equipment was a ruler and some tweezers. [editline]17th December 2012[/editline] [URL="http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs10508-011-9805-6"]Nah.[/URL] Homosexual MtFs are "female shifted" but heterosexual MtFs aren't, and that "female shift" is similar to the one seen in homosexual men. The state of being transsexual or transgendered itself hasn't been linked to a dimorphic element solidly yet. Going on the white/grey matter stuff, that's currently bullshit, most similar studies disagree heavily ("[URL="http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=342001"]brain areas sensitive to gender dimorphism like left lingual gyrus and precuneus showed strong similarities between the FtM subject and female control group with respect to control males[/URL]", "[URL="http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/11/2525.short"]the present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized[/URL]"). Your brain is more similar to the sex you start as barring other variables.[/QUOTE] If the brains are related to their sex then what causes the dysphoria?

I think men should be manly men and women should be womanly women, and the world would probably be a better place. [editline]18th December 2012[/editline] or maybe not

[QUOTE=Gekkosan;38876623]I think men should be manly men and women should be womanly women, and the world would probably be a better place. [editline]18th December 2012[/editline] or maybe not[/QUOTE] The world isn't black and white.

[QUOTE=supersnail11;38847320]On that topic, why is it that EVERY gay couple on TV is flamboyantly gay? I know a few gays/lesbians, they don't act any different.[/QUOTE] On this topic (again), I really hate when some people say things like "HURR you say this person is homosexual to look like an ally but you didn't lampshade it enough CIS SCUM GO KILL YOUSELF". LGBT people are just like every other person, the only thing that's different in them is their sexual preferences and/or identity; I don't think a lesbian character in a show needs to be kissing women every possible moment to show she's a lesbian, or a fat character needs to be insecure about its appearance or obsessed with food. It's like they're ASKING to be stereotyped, and aren't stereotypes something LGBT people (and pretty much everyone) are against?

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38866306]I'm fairly sure the idea of male and female brains being different is made up.[/QUOTE] [url]http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/men-women-different-brains1.htm[/url] [url]http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/how-male-female-brains-differ[/url] [url]http://www.doctorhugo.org/brain4.html[/url] Another terrible post by Elecbullet; I'm sorry

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;38876552]If the brains are related to their sex then what causes the dysphoria?[/QUOTE] Well, we know that no amount of social fuckery has ever been demonstrated to cause or alter it, so it [I]has[/I] to be something in the brain, we're just unable to say what. It could be that we haven't identified another dimorphic element, and that one is more like whatever you feel like. It's a dumb hypothesis given it would require explaining away a lot of other shit but you can't entirely rule it out. Alternatively, transsexualism is known to be linked to certain genes if you're MtF and different ones if you're FtM with no overlap, and with no relationship to natal sex. Similarly variations in cerebral hemisphere organization in both sexes (e.g. left-handedness) correlate with all types of transsexualism. It may just be the result of subtle variations of otherwise "normal" brains.

[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;38849852]Actually there was a recent discovery in the field of genetics that sex while determined at birth is capable of being changed at any point, it just requires the right kick, and we have no idea how succesful it would be and if there would be any downsides. [url]http://sciblogs.co.nz/code-for-life/2010/01/19/deleting-a-gene-can-turn-an-ovary-into-a-testis-in-adult-mammals/[/url] [url]http://hplusmagazine.com/2010/11/28/total-gender-change-within-decade/[/url] Really we're not too far off it if we really tried.[/QUOTE] That was posted two years ago with no new news, that's kinda rough

[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;38884070] Alternatively, transsexualism is known to be linked to certain genes if you're MtF and different ones if you're FtM with no overlap, and with no relationship to natal sex. Similarly variations in cerebral hemisphere organization in both sexes (e.g. left-handedness) correlate with all types of transsexualism. It may just be the result of subtle variations of otherwise "normal" brains.[/QUOTE] I just found this on a wikipedia article which is quite interesting: [QUOTE]Research has been done on the shape of the corpus callosum in those with gender identity disorder. Researchers were able to demonstrate that the shape dimorphism of the corpus callosum at birth in biological males who self-identified as female was actually reversed, and that the same held true for biological females who self-identified as male. The publishers of this article argued that the shape of the corpus callosum defined the mental sex of individuals over their physical sex.[20] The relationship between the corpus callosum and gender remains an active subject of debate in the scientific and lay community.[/QUOTE]