Japan threatens tracer warning shots against Chinese aircraft if they continue airspace violations - Polidicks

You realize that the US would take a lot less of a fall than expected? We can move our factories to some other place with disposal labor like Indonesia, or India, China can't. The recession would be bad but China would be in far worse shape, plus the fact that they can't do anything with all of the debt they've bought.

[QUOTE=Zambies!;39291872]China can't do anything in the water, their ballistic missiles are tiny and the US has mutual defense with Japan, they should just leave this matter.[/QUOTE] [img]http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/docops/fm100-12/Image2076.gif[/img] You definitely know what you're talking about, don't you? e: If it was a joke ignore me :v:

[QUOTE=ewitwins;39292963][img]http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/docops/fm100-12/Image2076.gif[/img] You definitely know what you're talking about, don't you?[/QUOTE] I think he was just making a really shitty dick joke

[QUOTE=laserguided;39292223]But NATO has no role in Japans territory disputes. I don't see how its relevant seeing as China does not border any nato members.[/QUOTE] How do you not see the connection? Per our agreements and treaties, if Japan goes to war, [b]WE[/b] go to war. Per our agreements and treaties, if we go to war, NATO treaty nations go to war. Several of the NATO treaty nations have treaties with non-NATO treaty nations, which means they get dragged into it whether they wanted to or not. Hell, I'm decently sure Russia is one of the only countries out there that would remain neutral in the event of a conflict between China and Japan.

[QUOTE=ewitwins;39292998]How do you not see the connection? Per our agreements and treaties, if Japan goes to war, [b]WE[/b] go to war. Per our agreements and treaties, if we go to war, NATO treaty nations go to war. Several of the NATO treaty nations have treaties with non-NATO treaty nations, which means they get dragged into it whether they wanted to or not. Hell, I'm decently sure Russia is one of the only countries out there that would remain neutral in the event of a conflict between China and Japan.[/QUOTE] NATO won't just join any war - they aren't obliged to unless an attack is made on a member nation, or their troops/vessels/aircraft in the North Atlantic or Mediterranean. Quite distinctly the Pacific is not part of this.

Most wars are stupid. But if China and Japan, some of the biggest economies in the world, went into full-scale war because of some small islands, it would be the dumbest war yet seen in history.

[QUOTE=Beafman;39293132]Most wars are stupid. But if China and Japan, some of the biggest economies in the world, went into full-scale war because of some small islands, it would be the dumbest war yet seen in history.[/QUOTE] The dumbest war in history is the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Bucket]War of the Oaken Bucket.[/url]

[QUOTE=Beafman;39293132]Most wars are stupid. But if China and Japan, some of the biggest economies in the world, went into full-scale war because of some small islands, it would be the dumbest war yet seen in history.[/QUOTE] Hard to top the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emu_War"]Great Emu War[/URL], but I get the point you're making.

[QUOTE=ewitwins;39292998]How do you not see the connection? Per our agreements and treaties, if Japan goes to war, [b]WE[/b] go to war. Per our agreements and treaties, if we go to war, NATO treaty nations go to war. Several of the NATO treaty nations have treaties with non-NATO treaty nations, which means they get dragged into it whether they wanted to or not. Hell, I'm decently sure Russia is one of the only countries out there that would remain neutral in the event of a conflict between China and Japan.[/QUOTE] I'll again point to the Falkland islands war. UK went to war with Argentina, and the US and the rest of NATO didn't get involved. The same thing will happen here if the ever so slight chance that Japan goes to war with China.

Japan can't declare war anyway, it's illegal per their constitution

[QUOTE=The Chef;39294444]Japan can't declare war anyway, it's illegal per their constitution[/QUOTE] Their current Prime Minister supports [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinz%C5%8D_Abe#Defense]amending that article[/url]. AFAIK no sign that he'll actually do it though, it would probably be a big political undertaking. Besides, Japan doesn't have to declare war, they already own the islands. If China attacked the islands they would be well within their rights to defend them

[QUOTE=laserguided;39291860]Japans military would stomp any Chinese threat.[/QUOTE] you'r thinking Japan Vs China 1940's 2013 is the other way around

[QUOTE=laserguided;39291860]Japans military would stomp any Chinese threat.[/QUOTE] This would be a case of Quantity V.S. Quality, mate. And don't forget China would drag in their buddy, North Korea.

[QUOTE=laserguided;39291860]Japans military would stomp any Chinese threat.[/QUOTE] surely you mean japanese tentacles

[QUOTE=Moustacheman;39295673]This would be a case of Quantity V.S. Quality, mate. And don't forget China would drag in their buddies, Vietnam and North Korea.[/QUOTE] Vietnam is [b]NOT[/b] an ally of the Chinese. They've gone to war twice since we pulled out. [editline]20th January 2013[/editline] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War[/url]

[QUOTE=Moustacheman;39295673]This would be a case of Quantity V.S. Quality, mate. And don't forget China would drag in their buddies, Vietnam and North Korea.[/QUOTE] Vietnam fought a bloody war against China and hates them. The involvement of North Korea sparks a far wider war based on how many more nations have defense treaties with SK than Japan.

[QUOTE=_Maverick_;39291848]who, china or japan? as someone with not a great understanding of world politics wouldn't Japan be at the disadvantage here?[/QUOTE] going to war with japan would be going to war with the united states. they'll never do it

[QUOTE=ewitwins;39295820]Vietnam is [b]NOT[/b] an ally of the Chinese. They've gone to war twice since we pulled out. [editline]20th January 2013[/editline] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War[/url][/QUOTE] Thanks for the correction, mate.

[QUOTE=ewitwins;39295820]Vietnam is [b]NOT[/b] an ally of the Chinese. They've gone to war twice since we pulled out. [editline]20th January 2013[/editline] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War[/url][/QUOTE] They still of North Korea though :(

[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;39295891]going to war with japan would be going to war with the united states. they'll never do it[/QUOTE] Not now, but they may consider it if we stop being an economic asset to them.

My father works for NATO administratively and I asked him would what happen in this scenario... NATO would not get involved... period. The NATO articles state that the attack MUST BE ON a member nation, forces, homeland, bases and what have you. If the united states gets involved on its own we cannot call on NATO for support. We can ask the nations in NATO individually to get involved but could not officially call on NATO for assistance in this regard. The united states would get involved in this if it goes bad. REASON BEING - we have a standing defense treaty with Japan that requires us to assist them in military operations/defense in the Pacific rim. Regardless of it being disputed because Japan believes it's their land and they are defending it, this will require the UNITED STATES gets directly involved. I support people's opinions here however stating that CHINA would get destroyed vs. Japan is a false opinionated statement. China has 749,610,775 (per 2011) available manpower and 618,588,627 (per 2011) Fit for service. Japan has 53,608,446 (per 2011) available manpower and only 54,930,753 (per 2011) fit for service. Here is more of a breakdown.... Active military personnel (china) 2,285,000 (Japan) 239,430. Total Aircraft strength (china) 2,743 (Japan) 1,252. Total tanks strength (china) 7,950 (Japan) 920. Towed artillery strength (china) 25,000 (Japan) 480. Merchant Marine strength (china) 2,032 (Japan) 684. HERE IS THE ONE THAT REALLY MATTERS REGARDING THE WATER .... total navy ship strength (china) 972 including 1 aircraft carrier and 63 submarines. (Japan) 138 including 0 aircraft carriers and 16 submarines. CHINAS defense budget is $129,272,000,000 and JAPANS defense budget is 54,529,000,000. So my question to everyone saying Japan would stomp china is how? I know Japan in some circumstances does have more advanced technology but it isnt as far off as it was 10,20 years ago. China has caught up in a lot of ways military wise. Even if the technology was very different the Japanese defense force would be going up against odds that are numbered around 1 to 49.3 So every soldier in Japan would have to kill that many Chinese to equal the same dent to its forces. Those odds suck. One last thing I will clarify here the last time China got involved in a major conflict was the KOREAN WAR were they went up against South Korean defense, the united states and United Nations. China launched a blitzkrieg and in only 2 days pushed the entire force to the DMZ. They devastated and destroyed most of the United Nations soldiers and more than 3 quarters of the U.S. Second Division. Now much more happened and it did end in South Korean, UN and U.S victory's but people arent realizing just how creatable the threat of CHINA really is. ([url]http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/kowar/50-chin/50-chin.htm[/url]) for quick history of what happened in Korea. It would be a horrible war and WOULD drag the United States into it. I really hope it doesnt happen.

[QUOTE=tonynegs;39297037]My father works for NATO administratively and I asked him would what happen in this scenario... NATO would not get involved... period. The NATO articles state that the attack MUST BE ON a member nation, forces, homeland, bases and what have you. If the united states gets involved on its own we cannot call on NATO for support. We can ask the nations in NATO individually to get involved but could not officially call on NATO for assistance in this regard. The united states would get involved in this if it goes bad. REASON BEING - we have a standing defense treaty with Japan that requires us to assist them in military operations/defense in the Pacific rim. Regardless of it being disputed because Japan believes it's their land and they are defending it, this will require the UNITED STATES gets directly involved. I support people's opinions here however stating that CHINA would get destroyed vs. Japan is a false opinionated statement. China has 749,610,775 (per 2011) available manpower and 618,588,627 (per 2011) Fit for service. Japan has 53,608,446 (per 2011) available manpower and only 54,930,753 (per 2011) fit for service. Here is more of a breakdown.... Active military personnel (china) 2,285,000 (Japan) 239,430. Total Aircraft strength (china) 2,743 (Japan) 1,252. Total tanks strength (china) 7,950 (Japan) 920. Towed artillery strength (china) 25,000 (Japan) 480. Merchant Marine strength (china) 2,032 (Japan) 684. HERE IS THE ONE THAT REALLY MATTERS REGARDING THE WATER .... total navy ship strength (china) 972 including 1 aircraft carrier and 63 submarines. (Japan) 138 including 0 aircraft carriers and 16 submarines. CHINAS defense budget is $129,272,000,000 and JAPANS defense budget is 54,529,000,000. So my question to everyone saying Japan would stomp china is how? I know Japan in some circumstances does have more advanced technology but it isnt as far off as it was 10,20 years ago. China has caught up in a lot of ways military wise. Even if the technology was very different the Japanese defense force would be going up against odds that are numbered around 1 to 49.3 So every soldier in Japan would have to kill that many Chinese to equal the same dent to its forces. Those odds suck. One last thing I will clarify here the last time China got involved in a major conflict was the KOREAN WAR were they went up against South Korean defense, the united states and United Nations. China launched a blitzkrieg and in only 2 days pushed the entire force to the DMZ. They devastated and destroyed most of the United Nations soldiers and more than 3 quarters of the U.S. Second Division. Now much more happened and it did end in South Korean, UN and U.S victory's but people arent realizing just how creatable the threat of CHINA really is. ([url]http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/kowar/50-chin/50-chin.htm[/url]) for quick history of what happened in Korea. It would be a horrible war and WOULD drag the United States into it. I really hope it doesnt happen.[/QUOTE] I'd like to go ahead and point out quality over quantity. If the battles took place exclusively on the islands, China's soviet style human wave tactics wouldn't do all that well as long as Japan has sturdy emplacements. As for their navy, I'll again point to quality over quantity. While China has quite a few ships, only 138 are full sized major combat vessels. Japan operates about 110 full sized major combat vessels. While Japan doesn't have any aircraft carries, they do have 4 helicopter carriers.

Japan and China cannot declare war. Japan is protected by a defense treaty from the US. The US and China are nuclear armed nations that are financially mutually reliant. So both from a trade and military standpoint war can't happen.

[QUOTE=laserguided;39291860]Japans military would stomp any Chinese threat.[/QUOTE] You mean their police force? :P (Unless I am mistaken that's what their military is officially)

[QUOTE=wraithcat;39297807]You mean their police force? :P (Unless I am mistaken that's what their military is officially)[/QUOTE] defense force =/= police force That is, [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_police#National_Police_Agency[/url] is not on the same level as [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces[/url]

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39297416]I'd like to go ahead and point out quality over quantity. If the battles took place exclusively on the islands, China's soviet style human wave tactics wouldn't do all that well as long as Japan has sturdy emplacements. As for their navy, I'll again point to quality over quantity. While China has quite a few ships, only 138 are full sized major combat vessels. Japan operates about 110 full sized major combat vessels. While Japan doesn't have any aircraft carries, they do have 4 helicopter carriers.[/QUOTE] Yah I do agree with you 100% on quality over quantity... But all the stuff I am looking up on Google is saying that China is pretty close technologically (maybe a 6-9 year difference) with their defense systems.. That might be my issue though (looking it up online LOL.) I do hope you are correct though because it would still be a terrible war =X

[QUOTE=tonynegs;39298022]Yah I do agree with you 100% on quality over quantity... But all the stuff I am looking up on Google is saying that China is pretty close technologically (maybe a 6-9 year difference) with their defense systems.. That might be my issue though (looking it up online LOL.) I do hope you are correct though because it would still be a terrible war xD[/QUOTE] xD

[QUOTE=tonynegs;39298022]Yah I do agree with you 100% on quality over quantity... But all the stuff I am looking up on Google is saying that China is pretty close technologically (maybe a 6-9 year difference) with their defense systems.. That might be my issue though (looking it up online LOL.) I do hope you are correct though because it would still be a terrible war =X[/QUOTE] With the way Japan's military is set up, I would assume it would strive in a defense scenario. I doubt the two would ever go to war and I certainly hope they don't, but I'd put my money on Japan holding the islands until a cease fire is signed.

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39298159]With the way Japan's military is set up, I would assume it would strive in a defense scenario. I doubt the two would ever go to war and I certainly hope they don't, but I'd put my money on Japan holding the islands until a cease fire is signed.[/QUOTE] I'm willing to bet that the US sends a carrier battle group or two in between the two and the whole thing ends peacefully.

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;39298159]With the way Japan's military is set up, I would assume it would strive in a defense scenario. I doubt the two would ever go to war and I certainly hope they don't, but I'd put my money on Japan holding the islands until a cease fire is signed.[/QUOTE] Yah dont get me wrong.. what I wrote a few posts ago I wasn't taking the China side of the discussion and might have come across to set on china.. What I really meant was china would give a little more fight than some people give them credit. I do believe Japan would be able to hold the island as well. My only concern is where would china stop? Being communist and having that ideology that "they are supreme" to all other people, would they stop at simple defending of the island that isn't theirs? Would they do any kind of "movie stuff" like sabotaging reactors on the Japanese mainland covertly. I mean I am way outside the box here but when it comes to countries like China there isnt a line in the sand on how they will attack their enemies. That statement is completely opinionated on my part.