[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52158378]Combating right wing, genocidal authoritarian ideologies isn't the same thing as wanting to establish a right wing genocidal authoritarian ideology.
While I'll agree that American ANTIFAs take it too far and attack to many average joe conservative groups instead of actual nazis, the concept of antifascism is not wrong.[/QUOTE]
Republicans are genocidal? Lmfao
[QUOTE=srobins;52158436]Republicans are genocidal? Lmfao[/QUOTE]
Maybe you misread the last part of my post, maybe you ignored it to make a snarky reply. But I'll copy and paste it for you to see for a second time.
"While I'll agree that American ANTIFAs take it too far and attack too many average joe conservative groups instead of actual nazis, the concept of antifascism is not wrong."
Fascism is genocidal, it demands genocide to accquire its own legitimacy.
[QUOTE=srobins;52158436]Republicans are genocidal? Lmfao[/QUOTE]
If you read literally the sentence underneath what you're replying to you'd have an answer for that.
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52158429][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust[/URL]
Us soldiers were fascists for trying to stop fascism now? I still don't see how you become a fascist by being against fascism. Your horseshoe theory nonsense doesn't apply to the real world y'know.[/QUOTE]
No, they were fighting a geopolitical enemy, not specifically targeting everyone who supported the Nazi party, or even the Nazi party itself. The inherent ideas of Fascism are the use of force and the suppression of dissent to form a strong body. On a national level this means making the nation strong.
Also, the Nazi's engaged in genocide, but that didn't make them Fascists. What made them fascists was their consolidation of power in to themselves and their suppression of any opposition internal and external. Antifa is exactly the same, they use violence and the threat of violence to embolden themselves and suppress others, and they actively seek to suppress any one with views that don't fall in line with theirs. That inherently makes them fascists.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52158456]No, they were fighting a geopolitical enemy, not specifically targeting everyone who supported the Nazi party, or even the Nazi party itself. The inherent ideas of Fascism are the use of force and the suppression of dissent to form a strong body. On a national level this means making the nation strong.
Also, the Nazi's engaged in genocide, but that didn't make them Fascists. What made them fascists was their consolidation of power in to themselves and their suppression of any opposition internal and external.[/QUOTE]
fas·cism
ˈfaSHˌizəm/
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism[/url]
I'm sorry, but you changing the definitions of words does not make your argument valid.
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52158461]fas·cism
ˈfaSHˌizəm/
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism[/url]
I'm sorry, but you changing the definitions of words does not make your argument valid.[/QUOTE]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/s6akjgE.png[/t]
You want to play this game? I'm better at it.
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52158429][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust[/url]
Us soldiers were fascists for trying to stop fascism now? I still don't see how you become a fascist by being against fascism. Your horseshoe theory nonsense doesn't apply to the real world y'know.[/QUOTE]
US soldiers weren't fighting Germany because they were fascist, they were fighting Germany because they were expanding beyond their borders and invading their neighboring countries, which if left unchecked and unstopped could prove dangerous to the US. hell, Germany declared war on the US. though Germany's fascism is what lead to them invading other countries, the ideology itself was not why people went to war with them. if they had remained within their borders or only attempted aggressive expansion in parts of the world that weren't allies with the former Entente powers i could see there not being a war.
now, whether or not fascism can survive and work without aggressive expansion of its neighbors is a point that can be argued. but, we did not go to war because they were fascist, they went to war because they were fascist
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52158469][t]http://i.imgur.com/s6akjgE.png[/t]
You want to play this game? I'm better at it.[/QUOTE]
Disambiguation on that page literally just leads to other versions of the same right wing authoritarian ideology.
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52158484]Disambiguation on that page literally just leads to other versions of the same right wing authoritarian ideology.[/QUOTE]What does that have to do with what I said?
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52158469][t]http://i.imgur.com/s6akjgE.png[/t]
You want to play this game? I'm better at it.[/QUOTE]
What are you trying to say? Like, you're objectively wrong and snipping to the first line of a wikipedia article to support your idea that Antifa (or the 'radical left') = fascism are the same is not true and ignorant of both far left and fascist ideology.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52158486]What does that have to do with what I said?[/QUOTE]
Your post made no sense. You snipped the sentence of the definition and..It still says authoritarian nationalist ideology? So i assumed you meant disambiguations..Which..Still leads to the same authoritarian right wing ideologies...
What are you attempting to convey?
[QUOTE=Crumpet;52158487]What are you trying to say? Like, you're objectively wrong and snipping to the first line of a wikipedia article to support your idea that Antifa (or the 'radical left') = fascism are the same is objectively wrong and ignorant of both far left and fascist ideology.[/QUOTE]No, because we're arguing about what a fascist even is to begin with (which they argued inherently tied fascism to genocide which is entirely incorrect) but also if Antifa is fascist. In contrast to genocide, the methodology of Antifa is inherent to fascism. They use force and violence as a means to suppress opposing views. That is by its nature fascist.
[editline]27th April 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=ImUnstoppable;52158492]Your post made no sense. You snipped the sentence of the definition and..It still says authoritarian nationalist ideology? So i assumed you meant disambiguations..Which..Still leads to the same authoritarian right wing ideologies...
What are you attempting to convey?[/QUOTE]Yes, because the important part is in that sentence, about forcible suppression of dissent. That's key.
i don't think antifa are fascist or becoming fascist, however i do think they are adopting tactics and targets which are dangerous in the precedent that they set and somewhat reminiscent of the tactics fascists use.
to me, horseshoe theory is less about the politics you're espousing and more about the tactics and rhetorical styles that you use to accomplish your political goals. as each side gets more extreme the tactics used begin to converge
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52158512]i don't think antifa are fascist or becoming fascist, however i do think they are adopting tactics and targets which are dangerous in the precedent that they set and somewhat reminiscent of the tactics fascists use.
to me, horseshoe theory is less about the politics you're espousing and more about the tactics and rhetorical styles that you use to accomplish your political goals. as each side gets more extreme the tactics used begin to converge[/QUOTE]That is the crux of it, yes. They're arguing one thing, but their methodology is entirely the issue.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52158494]No, because we're arguing about what a fascist even is to begin with (which they argued inherently tied fascism to genocide which is entirely incorrect) but also if Antifa is fascist. In contrast to genocide, the methodology of Antifa is inherent to fascism. They use force and violence as a means to suppress opposing views. That is by its nature fascist.
[editline]27th April 2017[/editline]
Yes, because the important part is in that sentence, about forcible suppression of dissent. That's key.[/QUOTE]
And you seem to be boiling down to the horsehoe theory which is horseshit. Proven over and over. That two ideologies share similarities doesn't mean much of anything and can be applied to literally any two similarities contained within politics.
[QUOTE=Crumpet;52158518]And you seem to be boiling down to the horsehoe theory which is horseshit. Proven over and over. That two ideologies share similarities doesn't mean much of anything and can be applied to literally any two similarities contained within politics.[/QUOTE]
usually if you did that to other two ideologies the similarity wouldn't be "uses violence to suppress other competing political ideologies and stop people from speaking". using violence as a suppression tool, historically, has gotten out of hand and lead to some bad shit almost every time it was employed.
[QUOTE=Crumpet;52158518]And you seem to be boiling down to the horsehoe theory which is horseshit. Proven over and over. That two ideologies share similarities doesn't mean much of anything and can be applied to literally any two similarities contained within politics.[/QUOTE]
Personally I prefer my ideology. It not enough to end the right. I say its time to end humanity in its entirety. Only then will the world be ready for utopia.
I mean if we're all dead, then them icky fascists won't be coming to power for a long time.
Prevention is the best measure I say.
When I say fascists what I really mean is any one who smells funny, looks odd, disagrees with me or breathes.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52158494]No, because we're arguing about what a fascist even is to begin with (which they argued inherently tied fascism to genocide which is entirely incorrect) but also if Antifa is fascist. In contrast to genocide, the methodology of Antifa is inherent to fascism. They use force and violence as a means to suppress opposing views. That is by its nature fascist.[/QUOTE]
Using force and supressing opposing views doesn't automatically mean something's fascist. What kind of logic is that? So even though facism is defined as a right-wing authoritarian nationalist ideology, which antifa is neither right-wing or nationalist. And antifa is leftist and most likely internationalist. The end goals also couldn't be further apart, unless you think antifa as "fascists" also want a state similar to Mussolini's Italy.
i do think it is kind of funny antifa adopted black and red as their colors, which are colors i would also associate with the nazis
[QUOTE=RB33;52158549]Using force and supressing opposing views doesn't automatically mean something's fascist. What kind of logic is that? So even though facism is defined as a right-wing authoritarian nationalist ideology, which antifa is neither right-wing or nationalist. And antifa is leftist and most likely internationalist. The end goals couldn't be further apart, unless you think antifa as "fascists" also want a state similar to Mussolini's Italy.[/QUOTE]
I see it from a behaviorist point of view. I don't give a flip what your ideal is. If ya acting the fool, ya acting the fool.
[QUOTE]horsehoe theory which is horseshit.[/QUOTE]
What I am saying crazy is crazy. Violent Right wing nut job, Violent left wing nut job. What the difference?
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52158553]i do think it is kind of funny antifa adopted black and red as their colors, which are colors i would also associate with the nazis[/QUOTE]
Black and red has been colours of anarchists and socialists long before the nazis came about. Red from as early as the French revolution, i believe and black from the 1870s.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52158553]i do think it is kind of funny antifa adopted black and red as their colors, which are colors i would also associate with the nazis[/QUOTE]
[t]​https://www.no-gods-no-masters.com/images_designs/cnt-fai-mujeres-libres-d0010697177.png[/t]
It actually comes from civil war Spain as far as the flag, maybe earlier for the colours.. In fact, revolutionary Catalonia would be a great case study for anyone touting the antifa = fascist nonsense.
[QUOTE=RB33;52158562]Black and red has been colours of anarachists and socialists long before the nazis came about. Red from as early as the French revolution, i believe and black from the 1870s.[/QUOTE]
yeah, i know. i just think it is a bit funny to me that their color schemes are similar.
[QUOTE=RB33;52158549]Using force and supressing opposing views doesn't automatically mean something's fascist. What kind of logic is that? So even though facism is defined as a right-wing authoritarian nationalist ideology, which antifa is neither right-wing or nationalist. And antifa is leftist and most likely internationalist. The end goals also couldn't be further apart, unless you think antifa as "fascists" also want a state similar to Mussolini's Italy.[/QUOTE]Its about practice. What they espouse as ideals are overshadowed by their actions. Age old adage of "Actions speak louder than words." It doesn't matter what you call yourself or what you say you believe, how you act is always more important. A pacifist who starts fights isn't a pacifist even if they call themself one, and even if you say you don't drink alcohol it doesn't matter if you spend your nights downing beers in bar.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52158606]Its about practice. What they espouse as ideals are overshadowed by their actions. Age old adage of "Actions speak louder than words." It doesn't matter what you call yourself or what you say you believe, how you act is always more important. A pacifist who starts fights isn't a pacifist even if they call themself one, and even if you say you don't drink alcohol it doesn't matter if you spend your nights downing beers in bar.[/QUOTE]
Sure, but you can't use fascist, which already have a clear definition for any group that is violent and oppresses the opposition.
[QUOTE=RB33;52158631]Sure, but you can't use fascist, which already have a clear definition for any group that is violent and oppresses the opposition.[/QUOTE]You can when the overriding factor that makes Fascism so abhorrent is that behavior. Being nationalistic isn't major problem, being right-wing isn't, its their violent suppressive means. If they were just nationalists, that'd be nothing. Being right wing is hardly a problem, its suppression they engage in.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52158648]You can when the overriding factor that makes Fascism so abhorrent is that behavior. Being nationalistic isn't major problem, being right-wing isn't, its their violent suppressive means. If they were just nationalists, that'd be nothing. Being right wing is hardly a problem, its suppression they engage in.[/QUOTE]
Sure, they both share violence, but they still don't share nationalism and right-wing values. So it's inaccurate to call antifa fascists. If you're assigning an ideology to a group, that implies they actually have what that ideology stands for in common.
[QUOTE=srobins;52158034]I wonder if in 25 years we'll find out that all this Antifa frenzy is just a CIA counter-intelligence operation like when they would infiltrate civil rights organizations and make them rabid. I kind of doubt it though, because I know plenty of people IRL who genuinely support and believe in all this nonsense. It's disappointing.[/QUOTE]
Actually, the history of Antifa is quite interesting.
One of the crucial points for them happened in 1967 when a West German police officer shot a unarmed protester, making the left-wing movement at the time to escalate their violence, and really don the Antifa mentality.
Turned out that West German officer was a Stasi spy.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benno_Ohnesorg[/url]
So both candidates are hated in equal measure?
Shit wrong thread
Everyone should stop looking at Antifa as if they're a political ideology, or genuinely 'anti-fascist'. They aren't. All that they are, are people who have failed in life and want a reason to be violent and smash shit. All that they do is bring weapons when they hijack actual, peaceful protests, where they then start punching people and smash windows; ruining the protest for everyone. They don't give a shit about whatever the protest is actually about.
We have similar groups in Australia, we call them 'rent-a-mobs' because that's pretty much what they are. A joke.
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