"Antifascists" shut down Portland parade - Polidicks

Yah, I would never agree to a Communist system of government. So what would happen to me?

[QUOTE=idiot;52161383]after the revolution, how would your communist utopia deal with the millions of people who would prefer having a state?[/QUOTE] So, I'm gonna be going off Marxist theory with this explanation. Communism can not replace capitalism right after a revolution. It simply wouldn't work out well for multiple reasons including conflicting ideas. Marx essentially said that unrest between the working class and upper class would become so great that it would lead towards a social revolution of implementing socialism over time. After socialism has progressed a nation to make it sustainable and efficient, it would eventually lead to the state, class system, and currecy withering away - which is when you've achieved communism. There are other branches of communism, such as Leninism that advocate for a single (communist) party (that is democratically decided) to lead the revolution, then transfer power to the working class while progressing towards socialism. So, esentially it goes like this (Unrest and tension between classes) -> (Revolution) -> (Work towards socialism) -> (After a period of time with successful socialism, wither away the state, classes, and money) -> (Communism).

[QUOTE=nulls;52161435]So, I'm gonna be going off Marxist theory with this explanation. Communism can not replace capitalism right after a revolution. It simply wouldn't work out well for multiple reasons including conflicting ideas. Marx essentially said that unrest between the working class and upper class would become so great that it would lead towards a social revolution of implementing socialism over time. After socialism has progressed a nation to make it sustainable and efficient, it would eventually lead to the state, class system, and currecy withering away - which is when you've achieved communism. There are other branches of communism, such as Leninism that advocate for a single (communist) party (that is democratically decided) to lead the revolution, then transfer power to the working class while progressing towards socialism. So, esentially it goes like this (Unrest and tension between classes) -> (Revolution) -> (Work towards socialism) -> (After a period of time with successful socialism, wither away the state, classes, and money) -> (Communism).[/QUOTE] So what do you say about people like in antifa, that want's to Purge Millions to install Communism right off the bat?

[QUOTE=OmniConsUme;52161438]So what do you say about people like in antifa, that want's to Purge Millions to install Communism right off the bat?[/QUOTE] They have a very distorted view of communism and I hope they're just being ironic. More than likely they haven't read any Marx/Engels/Lenin/etc and just think the hammer & sickle is edgy.

[QUOTE=nulls;52161447]They have a very distorted view of communism and I hope they're just being ironic. More than likely they haven't read any Marx/Engels/Lenin/etc and just think the hammer & sickle is edgy.[/QUOTE] Don't you think it is odd throughout history that communists have repeatedly come down to this same conclusion of mass killing dissidents?

[QUOTE=nulls;52161447]They have a very distorted view of communism and I hope they're just being ironic. More than likely they haven't read any Marx/Engels/Lenin/etc and just think the hammer & sickle is edgy.[/QUOTE] I too hope so, but If it isn't they will be branded Terrorists, before they kill 1/16ths of the population.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52161477]Don't you think it is odd throughout history that communists have repeatedly come down to this same conclusion of mass killing dissidents?[/QUOTE] Yes, but I believe it's mostly a matter or post-revolution paranoia combined with people believing that concentrating power to the state is the 'best way to secure the revolution' that leads to these mass killings. Stalin is probably the best example of this.

[QUOTE=nulls;52161510]Yes, but I believe it's mostly a matter or post-revolution paranoia combined with people believing that concentrating power to the state is the 'best way to secure the revolution' that leads to these mass killings. Stalin is probably the best example of this.[/QUOTE] And do you think the human nature to do this will not always be a factor? It is pretty obvious that a select few will always be selfish and try to take over power and institute their system of communism.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;52161517]Overcoming our "human nature" is the fundamental cornerstone of our evolution.[/QUOTE] Some people thought we were doing that with the Kellogg Act and trying to make war illegal. You say that as if it is only that simple. Humans can improve the organization of themselves, but unless we live in a truly post-scarcity society, there will be selfish people and people who want to allocate power to themselves since that scarcity exists. Basically, let me know when we got replicators from Star Trek, and then maybe we can talk about organizing ourselves like some communist society.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52161513]And do you think the human nature to do this will not always be a factor? It is pretty obvious that a select few will always be selfish and try to take over power and institute their system of communism.[/QUOTE] The human nature argument is used a lot when debating communism. My belief is that "human nature" is basically molded and directly affected by your socioeconomic standing and system. The people who do try to take over obviously must be shut down, but we can't get carried away and purge anyone who disagrees with communism. The idea is to phase it in over time and get people used to it, not to execute opposers.

[QUOTE=nulls;52161528]The human nature argument is used a lot when debating communism. My beliefe is that "human nature" is basically molded and directly affected by your socioeconomic standing and system. The people who do try to take over obviously must be shut down, but we can't get carried away and purge anyone who disagrees with communism. The idea is to phase it in over time and get people used to it, not to execute opposers.[/QUOTE] So what happens if someone like me wants to open a Capitalistic-style business or organization within this communist government?

[QUOTE=nulls;52161326]Still comparing apples and oranges in terms of what the ideology behind the symbol stands for. don't go all horseshoe theory on us. Communism = empowering the working class to wither away the state National Socialism = empowering the state via racial heirarchy. USSR was little more than an authoritarian dictatorship with a communist paint job. They basically turned against communist ideals and gave all power to the state.[/QUOTE] honestly if you really want communism to be successful, the hammer and sickle and other common communist trappings used by the USSR should be dropped. they got burned, and now they're seen as bad by a lot of people. the idea behind the ideology is what is important, not what colors and symbols you use

[QUOTE=Tudd;52161534]So what happens if someone like me wants to open a Capitalistic-style business or organization within this communist government?[/QUOTE] You could try, it would fail right away, you wouldn't have a reason to open it in the first place. Or it would simply not be allowed, depending on the law, because the majority has decided that their system is not capitalism.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;52161615]The idea is for you to have no incentive to do so to begin with. Similarly as to now, you wouldn't open a Communist-style organization because it wouldn't work, and you have no incentive to do so. Your line of thinking is flawed because you try to apply communistic ideals to modern society, so your mind asks the obvious questions rooted in practicality, rather in the theory of it, which is what communism is. It's an inherently difficult concept to grasp for us, naturally, because we don't know what it's like to have an infinite amount of something, and communism relies heavily on this fundamental, core, principle. Communism is inevitable in the sense that when we [I]do [/I]fully grasp resource management and become fully self-sufficient, conventional means of economy and commerce become obsolete, because there's no point in paying for something that you have an infinite amount of, and something that has virtually no cost of upkeep. We're not nearly there yet, and won't be for an untold amount of years, decades and perhaps centuries. It is for this reason that anyone who, in this day and age, proclaims to be a communist or creates political parties rooted in this ideology, is either a fraud or an idiot. Because communist ideologies cannot function in our current society with finite resources, and finite resources are the main root of all sources of conflict today. All it leads to is drastic measures and the loss of life, battling against the natural order of things. Basically, it's trying to shoehorn a theoretic ideology into the wrong period of time, using the wrong means. It'll happen eventually without direct human involvement or any "revolutions".[/QUOTE] Great, call me flawed all you want. What will happen to people who still want to implement a capitalistic style of organization in a Communist society? Calling them flawed doesn't make them go away.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52161621]Great, call me flawed all you want. What will happen to people who still want to implement a capitalistic style of organization in a Communist society? Calling them flawed doesn't make them go away.[/QUOTE] They can do it, their bussineses will fail.

[QUOTE=eirexe;52161618]You could try, it would fail right away. Or it would simply not be allowed, depending on the law, because the majority has decided that their system is not capitalism.[/QUOTE] Ah, and there is the answer I expected. So how do you know it would fail? As far as history is concerned, Capitalistic organizations have outpaced, fulfilled demand, and grown far greater than any communist organization that tries to compete with it. We actually allow communist organizations to exist in America and there are hardly any examples of them being successful. Much less any of them actually dominating an industry. And of course you would have to make it illegal. Just come out and say it, because unlike a democratic society where many systems can exist, in a communistic government you have to have homogeneous opinion to get that efficiency you desire. [editline]28th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=eirexe;52161632]They can do it, their bussineses will fail.[/QUOTE] You have no data or evidence to prove that. Meanwhile I can point to so many communist governments that have failed, and all their respective industries that have created amazing examples like a 7 year wait for a car.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;52161615]The idea is for you to have no incentive to do so to begin with. Similarly as to now, you wouldn't open a Communist-style organization because it wouldn't work, and you have no incentive to do so. Your line of thinking is flawed because you try to apply communistic ideals to modern society, so your mind asks the obvious questions rooted in practicality, rather in the theory of it, which is what communism is. It's an inherently difficult concept to grasp for us, naturally, because we don't know what it's like to have an infinite amount of something, and communism relies heavily on this fundamental, core, principle. Communism is inevitable in the sense that when we [I]do [/I]fully grasp resource management and become fully self-sufficient, conventional means of economy and commerce become obsolete, because there's no point in paying for something that you have an infinite amount of, and something that has virtually no cost of upkeep. We're not nearly there yet, and won't be for an untold amount of years, decades and perhaps centuries. It is for this reason that anyone who, in this day and age, proclaims to be a communist or creates political parties rooted in this ideology, is either a fraud or an idiot. Because communist ideologies cannot function in our current society with finite resources, and finite resources are the main root of all sources of conflict today. All it leads to is drastic measures and the loss of life, battling against the natural order of things. Basically, it's trying to shoehorn a theoretic ideology into the wrong period of time, using the wrong means. It'll happen eventually without direct human involvement or any "revolutions".[/QUOTE] The problem is that is impossible, we may be able to synthesize resources but that would require other resources. When an Ideology requires "Techno Magic" it fails automatically, And it also fails to mention even if we somehow get communism working you are ignoring man's tendency to get corrupted.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52161642]We actually allow communist organizations to exist in America and there are hardly any examples of them being successful. Much less any of them actually dominating an industry. [/quote] As Marbalo said, you're still trying to apply communist ideology to a capitalist system.

[QUOTE=nulls;52161663]As Marbalo said, you're still trying to apply communist ideology to a capitalist system.[/QUOTE] And thinking cooperatives are communistic is incorrect. Capitalism produces as much as it can, not to cover any necessities but to sell, socialism produces as much as it's needed.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;52161662]Flawed not as a derogatory insult, but flawed in the sense that you approach the problem from the wrong angle. I should have worded that sentence differently. Again, in a communist society, you would not have an incentive to open a capitalistic organization, because there is nothing material to gain to begin with. You would not gain money or other types of goods in exchange for something else, because all types of material goods are readily available to everyone else already, presumably free of charge. You [I]could [/I]open such an organization, but nobody would care, so that sort of defeats the purpose. It is pointless to try and discuss these things because the very basic requirements of communism are things which we are not nearly close solving, let alone implementing. When the world is on the brink of full-automation, [B]when resources become close to being infinite[/B], then we can talk about the intricate how's and why's of "communism", if it will even still be called that. We'll probably come up with some other word for it because the original idea of communism has some pretty retarded ground rules, anyway.[/QUOTE] Here's the thing, I would like to live in a post scarcity society, Laws of Physics and multiple other laws basically made this impossible, we will never live post-scarcity, even if we synthesize resources it would require multiple other resources. This is why the EMDrive, and Multiple Free Energy Machines are a scam.

[QUOTE=eirexe;52161672]And thinking cooperatives are communistic is incorrect. Capitalism produces as much as it can, not to cover any necessities but to sell, socialism produces as much as it's needed.[/QUOTE] What determines need? What about want? How are the desires above basic subsistence handled? Further this requires determining need first before any production begins so as to avoid overproduction and ergo waste. But failure of any kind results is far more detrimental as you have no buffer. Producing the hard minimum to fullfil need means any failure is creating a scarcity.

[QUOTE=OmniConsUme;52161654]The problem is that is impossible, we may be able to synthesize resources but that would require other resources. When an Ideology requires "Techno Magic" it fails automatically, And it also fails to mention even if we somehow get communism working you are ignoring man's tendency to get corrupted.[/QUOTE] your perspective is limited

[QUOTE=shotgun334;52163821]your perspective is limited[/QUOTE] A real hard hitting argument there

[QUOTE=Tudd;52161621]Great, call me flawed all you want. What will happen to people who still want to implement a capitalistic style of organization in a Communist society? Calling them flawed doesn't make them go away.[/QUOTE] No, it does and he literally just explained why. A capitalist business would not work or function at all in a true Communist society. The fact that they are flawed is the exact reason they wouldn't work. In every single thread you argue about this you seem to have a serious fundamental lack of understanding of what communism is and how it 'should' work. Capitalism would be irrelevant, there would be no need for a capitalist business to 'outpace production'. It always harks back to post scarcity. Whether you believe if that is possible or not (we already have more than enough resources for everyone, but the raging inequality of free market capitalism trundles on) is a different story.

[QUOTE=Talishmar;52163869]A real hard hitting argument there[/QUOTE] it hits as hard as the fact that the sun rises every morning only if necessary, as a reminder of a basic truth yes, you can argue that it's not entirely known that the sun will rise every morning, and I agree, it's not guaranteed, but-- within reason-- one can assume that the sun's going to rise tomorrow, just like-- within reason-- I can assume that everyone who uses this site has a limited, human perspective, which isn't going to be able to understand a world of such fundamental difference in structure

[QUOTE=Crumpet;52164061]No, it does and he literally just explained why. A capitalist business would not work or function at all in a true Communist society. The fact that they are flawed is the exact reason they wouldn't work. In every single thread you argue about this you seem to have a serious fundamental lack of understanding of what communism is and how it 'should' work. Capitalism would be irrelevant, there would be no need for a capitalist business to 'outpace production'. It always harks back to post scarcity. Whether you believe if that is possible or not (we already have more than enough resources for everyone, but the raging inequality of free market capitalism trundles on) is a different story.[/QUOTE]Your argument is literally, "It won't work because communism says it won't work." There's not actual substance to that, no connection or reinforcement on that. There no explicit other reason other than, "Well, we said it so it must be true." The closest you come to in this post is mentioning production and being post scarcity. But neither of those are arguments against Tudd's position, they're at best just assumptions.

[QUOTE=Crooky14;52161201]Um, their ideologies?[/QUOTE] This is saying that a red balloon and a yellow balloon are different intrinsically due to colors. Incorrect. Both are still balloons despite color. The color is an expressive difference. Not an intrinsic one. A schizophrenic in india believe they are the reincarnation of shiva. A schizophrenic in texa believe himself to be the second coming of christ. The ideology only expresses the metal illness in different ways, by what being expressed is still a mental illness. Intrinsically both people are the same. So once again, what the difference between a left wing psychopath and a right wing psychopath?

[QUOTE=nulls;52157494]antifa != communist.[/QUOTE] [t]https://assets.vice.com/content-images/contentimage/173202/7.jpg[/t] [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Anarchist_flag.svg[/t] The basis of the anti-fa flag is the anarchist communist flag. And the original anti-fa in germany grew out of the extremist german left groups like the RAF. They're communists. [QUOTE=Crumpet;52164061]Capitalism would be irrelevant, there would be no need for a capitalist business to 'outpace production'.[/QUOTE] Then why has a thriving black market always manifested in every single communist society that's ever surfaced? It's almost like a value based economy is just a default human behavior, and trying to do away with it is a rejection of the basic nature of man [QUOTE=RB33;52166002]So because the basis for their flag is from the anarcho-communist flag, they're all communists? Sure, some of them might be, you can't know all of their political beliefs because of the group's flag. Not everyone are part of a group because of an adherance to a certain ideology.[/QUOTE] It's a group who's sole defining characteristics are political beliefs. And the political symbol they chose to represent the group is the anarcho-communist symbol. That's literally like saying "sure the skinhead rioters all have nazi symbols and iconography about them, but you can't know all of their political beliefs because of the group's iconogrophy. Not everyone are part of a group because of an adherance to a certain ideology". It's an absurd idea and you know it. Does that mean literally 100% of the group in it's totality is consisted of hardcore communists? Not literally, no. But given their public behaviour, the evidence i've seen of internal behaviour and the core principals of the group itself, it is safe to say an overwhelming majority of them are communists. And certainly enough to be a defining characteristic of the group.

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52165950][t]https://assets.vice.com/content-images/contentimage/173202/7.jpg[/t] [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Anarchist_flag.svg[/t] The basis of the anti-fa flag is the anarchist communist flag. And the original anti-fa in germany grew out of the extremist german left groups like the RAF. They're communists.[/QUOTE] So because the basis for their flag is from the anarcho-communist flag, they're all communists? Sure, some of them might be, you can't know all of their political beliefs because of the group's flag. Not everyone are part of a group because of an adherance to a certain ideology.

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52165950][t]https://assets.vice.com/content-images/contentimage/173202/7.jpg[/t] [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Anarchist_flag.svg[/t] The basis of the anti-fa flag is the anarchist communist flag. And the original anti-fa in germany grew out of the extremist german left groups like the RAF. They're communists.[/QUOTE] that is not the antifa flag. the antifa flag has either an all black or all red background. these are a group on ancoms who happen to support antifa. the antifa is not a communist organization, nor do they claim to be. EDIT: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/8eiw3KP.jpg[/IMG]