[QUOTE=nulls;52166034]that is not the antifa flag. the antifa flag has either an all black or all red background. these are a group on ancoms who happen to support antifa. the antifa is not a communist organization, nor do they claim to be.
[/QUOTE]
Some are red, some are black, some are the ancom flags.
[t]https://puu.sh/vAo7j/7812c5a560.png[/t]
Seemed to me it was just a common set of iconogrophy that was used interchangeably.
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52165950]Then why has a thriving black market always manifested in every single communist society that's ever surfaced? [/QUOTE]
Because not a single "communist" society that has arisen yet has actually been able to meet demand without creating some form of scarcity via value? Until we do reach the point of post-scarcity this is going to happen in any society that is too large to actually produce within its means and no less.
That and so many of the "attempts" at communism so far have been run by dictators and other forms of fascist, opting to funnel resources in their direction rather than spreading them as the population actually requires.
Does anyone else ever find it odd that threads reporting Antifa's most recent violence are only posted by right wing posters such as Nesto and Tudd?
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("You were banned for this already twice" - Kiwi))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;52167694]Does anyone else ever find it odd that threads reporting Antifa's most recent violence are only posted by right wing posters such as Nesto and Tudd?[/QUOTE]
It's not particularly odd. I don't know so much about Nesto but in Tudd's case he very clearly has a narrative he wants to paint so the threads he posts reflects that.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52165207]Your argument is literally, "It won't work because communism says it won't work." There's not actual substance to that, no connection or reinforcement on that. There no explicit other reason other than, "Well, we said it so it must be true." The closest you come to in this post is mentioning production and being post scarcity. But neither of those are arguments against Tudd's position, they're at best just assumptions.[/QUOTE]
I'd explain again but Marbalo already did a much better job than I could in post 141 and post 146.
And what do you mean they aren't arguments? They are the basis of an as of yet untested theory so all your arguments lumping capitalism based thinking into the mix are irrelevant, as is even arguing about this in the first place.
[QUOTE=Guriosity;52165789]This is saying that a red balloon and a yellow balloon are different intrinsically due to colors. Incorrect. Both are still balloons despite color.
The color is an expressive difference. Not an intrinsic one.
A schizophrenic in india believe they are the reincarnation of shiva. A schizophrenic in texa believe himself to be the second coming of christ.
The ideology only expresses the metal illness in different ways, by what being expressed is still a mental illness. Intrinsically both people are the same.
So once again, what the difference between a left wing psychopath and a right wing psychopath?[/QUOTE]
Are you really trying to reduce the vast idiosyncratic differences between sociopolitical ideologies to the differences between colors on a balloon? This might be one of the worst analogies I've seen on Facepunch in months. There is no way you can, in good faith, argue that the differences between Fascists and Anti-Fascists aren't intrinsic to their ideologies. Hell, this argument is even more incoherent on the basis that what you [I]should[/I] be arguing is that their modes of expression are the same (i.e., both are violent, authoritarian and suppressive).
[QUOTE=Crumpet;52168100]I'd explain again but Marbalo already did a much better job than I could in post 141 and post 146.
And what do you mean they aren't arguments? They are the basis of an as of yet untested theory so all your arguments lumping capitalism based thinking into the mix are irrelevant, as is even arguing about this in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Marbalo explains in 141 that Tudd would have no reason to, which isn't a strong argument against why he wouldn't. It doesn't actually provide a reason other than, "Well because." Nothing else is said in those other than that things would be so radically different we can't explain it and therefore shouldn't talk about it. Which isn't an argument on the matter either. You're not making a damn case, you're trying to avoid one.
[QUOTE=Guriosity;52165789]This is saying that a red balloon and a yellow balloon are different intrinsically due to colors. Incorrect. Both are still balloons despite color.
The color is an expressive difference. Not an intrinsic one.
A schizophrenic in india believe they are the reincarnation of shiva. A schizophrenic in texa believe himself to be the second coming of christ.
The ideology only expresses the metal illness in different ways, by what being expressed is still a mental illness. Intrinsically both people are the same.
So once again, what the difference between a left wing psychopath and a right wing psychopath?[/QUOTE]
Good grief, here on display is the ideological basis for horseshoe theory: bullshit. Shit like this is why you have activists cursing the good name of liberals.
Making fun of adults LARPing as violent political militants is fine and should be encouraged but this thought process of equating the discourse on race counciousness to the discourse on class counciousness is an open window for literal nazis. You're already one step into retardation if you insist that racist free speech should be tolerated, but making the claim as a self-described liberal or centrist, let alone denouncing people who bash nazis, is setting foot into cognitive dissonance.
Digression aside I don't think the proposed GOP parade would warrant an antifa intervention. There's a fine line between being "in charge on the streets" and fucking with a family-friendly tradition.
[QUOTE=Guriosity;52165789]This is saying that a red balloon and a yellow balloon are different intrinsically due to colors. Incorrect. Both are still balloons despite color.
The color is an expressive difference. Not an intrinsic one.
A schizophrenic in india believe they are the reincarnation of shiva. A schizophrenic in texa believe himself to be the second coming of christ.
The ideology only expresses the metal illness in different ways, by what being expressed is still a mental illness. Intrinsically both people are the same.
So once again, what the difference between a left wing psychopath and a right wing psychopath?[/QUOTE]
You just said it. What they believe in, they are fighting for different things. Their methods may be the same, but its important to understand the beliefs and where they stem from. Your analogies really don't help your argument at all
[QUOTE=hexpunK;52166246]Because not a single "communist" society that has arisen yet has actually been able to meet demand without creating some form of scarcity via value? Until we do reach the point of post-scarcity this is going to happen in any society that is too large to actually produce within its means and no less.[/QUOTE]
It's almost like communism doesn't represent reality or human nature in any way. I guess that's why hundreds of millions of people die, and billions other suffer indescribably in service of it.
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52168511]It's almost like communism doesn't represent reality in any way.[/QUOTE]
Our current reality, that is.
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52168511]It's almost like communism doesn't represent reality or human nature in any way. I guess that's why hundreds of millions of people die, and billions other suffer indescribably in service of it.[/QUOTE]
I'd love to get some time in on your crystal ball my dude. There's no way you can say that will always be the case, and appealing to "human nature" is fucking dumb as "human nature" has evolved alongside us and our societies.
Right now it's an impossible pipe-dream, but who's to say what the far future could hold? Assuming the planet actually survives long enough given our current rate of consumption/
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;52167694]Does anyone else ever find it odd that threads reporting Antifa's most recent violence are only posted by right wing posters such as Nesto and Tudd?[/QUOTE]
I'm with you when it's crime threads where the perpetrators have already been caught and arrested where it's something you would find on your local police blotter, but organized political intimidation going on in this country is something I would want to be notified of and I give no shits as to who it is that lets me know as long as the story itself is true.
Communism doesn't aim to reflect current reality as it's goal is to change the basis of economics and the people's role in it. Human nature is to cooperate if it benefits everyone as a group, capitalism only really benefits the individual and you need to enforce social security to make it any decent.
Let me also say, protesting nationalists (if even that in this case) is a waste of time while they are not a threat to take power, radical leftists should rather focus on community outreach and make people aware of their ideology peacefully.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;52167694]Does anyone else ever find it odd that threads reporting Antifa's most recent violence are only posted by right wing posters such as Nesto and Tudd?[/QUOTE]
I find it more odd that we have groups that fit the technical definition of terrorists gleefully demonstrating political violence in the streets, and talking about it is an anomaly being used as political backbiting points.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;52168536]Our current reality, that is.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;52168599]I'd love to get some time in on your crystal ball my dude. There's no way you can say that will always be the case, and appealing to "human nature" is fucking dumb as "human nature" has evolved alongside us and our societies.
Right now it's an impossible pipe-dream, but who's to say what the far future could hold? Assuming the planet actually survives long enough given our current rate of consumption/[/QUOTE]
Oh cool, communism will be viable once the fundamental nature of reality changes. I'll just wait for that then. Then i can mooch off the qualities of my socio-economic class and relinquish the burden of individual responsibility onto the ideologically possessed state and submit myself entirely to the group, devoid of any and all expectations of myself. Neat.
[QUOTE]and appealing to "human nature" is fucking dumb as "human nature" has evolved alongside us and our societies.[/QUOTE]
Oh boy, a social constructionist argument that would make Derrida blush. Go on then, make the case, i dare you.
For anyone supporting communism in this thread i have to ask, can you name a single communist regime thats lasted more then 5 years that led to the universal enpowerment of workers regardless of ethnicity, political alignment, or social class?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;52168715]For anyone supporting communism in this thread i have to ask, can you name a single communist regime thats lasted more then 5 years that led to the universal enpowerment of workers regardless of ethnicity, political alignment, or social class?[/QUOTE]
Yeah but it's not real communism if hundreds of millions of people died, so the utopia can still happen because i want it to
Realtalk to all the people defending communism here. Have any of you read The Gulag Archipialago, or at least A Day In the Life of Ivan Desniovich? Are you aware of the magnitude of the suffering it's caused?
160,000,000+ deaths as a direct result of state actions in the 20th century, plus god knows how much more miscellaneous suffering as a consequence of a pathological and fundamentally broken society. 1/3 people in east germany were goverment informants, spying on everything around them for the government to weed out socially undesirable elements to the stasi, who were not unknown for torturing people to death for lack of something to do. Any number of Mao's horrible fucking escapades, where anyone vaguely resembling an intellectual would be beaten and in some cases [I]literally[/I] torn apart limb from limb for being supposedly counter revolutionary by mobs of people in what passed for streets. The list of horrors is longer than any other, and these horrors have a 100% rate of manifestation. Is this really what you want? Or do you even know that this is what happens?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;52168715]For anyone supporting communism in this thread i have to ask, can you name a single communist regime thats lasted more then 5 years that led to the universal enpowerment of workers regardless of ethnicity, political alignment, or social class?[/QUOTE]
You won't find an affirmative response. Anyone who earnestly believes in the inevitability of a communist society recognizes the (current) limitations that beget it's non-existence.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;52168715]For anyone supporting communism in this thread i have to ask, can you name a single communist regime thats lasted more then 5 years that led to the universal enpowerment of workers regardless of ethnicity, political alignment, or social class?[/QUOTE]
Yes, because that something has failed previously, means that it will always fail in the future. Especially, if the earlier "attempts" were all using the same non-democratic oppressive methods. It's like saying capitalism doesn't work because you only tried protectionism and that didn't work.
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52168730]Yeah but it's not real communism if hundreds of millions of people died, so the utopia can still happen because i want it to
Realtalk to all the people defending communism here. Have any of you read The Gulag Archipialago, or at least A Day In the Life of Ivan Desniovich? Are you aware of the magnitude of the suffering it's caused?
160,000,000+ deaths as a direct result of state actions in the 20th century, plus god knows how much more miscellaneous suffering as a consequence of a pathological and fundamentally broken society. 1/3 people in east germany were goverment informants, spying on everything around them for the government to weed out socially undesirable elements to the stasi, who were not unknown for torturing people to death for lack of something to do. Any number of Mao's horrible fucking escapades, where anyone vaguely resembling an intellectual would be beaten and in some cases [I]literally[/I] torn apart limb from limb for being supposedly counter revolutionary by mobs of people in what passed for streets. The list of horrors is longer than any other, and these horrors have a 100% rate of manifestation. Is this really what you want? Or do you even know that this is what happens?[/QUOTE]
All of these are a result of state-sanctioned totalitarianism that anyone who isn't a tankie would gladly condemn. Not every self-proclaimed socialist is a Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist. Things like the concept of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and the forced deposition of capitalism aren't things I'd readily support. For me, I believe that if the contemporary concept of Communism was ever to come about in a large society, it would be organically and gradually just as Capitalism has.
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;52168867]It's okay guys "real" communism hasn't been tried in the 150+ years since Marx released his book! It will be a utopia!
It'll never work. People like me will always try to get ahead of the curve. Politicians will keep taking bribes for favors. Some of the population will try to acquire the means of production. It's like waiting for a perfect storm for communism to work.[/QUOTE]
If you'd cared to read on, much like most of the other posters who also claimed that "real" communism hasn't been tried yet, I understand that it's probably not going to happen. Because historically, and potentially in the future (more of a likely tbh) we aren't going to meet the true requirements to do it.
Until there is no reason for personal greed to override the sense of community between everybody within a state. Until every person can be equally catered for with no sudden loss in resources or overproduction of goods. It's not going to happen. It certainly isn't something that's going to happen any time soon, but none of us are actual wizards who know precisely what the future holds.
So hey, maybe, some point in the distant future there's a possibility it might just work.
It's a utopic ideal, certainly. And such a radical shift in how societies work it's quite hard to picture what it would really be like, without the whole "fascist dictator kills millions" aspect.
If antifascist= fascist, does people being against anti fascist make them anti fascist aswell???
[T]https://u.nya.is/pbgejz.png[/T]
[QUOTE=RB33;52168755]Yes, because that something has failed previously, means that it will always fail in the future. Especially, if the earlier "attempts" were all using the same non-democratic oppressive methods. It's like saying capitalism doesn't work because you only tried protectionism and that didn't work.[/QUOTE]
And why do you think that is? Why has implementing communism been met with a 100% success rate of manifesting unspeakable horrors and brutality?
[QUOTE=Crooky14;52161201]Um, their ideologies?[/QUOTE]
...I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it really doesn't matter what their ideology is when they start getting violent. Bullets, bombs, bats, these are things which have no ideology. IT doesn't matter what the person wielding them thinks, they do the same things either way.
If you got a choice between a 'stable life with your needs taken care of but you're not rich or necessarily well-off' and 'the chance to get rich but at the cost of a unstable, risky life.'
Which would you choose? Because saying Communism will fail means most people would rather risk the unstable life. If you can effortlessly get the stable life, isn't that what many people will choose?
[editline]30th April 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52168923]And why do you think that is? Why has implementing communism been met with a 100% success rate of manifesting unspeakable horrors and brutality?[/QUOTE]
Due to the centralized structure of communist parties where power struggles between greedy power-hungry people have taken place. Which once in complete power, done everything to stay in power (Stalin, North Korea). They're sociopaths with no regard for common folk, more destructive than what others would call "human nature". The centralized unopposed structure of certain communist societies is its own worst enemy.
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;52168906]Communism would be great. Too bad it's held back by humanity.[/QUOTE]
It's already been proven to work successfully at a community-level before. Marinaleda, Spain is one such example. It's a very comfortable community to live in. "Human nature"/"humanity" isn't a valid argument. It has been proven that it's possible to overcome this nonsense to such an extent where people can learn to live together and cooperate with each other under peaceful conditions.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmKXEEUhG6E[/media]
The problem is that it's hard to implement this kind of radical ideology on a national level when you're dealing with a world swamped by another ideology that diametrically opposes it. You're fighting an uphill battle from the start. While hard, it certainly would not impossible. If you can take a community of several thousand people and get them to live like this, there's no reason why you couldn't do it with others as well.
The world [i]is[/i] going to have to find a better way to distribute resources and care for people eventually though. Capitalism is failing thanks to the rampant overconsumption and waste it has encouraged, and with the way that the climate and environmental conditions are also simultaneously deteriorating globally (and will continue to deteriorate in the coming decades, thanks to us not doing nearly enough to fight these problems... because, again, the bottom line in our societies is short-term profit and not long-term sustainability), it's impossible for it to last like this forever. Something's got to give sooner or later.
[QUOTE=RB33;52168932]If you got a choice between a 'stable life with your needs taken care of but you're not rich or necessarily well-off' and 'the chance to get rich but at the cost of a unstable, risky life.'[/QUOTE]
Gimme the risk fam. I'd rather being able to earn more by putting something on the line (whether it's overworking, an investment, you name it) than being stuck with the same job and the same paycheck until Comrade Computer decides otherwise.
Also, I will never trust any autority to say "this is what the people need and that's what they're going to get". The guys on top have proven throughout human history to be utterly detached fron the working class, and it's delusional to think this would change if someone waved the magic wand of communism. What's stopping them from deciding my only needs are a mud hut, a bowl of soup every day, and a bucket to shit into?
I'll [I]gladly[/I] take the risky capitalist life and the chance to live my life however [I]I[/I] please and own what I [I]want[/I].
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;52168993]Gimme the risk fam. I'd rather being able to earn more by putting something on the line (whether it's overworking, an investment, you name it) than being stuck with the same job and the same paycheck until Comrade Computer decides otherwise.
Also, I will never trust any autority to say "this is what the people need and that's what they're going to get". The guys on top have proven throughout human history to be utterly detached fron the working class, and it's delusional to think this would change if someone waved the magic wand of communism. What's stopping them from deciding my only needs are a mud hut, a bowl of soup every day, and a bucket to shit into?
I'll [I]gladly[/I] take the risky capitalist life and the chance to live my life however [I]I[/I] please and own what I [I]want[/I].[/QUOTE]
Who said that under socialism you can't own what you want and make decisions over what you want to do?
In socialism you still can own your car, your house, your phone, etc...
If anything it's in socialism where you can truly work in what you want instead of in what the market wants.
Communism (just a branch of socialism) does not have "guys on top", it's inherently stateless.
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;52168906]Communism would be great. Too bad it's held back by humanity.[/QUOTE]
Marx did have this nasty habit of assuming that all humans were interchangeable ants who would automatically and often selflessly do [i]what must be done[/i], and everything after that is excuses for why all of the things we know people will do, won't happen in "true" communism after the workers have been liberated from their false consciousness by the revolutionary cadres (up to and including savage torture in basements and extrajudicial executions by the chekists).
Kind of like how the anarchists can't really give a coherent response to "what do you do when someone doesn't want to be an anarchist" without saying "but they won't want to not be anarchists" (eg. 'the militias will all decide to dissolve themselves when the external threat is gone...')
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;52168993]Gimme the risk fam. I'd rather being able to earn more by putting something on the line (whether it's overworking, an investment, you name it) than being stuck with the same job and the same paycheck until Comrade Computer decides otherwise.
Also, I will never trust any autority to say "this is what the people need and that's what they're going to get". The guys on top have proven throughout human history to be utterly detached fron the working class, and it's delusional to think this would change if someone waved the magic wand of communism. What's stopping them from deciding my only needs are a mud hut, a bowl of soup every day, and a bucket to shit into?
I'll [I]gladly[/I] take the risky capitalist life and the chance to live my life however [I]I[/I] please and own what I [I]want[/I].[/QUOTE]
Communism is at its core a democracy. So you get to say what direction society takes. Still, imagine no rent, no healthcare bills, no need to get insurance, your basic necessities all taken care of, all you need to do is to focus on your life without worry.
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