Israeli troops fire on Palestinian protesters along Syria, Gaza, and Lebanon borders - Polidicks

[QUOTE=PunchedInFac;29846416]So the guardian is a conspiracy website. Well you learn something new everyday[/QUOTE] That's not what I was referring to. Starpluck used conspiracy websites as sources in another thread and claimed it's a legit source. Just pointed it out.

[QUOTE=Uberman77883;29846420][url]http://my.telegraph.co.uk/riteman/riteway/16309180/palestinians-celebrate-murder-of-children/[/url] [url]http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=19762&posts=6[/url][/QUOTE] [B]Are you not reading what I am saying?[/B] [B]The first link is a blog, MyTelegraph is a blog service like blogspot, where ANYONE can submit their blog, that is not a source. The 2nd link is a FORUM. Yes the settlers were murdered, but the forum sneakily claims that candy was handed out to the murders, yet their source (Fox News) makes no mention of this. [/B]

Time for me to switch sides. Israel is a belligerent, illegal nation who has been oppressing people for at least three decades. AN example of Israeli violence: [img]http://www.anunews.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/israeliPalestinianStats.jpeg[/img] [img]http://leisureguy.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/israeli-and-palestinian-deaths.png[/img] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre[/url] [url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29009543/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/long-list-suspected-gaza-war-crimes-probed/[/url] Israelis used illegal weapons in '09 such as white phosphorus against concentrated civilian areas. Although Hamas members were killed, large scale destructive weapons were used to kill them in hospitals, schools, and mosques.

[QUOTE=captainHOE;29846530]That's not what I was referring to. Starpluck used conspiracy websites as sources in another thread and claimed it's a legit source. Just pointed it out.[/QUOTE] Your claim for it being a "conspiracy website" is because of an article the same writer wrote regarding oil as a motive for the Libyan crisis. That doesn't matter though as it's not relevant.

Last time you did it starpluck banned you, because apparently you are not allowed to do that.

[QUOTE=Uberman77883;29846582]Time for me to switch sides. Israel is a belligerent, illegal nation who has been oppressing people for at least three decades. AN example of Israeli violence: [img_thumb]http://www.anunews.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/israeliPalestinianStats.jpeg[/img_thumb] [img_thumb]http://leisureguy.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/israeli-and-palestinian-deaths.png[/img_thumb] [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre[/URL] [URL]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29009543/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/long-list-suspected-gaza-war-crimes-probed/[/URL] Israelis used illegal weapons in '09 such as white phosphorus against concentrated civilian areas. Although Hamas members were killed, large scale destructive weapons were used to kill them in hospitals, schools, and mosques.[/QUOTE]alright good. I'm proud you had the balls to concede your point after a lengthy argument. now im off to bed, bye

Night night don't let the IDF bite.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;29845836]Stop trying to be such a moralist. I'll admit that the Israeli military acted rather ham handed but they were hardly unprovoked in this case.[/QUOTE] yeah how dare someone have empathy for other human beings

[QUOTE=Uberman77883;29845227]Challenge accepted. The reason Israel is belligerent today is because of the Arab's own belligerent actions. Last century, Israel was a perfectly peaceful established country. Almost all of its inhabitants were holocaust survivors, wanting to live in peace. However, the arabs sought to end what Hitler started, and to destroy Israel. A coalition of several arab countries and a militia of several hundred thousand tried to kill all Israelis. However, Israel won. Several years later, on a Jewish high holiday, the sneaky arabs launched a surprise attack on Israel whilst everybody was fasting as is a requirement of Yom Kippur. Israel turned the fight and won. In every instance of war, the belligerency of the arabs always started it, and the Israelis finished it. Because of the siege mentality the Israelis have developed, they are now belligerent. Blame Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq, etc... for the violence of the Israelis, for they are the root of the problem. Also, in Gaza 3 years ago there was peace. However Hamas broke that peace by launching rockets with intent on killing Israeli civilians. Not only this, but before the Wall was created around Palestine, there were almost daily suicide bombings in Israel. Hamas broke that peace, and in order to fight the Israelis, they set up mortars in schools, mosques, and hospitals. There is footage of Hamas members pulling children in front of them as human shields as well.[/QUOTE] How would you react to a bunch of Holocaust survivors thinking they own the land just because some bible or some shit says they own it? I for one, think their neighbors have every right to go to war with Israel. How would you react if a country like Best Korea seized 90% of your nation and called it whateverthefuck they wanted it, and then oppressed you.

Personally I don't blame the Israeli people, I blame the government of Israel

[QUOTE=Dysgalt;29844414]Now I strongly disagree with Israel opening fire on the protesters, but it seems there is blame to carry on both sides, as it said they breached their border/damaged the fence, and well I wouldn't take that lightly if I were supervising the border, though the Israeli troops shouldn't of opened fire under any circumstance. And the article also mentions a Non-Israeli man mowing down some people in a truck showing there was substantial violence on each side.[/QUOTE] Broken fences aren't justified for massacres.

[QUOTE=certified;29852570]How would you react to a bunch of Holocaust survivors thinking they own the land just because some bible or some shit says they own it? I for one, think their neighbors have every right to go to war with Israel. How would you react if a country like Best Korea seized 90% of your nation and called it whateverthefuck they wanted it, and then oppressed you.[/QUOTE] Wow you are fucking stupid. This was before all that. Way before. As in, Israel was 1/12th the size it is today and never oppressed anyone.

come on you fuckin jews stop shooting people (this is a joke do not take me seriously)

[QUOTE=The_Putty;29852623]Personally I don't blame the Israeli people, I blame the government of Israel[/QUOTE] They have a representative government so it's like the same thing?

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;29856949]They have a representative government so it's like the same thing?[/QUOTE] Mostly, of course Bush was also representative and he didn't speak for all of the US. It just means there's plenty of people who are stupid racists just like their government and plenty who aren't. It's a stupid debate anyway seeing as this was a soldiers actions and the effectiveness of the military protocol and structure more than a political decision. I don't think the guy with the gun got permission from the PM before he started shooting.

[QUOTE=Uberman77883;29846630]Night night don't let the IDF bite.[/QUOTE] you'll be fine as long as you're peaceful

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29857331]you'll be fine as long as you're peaceful[/QUOTE] nah, IDF likes to shoot peaceful people too.

[QUOTE=amute;29857407]nah, IDF likes to shoot peaceful people too.[/QUOTE] just like how certain Palestinians like to murder innocent israelis. we can both make these statements.

Now I'm not normally pro-Israel, but it looks like shit hit the fan and it was the only thing they could do.

Yeah, hordes of people coming over the border of a hostile country, all of them pissed off, think I saw something about guns being fired too, that seems like a SHTF moment. Obviously not the best result possible but that's for them to decide what can be done to make sure shit like it doesn't happen again.

[QUOTE=Uberman77883;29845227]Challenge accepted. The reason Israel is belligerent today is because of the Arab's own belligerent actions. Last century, Israel was a perfectly peaceful established country. Almost all of its inhabitants were holocaust survivors, wanting to live in peace. However, the arabs sought to end what Hitler started, and to destroy Israel. A coalition of several arab countries and a militia of several hundred thousand tried to kill all Israelis. However, Israel won. Several years later, on a Jewish high holiday, the sneaky arabs launched a surprise attack on Israel whilst everybody was fasting as is a requirement of Yom Kippur. Israel turned the fight and won. In every instance of war, the belligerency of the arabs always started it, and the Israelis finished it. Because of the siege mentality the Israelis have developed, they are now belligerent. Blame Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq, etc... for the violence of the Israelis, for they are the root of the problem. Also, in Gaza 3 years ago there was peace. However Hamas broke that peace by launching rockets with intent on killing Israeli civilians. Not only this, but before the Wall was created around Palestine, there were almost daily suicide bombings in Israel. Hamas broke that peace, and in order to fight the Israelis, they set up mortars in schools, mosques, and hospitals. There is footage of Hamas members pulling children in front of them as human shields as well.[/QUOTE] You didn't defend them, you just explained them. There is no tone in that post that implies that Israel's reactive belligerence is ok. IMO, the injustice done to Israel is just as revolting as the injustice it now commits. EDIT: I am speaking about Isreal's actions over the past few years in regard to Palestine. This particular incident seems to have been, as Devodiere put it, a SHTF moment and I can't blame them for what happened.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;29845836]Stop trying to be such a moralist. I'll admit that the Israeli military acted rather ham handed but they were hardly unprovoked in this case.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Devodiere;29858605]Yeah, hordes of people coming over the border of a hostile country, all of them pissed off, think I saw something about guns being fired too, that seems like a SHTF moment. Obviously not the best result possible but that's for them to decide what can be done to make sure shit like it doesn't happen again.[/QUOTE] that doesn't matter. you don't gun people down simply because you were "provoked" by some property damage

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29863150]that doesn't matter, that doesn't justify gunning people down[/QUOTE] you could argue that in cases of self-preservation, such as what occurred in this case.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29863199]you could argue that in cases of self-preservation, such as what occurred in this case.[/QUOTE] you could argue that, but you shouldn't argue that because I'd verbally whale on anyone who did

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29863150]that doesn't matter, that doesn't justify gunning people down[/QUOTE] There are different levels of this stuff, the two things are completely unrelated. This act has to be looked at what affects it to see what is right and wrong. The tensions around the border, the preparedness of the security, military protocol to deal with this SHTF scenario, then what were the protesters like, how does this compare to the actions of other countries, could anyone have done better and how? Why the fuck does it matter what happened 50 years ago or even what the IDF police forces are doing down the road, this is about how the scenario played out, what they did right and what they fucked up.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29863150]that doesn't matter. you don't gun people down simply because you were "provoked" by some property damage[/QUOTE] The worst group people that got gunned down where the hundreds of people that charged across the Israeli-Syrian Border illegally. There were only about a dozen guards at that part as Israeli Intelligence thought the worst of the protesting would happen miles south of there. When you've got only your guns and hundreds of invaders illegally entering your country then you've got to somehow keep control and get them out of there.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;29863218]There are different levels of this stuff, the two things are completely unrelated. This act has to be looked at what affects it to see what is right and wrong.[/QUOTE] it affects the lives of the people they killed so yes it's wrong [QUOTE=Thom12255;29863230]The worst group people that got gunned down where the hundreds of people that charged across the Israeli-Syrian Border illegally. There were only about a dozen guards at that part as Israeli Intelligence thought the worst of the protesting would happen miles south of there. When you've got only your guns and hundreds of invaders illegally entering your country then you've got to somehow keep control and get them out of there.[/QUOTE] other civilized countries don't gun people down for crossing the border illegally. when someone in america does that they get fucking arrested if the protesters actually began to physically harm the soldiers in a way more serious than tossing a few rocks at them, then the soldiers would be justified in taking down the specific individuals who were attacking them, but not until that happens, and they would never be justified in simply firing into a crowd

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29863150]that doesn't matter. you don't gun people down simply because you were "provoked" by some property damage[/QUOTE] Uh, they do smuggle weapons in from Syria you know. And a complete collapse of the border patrols making an open border isn't a good thing. They were undermanned, probably weren't trained for it and it was an unfortunate incident. Also why do people always dumb it down like that? Ignoring elements to make their side is just spin. You don't come to a better conclusion simplifying it, just property damage, just a few protesters, none of this helps. [editline]16th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29863267]it affects the lives of the people they killed so yes it's wrong[/QUOTE] That's not how it works, you can't just say someone died so they're wrong. What would someone else do in that scenario, would they handle it better, would they have avoided those deaths somehow? Moral right and wrong just decides the goals, this is about the actions.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;29863283]Uh, they do smuggle weapons in from Syria you know.[/QUOTE] the protestors who got shot likely weren't involved in that [QUOTE=Devodiere;29863283] And a complete collapse of the border patrols making an open border isn't a good thing. They were undermanned, probably weren't trained for it and it was an unfortunate incident.[/QUOTE] it would be an "unfortunate incident" if shit like this didn't happen all the time. the fact that civilians are being killed by the israeli military [i]constantly[/i] is indicative of a deeper reaching problem. being undermanned doesn't excuse or even slightly alleviate taking peoples' lives

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29863216]you could argue that, but you shouldn't argue that because I'd verbally whale on anyone who did[/QUOTE] Oh no soldiers defending themselves when they are getting rocks thrown at them that's terrible, if anyone defends the soldiers I'm going to berate you something fierce!