Israeli troops fire on Palestinian protesters along Syria, Gaza, and Lebanon borders - Polidicks

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29863332]the protestors who got shot likely weren't involved in that[/quote] Sitting up in a guard tower, huge crowd of protesters storms the fence, shots fired, oh they're only protesters, they probably aren't doing anything suspicious. 20-20 hindsight, the fact that they could of used the confusion of a crowd to smuggle shit and giving them the benefit of the doubt. [quote]it would be an "unfortunate incident" if shit like this didn't happen all the time. the fact that civilians are being killed by the israeli military [i]constantly[/i] is indicative of a deeper reaching problem. being undermanned doesn't excuse or even slightly alleviate taking peoples' lives[/QUOTE] Again, more complex than that. The Israeli military don't go out of their way to kill them, incidents like that are common so obviously they will happen more often than in other places. I would say it's more circumstantial than indicative of deeper problems. Seriously, I understand where you are coming from with the screaming bloody murder but the blame is on a lot of people and what you are doing isn't helping at all. You can either call them evil and say it won't help the suffering of the nameless protester you have a strange affection for or you can sort through the facts and think how it could be prevented.

[QUOTE=bravehat;29863386]Oh no soldiers defending themselves when they are getting rocks thrown at them that's terrible, if anyone defends the soldiers I'm going to berate you something fierce![/QUOTE] great post bro i'm definitely going to type out a well thought out response to your insightful and incisive pahahahaha jk [QUOTE=Devodiere;29863445] 20-20 hindsight, the fact that they could of used the confusion of a crowd to smuggle shit and giving them the benefit of the doubt.[/QUOTE] "death" isn't an acceptable punishment for "maybe smuggling weapons" and even if it were, soldiers are not judges and juries [QUOTE=Devodiere;29863445]Again, more complex than that. The Israeli military don't go out of their way to kill them,[/QUOTE] they don't have to go out of their way to kill them to do something wrong, even if they only had to lift a finger to do it: it's still wrong [QUOTE=bravehat;29863386] incidents like that are common so obviously they will happen more often than in other places.[/QUOTE] this isn't an argument. you're saying "it happens more often so therefore it's going to happen more often." that's recursion. even a single instance of soldiers firing into a crowd should be enough to give pause. other countries certainly don't tolerate that shit [QUOTE=Devodiere;29863445]Seriously, I understand where you are coming from with the screaming bloody murder but the blame is on a lot of people and what you are doing isn't helping at all.[/QUOTE] you have yet to say anything of substance. all you're saying is "it's sorta everybody's fault, i guess, maybe". No, we are talking about soldiers firing into a crowd of civilians. It doesn't matter if the civilians were being rowdy, it doesn't matter what has happened in the past, what matters is that soldiers fired upon people who had, at that moment, posed no real threat to them. under no circumstances is that acceptable. [QUOTE=bravehat;29863386] You can either call them evil and say it won't help the suffering of the nameless protester you have a strange affection for [/QUOTE] how is not being ok with people being gunned down "having a strange affection"? why should i have more affection for the israeli soldier than the protester? [QUOTE=bravehat;29863386]or you can sort through the facts and think how it could be prevented.[/QUOTE] it could be prevented by not letting the soldiers get away with it. you know, [I]the entire point of all of my posts in this thread[/I]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29863216]you could argue that, but you shouldn't argue that because I'd verbally whale on anyone who did[/QUOTE] like i give a shit about your "[B][I]wailing[/I][/B]" because that is what occurred in this instance.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29864106]like i give a shit about your "[B][I]wailing[/I][/B]" because that is what occurred in this instance.[/QUOTE] what? you aint ok with people being shot? quit whining baby :smug: :mugs:

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29864138]what? you aint ok with people being shot? quit whining baby :smug: :mugs:[/QUOTE] huh?

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29864173]huh?[/QUOTE] well either you're unfamiliar with the verb "to whale" or you're accusing me of being whiny with a lame pun which is it

i think you mean wail. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] not worth an argument though.

[QUOTE=bravehat;29863386]Oh no soldiers defending themselves when they are getting rocks thrown at them that's terrible, if anyone defends the soldiers I'm going to berate you something fierce![/QUOTE] I like how you're defending a massacre because people damaged a fence. [editline]16th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Devodiere;29863445] 20-20 hindsight, the fact that they could of used the confusion of a crowd to smuggle shit and giving them the benefit of the doubt.[/QUOTE] I don't know what kind of fucked up third-world country you may live in, but civilised human beings don't gun down a dozen innocent people because they MAY be smuggling things in.

I hope you guys do realize though that protesters in Syria and Libya were not different then these ones. These guys are unarmed as well. Yet when they try to revolt against a country that illegally occupies a part of their land, they're the bad guys. Unless it's Libya/Syria. [editline]16th May 2011[/editline] Imagine if Libya illegally occupied a part neighboring nation X (Israel and the Golan Heights which belong to Syira) and upon Libya's creation, the native inhabitants of Libya were expelled to nation X. Now if those people began to protest and march towards Libya's borders with nothing but stones against armored soldiers, and those soldiers fired upon those protesters, there would be an entirely viewpoint.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29864317]i think you mean wail. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] not worth an argument though.[/QUOTE] [url]http://mw2.m-w.com/thesaurus/whale%5Bverb%5D[/url]

[QUOTE=Kai-ryuu;29844362]Every blind person in the western hemisphere that lets the media make them believe [/QUOTE] This surprises me, because every time I flip on the news here in Norway it's all anti-Israel, and all cases of violence are covered from only Palestine's side. It's a shame to see that there is yet to be neutral media coverage in any country. I'll have to stick to Wikipedia for now, before I can make my own informed decisions.

When you are surrounded by enemies on all borders, possibly the most hated nation in the world, and violent protesters (also known as attackers) are charging your border, you have the right to react with military force. If Israel doesn't defend itself violently, it would be overrun by these people.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29868675][url]http://mw2.m-w.com/thesaurus/whale%5Bverb%5D[/url][/QUOTE] none of those words relate to the "verbally whaling" that you said. stop. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=amute;29866874]I like how you're defending a massacre because people damaged a fence. [editline]16th May 2011[/editline] I don't know what kind of fucked up third-world country you may live in, but civilised human beings don't gun down a dozen innocent people because they MAY be smuggling things in.[/QUOTE] fuck it. every one of your posts is fucking terrible.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];29876225']When you are surrounded by enemies on all borders, possibly the most hated nation in the world, and violent protesters (also known as attackers) are charging your border, you have the right to react with military force. [/QUOTE] not on civilians you don't [editline]16th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=DogGunn;29877371] fuck it. every one of your posts is fucking terrible.[/QUOTE] i can't defend my morally reprehensible viewpoint so i'll just shitpost and call people bad posters

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29878142]i can't defend my morally reprehensible viewpoint so i'll just shitpost and call people bad posters[/QUOTE] yeah that's it. you got it in one.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29878142]not on civilians you don't [editline]16th May 2011[/editline] i can't defend my morally reprehensible viewpoint so i'll just shitpost and call people bad posters[/QUOTE] Are they still civilians when they attack your country?

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29877371]none of those words relate to the "verbally whaling" that you said. stop. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] fuck it. every one of your posts is fucking terrible.[/QUOTE] I am so so glad you have refuted me with that pointless remark. Meanwhile, you're defending a massacre and arguing semantics. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE='[sluggo];29876225']When you are surrounded by enemies on all borders, possibly the most hated nation in the world, and violent protesters (also known as attackers) are charging your border, you have the right to react with military force. If Israel doesn't defend itself violently, it would be overrun by these people.[/QUOTE] Israel should probably, like, y'know, stop doing shit to make it hated. And the protestors were damaging the fence. Any normal first-world country will access the situation, maybe bring in riot-control specialists, or retreat and try to find a way to deal with a bunch of unarmed people - Not [B]fucking open fire and slaughter a dozen innocent and unarmed people. [/B]This is the same shit Syria and Libya is doing. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] Plain and simple, this was a cold-blooded massacre and a war crime.

I really think Israel needs to have a fucking wake up call, Libya was better than this, and the UN sent troops in, but because of the Holocaust they instantly get the right to do this to other people? [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE='[sluggo];29876225']When you are surrounded by enemies on all borders, possibly the most hated nation in the world, and violent protesters (also known as attackers) are charging your border, you have the right to react with military force. If Israel doesn't defend itself violently, it would be overrun by these people.[/QUOTE] What the fuck? The Israelis have oppressed the Palestinian people for years! 'Course it's not a simple issue, there's a lot of things that need to be considered.

[QUOTE=amute;29882426]I am so so glad you have refuted me with that pointless remark. Meanwhile, you're defending a massacre and arguing semantics. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] Israel should probably, like, y'know, stop doing shit to make it hated. And the protestors were damaging the fence. Any normal first-world country will access the situation, maybe bring in riot-control specialists, or retreat and try to find a way to deal with a bunch of unarmed people - Not [B]fucking open fire and slaughter a dozen innocent and unarmed people. [/B]This is the same shit Syria and Libya is doing. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] Plain and simple, this was a cold-blooded massacre and a war crime.[/QUOTE] Swedens didn't start shooting finnish nutjobs at the weekend when the madness started, did they? Israel just don't know how to solve problems without bullets anymore.

[QUOTE=amute;29882426]I am so so glad you have refuted me with that pointless remark. Meanwhile, you're defending a massacre and arguing semantics. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] Israel should probably, like, y'know, stop doing shit to make it hated. And the protestors were damaging the fence. Any normal first-world country will access the situation, maybe bring in riot-control specialists, or retreat and try to find a way to deal with a bunch of unarmed people - Not [B]fucking open fire and slaughter a dozen innocent and unarmed people. [/B]This is the same shit Syria and Libya is doing. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] Plain and simple, this was a cold-blooded massacre and a war crime.[/QUOTE] [img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6G46b4hfMBA/TSHCwGDxRaI/AAAAAAAACFo/fAl2yWdP1So/s1600/israel_wall_tower_2_UFNlj_3868.jpg[/img] This is a fence? This is a fucking fence? I'd hate to see what you call a massive motherfucking wall used to keep Palestines out! [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] It's segregation, it's apartheid, whatever you call it it's the same thing and you can't fucking sugarcoat it. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] And just because the Jewish people were wronged doesn't make this any better, it's just like Americans when you bring up the Native Indian and African people "Other countries did it as well!" Well that makes it all fucking better doesn't it?

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;29864002]"death" isn't an acceptable punishment for "maybe smuggling weapons" and even if it were, soldiers are not judges and juries[/quote] It wasn't a cold execution as you seem to think, they didn't point someone out and say he is deserving of death. Something had to be done as is their duty, use of lethal force on a hostile border is not uncommon. He was just the unfortunate one who got caught up in it. [quote]they don't have to go out of their way to kill them to do something wrong, even if they only had to lift a finger to do it: it's still wrong[/quote] That's not the point. The point is they don't try to kill them or antagonise them without reason, it is always in response to something done. They are constantly put in positions where they can't do anything without making shit worse. Go easy on the checkpoints, everybody has a suicide vest. Don't control some protesters at the border, arms and illegals get over. It's not good enough to say they weren't involved in that or that is unlikely to happen, they do not have the ability to differentiate and I'm sure you couldn't tell the difference between rioting protesters and rioting smugglers from a distance. [quote]you have yet to say anything of substance. all you're saying is "it's sorta everybody's fault, i guess, maybe". No, we are talking about soldiers firing into a crowd of civilians. It doesn't matter if the civilians were being rowdy, it doesn't matter what has happened in the past, what matters is that soldiers fired upon people who had, at that moment, posed no real threat to them. under no circumstances is that acceptable. [/quote] You say it is unacceptable, I say nothing could have been done to prevent it, even not shooting would have just let things get worse. It was not a choice of kill or live peacefully and happy, it was use lethal force to keep down a violent protest at a hostile border or just let them go and see what mayhem they cause. They have to have a little more foresight than the immediate and regardless of your unacceptable, things that more directly affected them could have gone wrong than the disapproval of the internet. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=amute;29866874]I don't know what kind of fucked up third-world country you may live in, but civilised human beings don't gun down a dozen innocent people because they MAY be smuggling things in.[/QUOTE] I'm from the Congo. Here police understand that there exists such a thing as extenuating circumstance and simplifying issues to murder, property damage and naivety is silly.

i don't understand why they don't just send in like, riot police with batons and shields or something? surely that would be a more reasonable way to react to protesters than shooting them.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;29883765]i don't understand why they don't just send in like, riot police with batons and shields or something? surely that would be a more reasonable way to react to protesters than shooting them.[/QUOTE] They thought the protests would be further out instead of right up against the border. They were unprepared and it's not easy to get riot police out on a moments notice.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;29883782]They thought the protests would be further out instead of right up against the border. They were unprepared and it's not easy to get riot police out on a moments notice.[/QUOTE] well, surely they're trained in some form of unarmed combat or non-lethal force?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;29883917]well, surely they're trained in some form of unarmed combat or non-lethal force?[/QUOTE] They have rubber bullets, dunno if they used them or what. Tear gas too but it's not really the stuff they distribute to soldiers guarding a border. Other than that, I doubt many Israeli soldiers are Bruce Lee and can take on a large group of people like that. Really it's a matter of preparing better so they don't have to use lethal force. They didn't, so someone died.

i don't know if you should be so nonchalant about it.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;29884003]i don't know if you should be so nonchalant about it.[/QUOTE] If they're unprepared, what's the alternative? Should the people rioting give Israel extra notice of their protests?

[QUOTE=Kai-ryuu;29844362]Every blind person in the western hemisphere that lets the media make them believe that Israel is the only victim in this and that Palestine is the enemy and is all terrorists. Also, I know Facepunch has a few Israelis so it'll be fun to see their reasoning and justification for this.[/QUOTE] I'm an Israeli and I'm not here to blindly justify. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] However, you blindly justify everyone but Israel, which is also stupid.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;29884003]i don't know if you should be so nonchalant about it.[/QUOTE] I am generally a calm person and prefer not to dwell on tragedies. Nothing is gained by mourning someone I never knew and it is not a requirement to know that it should have been prevented. I do not become invested in it, but I do not treat death with unconcern.

We're on the same boat buddy. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] ninja'd automerge