Israeli troops fire on Palestinian protesters along Syria, Gaza, and Lebanon borders - Polidicks

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29899828]why bother responding to it. all of sigmalambda's posts are childish. as are amutes.[/QUOTE] SigmaLambda has something to say, I think he's just getting a bit fed up with it though. I wouldn't say childish either, just mocking. Less point is made but who gives a fuck, this is going on for ages anyway.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29899828]all of sigmalambda's posts are childish.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=DogGunn;29899633]lol[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=DogGunn;29899572] lol[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=DogGunn;29899310] lol - this isn't worthy of a response.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=DogGunn;29877371] fuck it. every one of your posts is fucking terrible.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Devodiere;29899883]SigmaLambda has something to say, I think he's just getting a bit fed up with it though. I wouldn't say childish either, just mocking.[/QUOTE] I'm getting fed up with it because, well, look right ^above^

-snip- [editline]18th May 2011[/editline] well done sigmalambda for pointing out when i responded to your childish retorts.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29899858]yes. they didn't enter because the idf fired. i have no doubt that the idf could've handled the situation much better, but i have no doubt it could've been much worse if they didn't do what they did then. and that's much worse for both sides.[/QUOTE] Honestly, if this group really had the intent to fight the soldiers, why on earth would they run away after being shot at? Do you really believe that if people wanted to fight soldiers, they wouldn't expect to be shot at all?

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29899853]I guess it's good that the protesters didn't fire at them (since they had no guns) then, huh? I guess not, considering the soldiers still open fired.[/QUOTE] I'm sure you can understand the difference between 12 and a fuckload more. We want to avoid as many deaths as we can, people call it a massacre now but what do you think would have happened then?

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29899886]-snip- [editline]18th May 2011[/editline] well done sigmalambda for pointing out when i responded to your childish retorts.[/QUOTE] Generally when you call someone else childish, try not to leave behind a bunch of responses that basically boil down to "lol you're dumb".

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29899908]Honestly, if this group really had the intent to fight the soldiers, why on earth would they run away after being shot at?[/QUOTE] because self preservation kicked in - much like how the soldiers felt the same rationale for shooting at them. [QUOTE=Megafanx13;29899908]Do you really believe that if people wanted to fight soldiers, they wouldn't expect to be shot at all?[/QUOTE] i have no idea what they were thinking. i wasn't part of the protest. but from what i've read, it wasn't a peaceful one. [editline]18th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafanx13;29899925]Generally when you call someone else childish, try not to leave behind a bunch of responses that basically boil down to "lol you're dumb".[/QUOTE] and i regret replying to them. but i won't be anymore. stupid retorts aren't worth any effort.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;29899909]I'm sure you can understand the difference between 12 and a fuckload more. We want to avoid as many deaths as we can, people call it a massacre now but what do you think would have happened then?[/QUOTE] I can certainly understand the difference between 12 and more, however I must ask again: If these people had intent to fight and injure/kill soldiers, why did they suddenly stop when fired upon? If I was going to a riot with the intent to fight the IDF, I'd expect some shooting. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=DogGunn;29899929]because self preservation kicked in - much like how the soldiers felt the same rationale for shooting at them.[/QUOTE] So a group of people with the intent to fight/kill IDF soldiers just high-tailed it (keep in mind that when 12 are killed out of hundreds, there are still hundreds left) and stopped? I really can't imagine these people with that level of hostile intent.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29899945]I can certainly understand the difference between 12 and more, however I must ask again: If these people had intent to fight and injure/kill soldiers, why did they suddenly stop when fired upon? If I was going to a riot with the intent to fight the IDF, I'd expect some shooting.[/QUOTE] Because reality kicked in that they were going to defend the border and fear of death prevailed over their anger. If they can go in, the guys run away and you trash some shit, awesome. If you go there and they start shooting at you, you get the fuck out of there. They didn't want a fight per se, just a bit of vengeance at them. Beating the shit out of a few soldiers, breaking their shit and whoever wants running across the border is fine, but if they have to pay with their lives then they're gonna get the fuck out of there.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29899945]So a group of people with the intent to fight/kill IDF soldiers just high-tailed it (keep in mind that when 12 are killed out of hundreds, there are still hundreds left) and stopped? I really can't imagine these people with that level of hostile intent.[/QUOTE] yes, clearly they value their own lives, much like how the soldiers value their own lives. if some of their other protesters had been injured or killed - they knew it could get worse for them if they continued. nations at war retreat from battles in order to protect their soldiers from more harm. just because they've turned around and gone back doesn't mean that their point is moot.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;29899990]Because reality kicked in that they were going to defend the border and fear of death prevailed over their anger. If they can go in, the guys run away and you trash some shit, awesome. If you go there and they start shooting at you, you get the fuck out of there. They didn't want a fight per se, just a bit of vengeance at them. Beating the shit out of a few soldiers, breaking their shit and whoever wants running across the border is fine, but if they have to pay with their lives then they're gonna get the fuck out of there.[/QUOTE] You do realize these people have a fair bit of reason to be angry with the IDF. If you're going to justify the IDF's "acting in the moment" style decision making, then the rioter's emotional decision making is no less justified.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29900030]then the rioter's emotional decision making is no less justified.[/QUOTE] we're only talking about if their intention to harm existed, not their rationale behind it.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29900075]we're only talking about if their intention to harm existed, not their rationale behind it.[/QUOTE] That's right, and I don't believe that there was. Far worse things happen in more violent riots than a broken fence and some thrown rocks.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29900104]Far worse things happen in more violent riots than a broken fence and some thrown rocks.[/QUOTE] yes that's correct - but the idf's actions stopped far worse things from occurring.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29900030]You do realize these people have a fair bit of reason to be angry with the IDF. If you're going to justify the IDF's "acting in the moment" style decision making, then the rioter's emotional decision making is no less justified.[/QUOTE] Indeed but we all do as we do. I find justified a stupid term for this reason. They joined a protest because they are angry, it moved to the border whether they wanted it to or not, when shots started firing they knew it was likely to happen. They took a risk like everyone else to stand up and protest instead of hiding at home, I understand that. They knew this risk though and the consequences are a part of that. No-one is an animal incapable of responsibility for their actions, they knew what they were doing.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29899886]-snip- [editline]18th May 2011[/editline] well done sigmalambda for pointing out when i responded to your childish retorts.[/QUOTE] With childish posts. Can you argue like a normal person? [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] I have a question for you Israeli apologists: Do you think falling back and getting Riot-control to come in and help disperse crowds, which is what the soldiers in Jerusalem did, is a much better decision then just gunning down innocent unarmed people?

Let's have a history lesson, shall we? I'm gonna range across all I've read so far. Back in 1918, the Germans finally admitted defeat in WWI. A group was established to decide their fate, with the United States being a major factor due to the amount of troops and supplies they pumped into the war. They did not have the most stake in damages, nor the most casualties, but they had established themselves as a superpower. President Woodrow Wilson entered what was known as his famous 'Fourteen Points'. In it, he stated that the German people should not be held responsible, and that a League of Nations should be formed involving [B]every[/B] country, not just the victors. This was swiftly thrown out the window by the French. The German people, who had not chosen to go to war, but fought for their country proudly, were saddled with a debt so large that it was only paid off within the last decade. They were given no say in the League of Nations, and had the Weimar Republic forced upon them as their government. As the Treaty of Versailles was signed, the US backed out of the League of Nations, whose creation had been warped to the purposes of others. The Weimar Republic, having no popularity with the people, were blamed by virtually all Germans for both the loss off WWI and the crushing debt which hung over them. In 1923, a charasmatic Austrian war veteran attempted a coup d'état which ultimately failed, and he was imprisoned. During his imprisonment, he wrote a book of what he perceived to be the troubles plaguing society. Much of this was persuasive speech marking those of Jewish descent as the reason for their current situation. This book had around ten million copies distributed, and was given free to newlyweds and soldiers. As the Great Depression swept through Germany, many citizens wished for a strong, united Germany as was had by their ancestors. Thus Hitler rose into prominance. By 1934, he was glorified by the citizens and was the supreme autocrat of his 'Third Reich'. After proper indoctrination, he convinced the people that those of impure descent, Jews, non-Jewish Poles, Communists and political opponents, members of resistance groups, homosexuals, Roma, the physically handicapped, the mentally retarded, Soviet prisoners of war, Jehovah's Witnesses, Adventists, trade unionists, and psychiatric patients were to be cleansed from the earth. They were either killed in their homes, on the streets, or in Concentration camps and death camps. These were not discovered until Allied forces happened upon them in their invasion of 'Fortress Europe'. Since the Balfour Declaration of 1917, the British had set that the Jewish people needed a homeland, and that is would be in Palestine. At the time it was a british colonial possession, and Zionist factions within Britain purchased great tracts of land within Palestine. As early as 1919, Jewish settlers were being moved to the region by the British. They quickly worked to set up a self-sustaining agricultural economy. The large rate of Jewish immigration caused tension with neighboring Arabs, who began attacking Jewish settlements. At the inability of the british to protect all who needed it, a Jewish militia was formed to defend the afflicted settlements. In 1939, the british issued The White Paper which stated that the Balfour Declaration had been acheived, and that along with working towards the independence of the Jewish state there was a quota of 75,000 immigrants for the peridod of 1940-1944. During WWII, 72% of Jewish persons within Nazi Europe were killed, and in an effort to escape extermination illegal immigration into Palestine sky-rocketed. The british tried laying further restrictions, interning illegal immigrants, and arresting Jewish leaders, but by 1948 the last of british forces had left the area. On May 14th, 1948, the Jewish population declared the creation of the State of Israel. Immediately, the Arab League members Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, and Transjordan declared war. The UN resolved an arms embargo for the region, but Czechoslovakia violated the resolution by supplying the Jewish forces, now officially the Israeli Defense Forces, with critical equipment needed to match the british supplies the arabs had retained. As the conflict continued, the IDF gained the upper hand, and a 'permanent' ceasefire was declared. As a result of the war, it's estimated around 726,000 Palestinians either fled or were evicted. Following was the Suez War in 1956, in which Egypt both blocked off the Suez Canal to use for Israel and also began launching attacks from the Gaza Strip. The Israelis then invaded and took the Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula before British and French forces stepped in. On June 5 1967, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan began amassing their armies for attack on the Israeli borders. Israel responded by taking out all three air forces, then successively defeated the three armies. A ceasefire was called on June 11, marking the Six-Day War. On October 6, 1973, as Jewish adults fasted in recognition of Yom Kippur, Syrian and Egyptian forces launched an attack on Israel. Though slow to respond, the Israelis eventually repulsed both forces. In 1982, at the attempted assassination of an Israeli ambassador, the IDF invaded southern Lebanon to remove hostile forces whihc were believed to have been conjunct with the attempt. On October 26, 1994, Israel and Jordan entered into a peace treaty. In 2000, Israel withdrew it's remaining security forces from southern Lebanon. In September of 2000, Palistinians staged the Al-Aqsa Intifada, a period of intensified Palestinian-Israeli violence. As a response, the Israelis began constructing a defensive perimeter around the West Bank. In 2005, Hamas began a mortar and artillery campign from the Gaza Strip. All of this culminates to what we see now. Palistinians amassing around Israel, destroying border fences and forcibly invading Israel. They assaulted Israeli troops, and in one instance attempted to plant an IED at a border fence. The Israel response was swift and perhaps cruel, but as history has shown, the Arab population has been found incapable of non-violence, and any response must be met likewise or risk escalation. There was surely a large difference in capability between the IDF and the Palestinian 'protesters', but they responded in the only way they've been shown has an effect.

[QUOTE=NikoChekhov;29901488]the Arab population has been found incapable of non-violence[/QUOTE] Nice generalization there.

I am thinking you are pretty fucking stupid if you think those rioters wouldn't have ended up murdering any of the IDF soldiers if they had somehow managed to get the upper hand on them. Shooting seems like a safe way to ensure they don't. If a gang of 20 people turned up at my house, with rocks, with the intention of killing me and my family, and I had an assault rifle, would I shoot, or would I wait till they were close enough to disarm and kill me? I'd like to think I would start shooting tbh.

[QUOTE=Stronts;29901894]If a gang of 20 people turned up at my house, with rocks, with the intention of killing me and my family, and I had an assault rifle, would I shoot, or would I wait till they were close enough to disarm and kill me? I'd like to think I would start shooting tbh.[/QUOTE] Perhaps, but throwing rocks and breaking a fence does not constitute an intent to kill, and while you may be willing to shoot a bunch of rowdy folks who show up to your door, the IDF is supposed to be an organized, respectful military, not a large group of thugs.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29901970]Perhaps, but throwing rocks and breaking a fence does not constitute an intent to kill[/QUOTE] Previously it has.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;29902295]Previously it has.[/QUOTE] When? I understand that the IDF has been attacked before by Palestinians, but some specific incidents would be nice.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29901970]Perhaps, but throwing rocks and breaking a fence does not constitute an intent to kill, and while you may be willing to shoot a bunch of rowdy folks who show up to your door, the IDF is supposed to be an organized, respectful military, not a large group of thugs.[/QUOTE] Are you [i]seriously[/i] suggesting that in that crowd there would have been noone wishing to kill all those guards had they got the chance. I somehow don't think you are that thick, you know perfectly well that if those guards had laid down their weapons there is a very, very high chance they would have wound up dead or horribly injured. The way it ended up is [i]not[/i] ideal, however if those palestinians hadn't been there this quite obviously wouldn't have happened.

[QUOTE=Stronts;29902737]Are you [i]seriously[/i] suggesting that in that crowd there would have been noone wishing to kill all those guards had they got the chance. I somehow don't think you are that thick, you know perfectly well that if those guards had laid down their weapons there is a very, very high chance they would have wound up dead or horribly injured. The way it ended up is [i]not[/i] ideal, however if those palestinians hadn't been there this quite obviously wouldn't have happened.[/QUOTE] The point is that there would also no doubt be a good number of people who weren't trying to kill or injure the soldiers, and opening fire into a crowd puts innocent people at an unacceptably high level of risk. Also doesn't that last sentence basically just say "if the protesters/rioters hadn't been protesting/rioting, then they wouldn't have gotten shot"?

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29902806]The point is that there would also no doubt be a good number of people who weren't trying to kill or injure the soldiers, and opening fire into a crowd puts innocent people at an unacceptably high level of risk. Also doesn't that last sentence basically just say "if the protesters/rioters hadn't been protesting/rioting, then they wouldn't have gotten shot"?[/QUOTE] And if you waded in there with some measly shields and batons, how are you going to pick out the random young male palestinian who just wants to show his support for his people, compared to the one that is going to brain you with a rock as soon as you turn your back. You can't, hence you do what you can to keep the lot of them as far away from you as possible. I have been in a "riot" (left as soon as things started getting dodgy) I have been gang bashed at a party. You know what I took away from the experience, never ever enter a crowd terribly outnumbered with possible hostiles in it, you will get fucked. Also, so what if my last sentence says that, its still true. I wouldn't try to rob a bank with a knife and then bitch and moan that I got shot, and how unfair it was that I wasn't engaged in an honorable knife fight and how the guard used excessive force to nutralize me. I wouldn't turn up at a countries border, in front of armed personell with other people intent on damage and murder and then complain when they started shooting to keep us away either.

[QUOTE=Stronts;29902910]And if you waded in there with some measly shields and batons, how are you going to pick out the random young male palestinian who just wants to show his support for his people, compared to the one that is going to brain you with a rock as soon as you turn your back. You can't, hence you do what you can to keep the lot of them as far away from you as possible. I have been in a "riot" (left as soon as things started getting dodgy) I have been gang bashed at a party. You know what I took away from the experience, never ever enter a crowd terribly outnumbered with possible hostiles in it, you will get fucked. Also, so what if my last sentence says that, its still true. I wouldn't try to rob a bank with a knife and then bitch and moan that I got shot, and how unfair it was that I wasn't engaged in an honorable knife fight and how the guard used excessive force to nutralize me. I wouldn't turn up at a countries border, in front of armed personell with other people intent on damage and murder and then complain when they started shooting to keep us away either.[/QUOTE] Well then I'm afraid we'll just need to agree to disagree.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29902390]When? I understand that the IDF has been attacked before by Palestinians, but some specific incidents would be nice.[/QUOTE] In case you only read one sentence of my post, an instance would be the Al-Aqsa Intifadah, Intifadah meaning a mass Palestinian uprising. That was the second one, actually.

[QUOTE=NikoChekhov;29908197]In case you only read one sentence of my post,[/QUOTE] well the one sentence of your first post he quoted was racist so i don't see how you can expect him to bother with reading past that

[QUOTE=Stronts;29902910] I have been in a "riot" (left as soon as things started getting dodgy) I have been gang bashed at a party. You know what I took away from the experience, never ever enter a crowd terribly outnumbered with possible hostiles in it, you will get fucked.[/QUOTE] Here's a good question: Has the police just ever started slaughtering people in the riots you've "been in"? [editline]18th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=NikoChekhov;29908197]In case you only read one sentence of my post, an instance would be the Al-Aqsa Intifadah, Intifadah meaning a mass Palestinian uprising. That was the second one, actually.[/QUOTE] This wasn't an intifada. Two things, one it means 'shaking off' and two, spell it correctly. [editline]18th May 2011[/editline] Stop bringing up past events for this, it means fuck-all.

[QUOTE=amute;29909848]Here's a good question: Has the police just ever started slaughtering people in the riots you've "been in"?.[/QUOTE] The Israeli police didn't kill anyone in the riots in Jerusalem, even though they were fully capable of doing so. The ones at the border were border patrol soldiers.