[QUOTE=V12US;41552139]For those of you arguing that people should be able to wear anything anywhere, why don't you put on a balaclava, walk into a gas station and see what happens?[/QUOTE]
yeah, but there is literally no real reason on why you would do that other than to conceal your face. And plus, this whole bill doesn't even have to do with security reasons, Sarkozy himself said that the purpose of the ban was to "protect women from being forced to cover their faces and to uphold France's secular values" which I think it's ridiculous since in those very secular values freedom is perhaps the thing that's valued the most and I am of the opinion that religious customs should also be protected under the banner of freedom as long as they do not interfere with the rights of others.
[QUOTE=loopoo;41552013]Buddy, Hijab is Sunnah in Islam. It's required.[/QUOTE]
Hijab is the act of covering up and being modest, not an actual piece of clothing. Wearing a veil is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41551453]What's unfit for western society is denying people the right to express themselves through clothing choice.
It's absolutely not ok for someone to tell another what they are and aren't allowed to wear.
It's [i]worse[/i] when the government does it.[/QUOTE]
I don't see anything wrong with burkas, but I agree with Sword and Paint that Islam culture cannot function with Western culture. Not because Western culture can't accept Islam, but because Islam can't accept any other culture.
[QUOTE=butt2089;41552206]Hijab is the act of covering up and being modest, not an actual piece of clothing. Wearing a veil is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an.[/QUOTE]
No, covering up and being modest is the act of covering up and being modest. Hijab is a "scarf" that women wear to cover their hair / neck / shoulders and a bit of their chest. Hijab in Arabic has a meaning. It is an item of clothing.
[QUOTE=butt2089;41552206]Hijab is the act of covering up and being modest, not an actual piece of clothing. Wearing a veil is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an.[/QUOTE]
You're talking about the origin of the term itself, [URL="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-U5yGSCmrB7M/T-6kDKS8qaI/AAAAAAAAAGI/FPv-f3fXV5g/s640/Hijab11.jpg"]this is what's currently known as a hijab.[/URL]
And no, it is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an. What the qur'an does say is that muhammad did not address women unless they were behind a veil, which, considering Islam's nomadic origins, could very well be interpreted as a cloth dividing a tent instead of an actual face veil.
[QUOTE=Badballer;41552244]I don't see anything wrong with burkas, but I agree with Sword and Paint that Islam culture cannot function with Western culture. Not because Western culture can't accept Islam, but because Islam can't accept any other culture.[/QUOTE]
yes as shown by the bombings that occur daily in all countries with mosques in them and those three dudes who wanted Sharia law in the UK and got completely defused by everyone else. obviously Islam simply cannot coexist with us even though they totally are already
vive la revolution
[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldnu5rgiWf1qe5m70o1_r2_500.png[/img]
Damn, those muslim women sure are oppressed, along with all these other folks!
[QUOTE=Gordon Frohm;41552376]burqa:
[t]http://blog.timesunion.com/opinion/files/2011/04/0421_WVburqa.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
Oh, I'm pretty dumb then, sorry about that.
I read that the law in question banned both, and I thought the picture would be relevant to discussion and the subject.
(Sorry again.)
-fucking idiot-
[editline]22nd July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=barttool;41552271]And no, it is not explicitly stated in the Qur'an. What the qur'an does say is that muhammad did not address women unless they were behind a veil, which, considering Islam's nomadic origins, could very well be interpreted as a cloth dividing a tent instead of an actual face veil.[/QUOTE]
Just a heads up, it is stated that a woman should wear hijab. And that bit about Muhammed not addressing a woman who wasn't covered is a load of bogus.
[QUOTE=Cone;41552174]does this mean that balaclavas should be banned though[/QUOTE]
balaclavas is banned in france in public place ^^"
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;41551658]On one hand I agree, on the other I'm not sure whether burquas are a [I]choice[/I] for muslim women[/QUOTE]
Abusing your spouse is already illegal in France, and not giving them that choice is abuse
[QUOTE=slayer64;41547133]1. It's cultural
2. neither the burka, nor [I]any[/I] head coverings, are actually required by Islam. Most of those who wear them do so entirely of their own free will. Telling a woman that she isn't allowed to make that decision for herself is akin to saying she doesn't know any better, which in and of itself is pretty fucking dehumanizing.[/QUOTE]
Yeah the government is really dumb about the whole burka thing, because they refuse to admit that it's cultural and [B]not[/B] religious. When the law on ostentatious religious signs was passed, which forbids anyone from wearing any sort of visible religion related piece of clothing in public schools, they included any sort of veil in the law, oblivious that it wasn't at all a religious sign.
That law is biased and flawed from the ground up because instead of banning promoting religion inside secular public school institutions, it's just taking the "everyone's a criminal" approach and is actively enabling a school to kick out anyone wearing something that's considered even remotely religious. Worst part being that most schools tend to downright ban girls wearing a basic veil that doesn't cover the face while other people can walk around with a cross around their neck, and all they'll get is a slap on the wrist. They won't even have to remove the cross in question or anything, they can just hide it under their shirt and be done with it.
The "burqa law" however is another case altogether, because it involves ALL pieces of face-hiding gear regardless of what it is. Balaclava, motorcycle helmet, keffieh, not important : if it hides most of your face, then it's illegal. Way too many people in peaceful demonstrations have showed up wearing those and started rioting, burning shit and robbing shops all over. Not to mention that it isn't exactly secure to have someone walk into a bank while wearing a huge piece of cloth that covers their entire face to make a withdrawal or access a bank account, with no way to recognize them or confirm it's their face on their ID.
Kind of a separate rant, but there has been issues in hospitals when women wearing an integral veil have refused medical care from a male doctor, even sometimes when giving birth - there has even been several cases of a husband downright assaulting a male doctor trying to help his wife give birth. But this is related to stupidity and not to this law, so yeah.
I just wish the previous governments (which were all right wing and have been so for I think about 25 years) hadn't been so stupid and misinformed when voting these laws. Now we have to cope with people who really resent this law because of the xenophobic turn the UMP gave to it. Usually, cops won't even bother arresting or stopping women wearing a burqa (I've seen a lot in my town at the market, doing their thing, and no one complained at all, didn't stop the merchants from selling and the police passing by was more occupied watching out for thieves than keeping an eye on the women in burqas), but there are some places in France where the police is REALLY biased and xenophobic and will literally spend their entire day arresting black people and arabs for paper checks - there is even a lawsuit going on, with four black guys who don't even know each other accusing the police of biased, repeated identity checks during which the cops insulted them openly.
[editline]22nd July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41557263]Abusing your spouse is already illegal in France, and not giving them that choice is abuse[/QUOTE]
If you or whoever you quoted are assuming every woman wearing a burqa is necessarily forced by her husband, you're wrong. When the law was being worked on, a lot of women used to wearing the burqa manifested, not really because of the law itself, but because the government claimed they were all powerless victims that had no choice - turns out most of them decided to wear the burqa on their own and had no influence from anyone. Some of them weren't even raised in a muslim environment and were actually baptized christians before deciding to convert to islam.
And even then it's not the job of the government to decide what adults should and should not wear. There is the question of decency but it's pretty obvious this doesn't fall in that category, and if this is really an issue of conjugal abuse as they claim it is, then it's your job to prevent or punish these abuses, rather than ban one of its so-called symptoms.
[editline]22nd July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=loopoo;41553538]Just a heads up, it is stated that a woman should wear hijab. And that bit about Muhammed not addressing a woman who wasn't covered is a load of bogus.[/QUOTE]
It's mentioned in the Quran that women should wear decent clothing, as a reaction to most of single women at the time being prostitutes or dancers. It never stated they had to be covered head to toe, it simply means no tits out and preferably cover your hair.
[editline]22nd July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cone;41552174]does this mean that balaclavas should be banned though[/QUOTE]
Balaclavas are already banned in France too. During peaceful protests, the police will be there and will stop any individual hiding their face with a balaclava or anything else, to ask them to remove it or leave the protest. I'm pretty sure it takes a whole lot of paperwork to authorize a protest with people wearing masks, and they'll have to remove these masks if asked to.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41557681]
If you or whoever you quoted are assuming every woman wearing a burqa is necessarily forced by her husband, you're wrong.[/QUOTE]
I was arguing against that notion. I'm not going to pretend that there aren't any cases where a woman is forced to wear a burqa, there absolutely are. But there are cases of other manipulative and abusive (non-Islamic) husbands denying their spouses a choice in clothing as well. And in both cases it's wrong and already illegal without banning burqas.
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;41544309]are balaclavas banned
[editline]21st July 2013[/editline]
that is really the only question that needs to be asked here[/QUOTE]
yes they are
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering[/url]
[quote]The French ban on face covering (French: Loi interdisant la dissimulation du visage dans l'espace public, "Act prohibiting concealment of the face in public space") is an act of parliament passed by the Senate of France on 14 September 2010, resulting in the ban on the wearing of face-covering headgear, including masks, helmets, balaclava, niqābs and other veils covering the face in public places, except under specified circumstances.[/quote]
I suppose that the ban on burqas in public places stems from a long chain of crimes in which burqa-bearing bandits robbed the populace of freedom, property and security, forcing the government to reluctantly pass this law, in a desperate attempt to protect the civilians and prevent further crime sprees.
But I doubt that's actually the case, is it? Exactly how many criminal acts did the burqas enable?
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