[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43683855]The Ukranians have been doing a pretty swell job at ensuring it doesn't turn into a full-scale looting party, and that the destine target always remains the destine target. In the United States, people tend to be unable to keep their dicks in their pants in the regards to looting, and its the first thing they usually do.
See: LA Riots[/QUOTE]
A protest against a shitty government is pretty unfair to compare it to a racially-charged murder case regarding cops and having people go bat-shit over it.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43684412]what a load of shit. everything they say can be said about them just as easily, the main difference being? they are acting as enforcers for a tyrannical regime and the protestors are resisting it. you don't wanna get injured by protestors? don't be a riot cop[/QUOTE]
They are sticking around for the exact reason why I said the lot of them would stick around. It isn't as simple as not being a riot cop when your family depends on it. There's always equality in duality, no matter how much you might want to think they're "wrong", or "unjustified", they really aren't. All they are is a group trying to support themselves with the jobs they could get, even if it means supporting a state doctrine that people don't like.
I've said it before, tyranny isn't any worse or better than liberty. There is no sliding scale of good to evil there, but rather a giant switchboard full of many different variables that affect the whole this way or that way. One side inadvertently standing up for it (out of necessity, if anything) doesn't mean they are automatically villains who deserve to get blinded and fought against.
Your logic can be used against the side you support just as easily. "Don't wanna get injured by riot police? Stop rioting."
But they can't, can they? At least according to what you have to say. Well, neither can the police stop doing their jobs.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43684616]They are sticking around for the exact reason why I said the lot of them would stick around. It isn't as simple as not being a riot cop when your family depends on it. There's always equality in duality, no matter how much you might want to think they're "wrong", or "unjustified", they really aren't. All they are is a group trying to support themselves with the jobs they could get, even if it means supporting a state doctrine that people don't like.
I've said it before, tyranny isn't any worse or better than liberty. There is no sliding scale of good to evil there, but rather a giant switchboard full of many different variables that affect the whole this way or that way. One side inadvertently standing up for it (out of necessity, if anything) doesn't mean they are automatically villains who deserve to get blinded and fought against.
Your logic can be used against the side you support just as easily. "Don't wanna get injured by riot police? Stop rioting."
But they can't, can they? At least according to what you have to say. Well, neither can the police stop doing their jobs.[/QUOTE]
so i guess the protestors must not have jobs or families then? since clearly the only people that have loved ones to provide for are cops right?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43684305]well that is because you're very naive and fantasy-full.[/QUOTE]
Well if we are aiming to take public offices and military buildings, most cities have national guard armories in the United States. Once you take any weapons from them though, you are "stealing government property" and as mentioned before, enemy of the state.
If you don't take those NG armories, you'll eventually be put down by the National Guard, like the LA Riots and OWS. It's pretty much the reason why you don't see so many protests outside of the organized ones, the second you attempt anything like taking a government building, you might as well be carrying an AR-15 or hunting rifle, because the way its gonna end is always with the National Guard.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43684616]They are sticking around for the exact reason why I said the lot of them would stick around. It isn't as simple as not being a riot cop when your family depends on it. There's always equality in duality, no matter how much you might want to think they're "wrong", or "unjustified", they really aren't. All they are is a group trying to support themselves with the jobs they could get, even if it means supporting a state doctrine that people don't like.
I've said it before, tyranny isn't any worse or better than liberty. There is no sliding scale of good to evil there, but rather a giant switchboard full of many different variables that affect the whole this way or that way. One side inadvertently standing up for it (out of necessity, if anything) doesn't mean they are automatically villains who deserve to get blinded and fought against.
Your logic can be used against the side you support just as easily. "Don't wanna get injured by riot police? Stop rioting."
But they can't, can they? At least according to what you have to say. Well, neither can the police stop doing their jobs.[/QUOTE]
They've still made the decision to allow the rights of citizens to be taken away, which is directly counter to the protests, the conflict kinda makes sense
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43684603]gotta love the 'my friend lost his eye to a molotov and he had a family to provide for!' well what about the families of those dudes being abducted from hospitals and tortured and murdered in the woods?[/QUOTE]
Doesn't change anything. Unless the actions of the few represent the actions of the many, in which case the protesters are all thugs and hooligans who are just waiting to find stray officers and beat them mercilessly. Whatever happened to "the ends don't justify the means"?
I guess that doesn't apply anymore when it is for a cause you support.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43684652]Doesn't change anything. Unless the actions of the few represent the actions of the many, in which case the protesters are all thugs and hooligans who are just waiting to find stray officers and beat them mercilessly. Whatever happened to "the ends don't justify the means"?
I guess that doesn't apply anymore when it is for a cause you support.[/QUOTE]
These are people directly standing in the way of the protesters, it's not as if it's "collateral damage'
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43684630]Well if we are aiming to take public offices and military buildings, most cities have national guard armories in the United States. Once you take any weapons from them though, you are "stealing government property" and as mentioned before, enemy of the state.
If you don't take those NG armories, you'll eventually be put down by the National Guard, like the LA Riots and OWS. It's pretty much the reason why you don't see so many protests outside of the organized ones, the second you attempt anything like taking a government building, you might as well be carrying an AR-15 or hunting rifle, because the way its gonna end is always with the National Guard.[/QUOTE]
So you're ultimately saying the US government is more tyrannical about holding onto power than the Ukrainians?
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43684652]Doesn't change anything. Unless the actions of the few represent the actions of the many, in which case the protesters are all thugs and hooligans who are just waiting to find stray officers and beat them mercilessly. Whatever happened to "the ends don't justify the means"?
I guess that doesn't apply anymore when it is for a cause you support.[/QUOTE]
Sooo is your ukrainian cousin a thug and/or hooligan that just knocked the teeth out of a riot cop?
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43684627]so i guess the protestors must not have jobs or families then? since clearly the only people that have loved ones to provide for are cops right?[/QUOTE]
No, but unlike the protesters, the officers aren't keen on surviving on nothing but charity, the promise that their jobs won't all be dissolved later on, and the warmth provided by overrun buildings.
Maybe they refuse to protest or go against their government because they are afraid of a power vacuum, or their jobs won't hold if a more liberal crowd takes over. Rapid, massive change begets a kind of instability that can be hellish, and the distant ambitions of a "good group" might not seem as realistic or obtainable as the current ambitions of an "evil group".
This isn't a fight of good against evil, but rather of groups with different levels of ambition and security.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43684673]So you're ultimately saying the US government is more tyrannical about holding onto power than the Ukrainians?[/QUOTE]
Yup! :v:
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43684795]Yup! :v:[/QUOTE]
lmao
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;43684670]These are people directly standing in the way of the protesters, it's not as if it's "collateral damage'[/QUOTE]
If it's two groups against each other instead of one group ganging up on another that isn't any threat, then you can't really get mad if the police win or use the same types of tactics, if we're gonna go down that route.
Everybody is acting so one sided about it, though, that any victory for the police is a travesty against humanity and every victory for the protesters is a victory of righteousness. They only see, or care about, the circumstances of one side of the fight.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43684807]lmao[/QUOTE]
Honesty counts, aside from the fact I am probably on some NSA or FBI list by now.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43684823]Honesty counts, aside from the fact I am probably on some NSA or FBI list by now.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43684305]well that is because you're very naive and fantasy-full.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43684835]well that is because you're very naive and fantasy-full.[/QUOTE]
Can you actually disprove that every time an organized protest has been started, that the National Guard has stepped in and ended it?
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43684857]Can you actually disprove that every time an organized protest has been started, that the National Guard has stepped in and ended it?[/QUOTE]
The Tea-Party?
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43684652]Doesn't change anything. Unless the actions of the few represent the actions of the many, in which case the protesters are all thugs and hooligans who are just waiting to find stray officers and beat them mercilessly. Whatever happened to "the ends don't justify the means"?
I guess that doesn't apply anymore when it is for a cause you support.[/QUOTE]
that's the point? it's a bleeding heart bit of whining that can be just as easily used by the protestors (although i don't think any cops have been abducted and tortured by the protestors yet). and you're going on about the end doesn't justify the means? yet the end result of providing for a family justifies oppressing people for a paycheck? end doesn't justifies the means is rich coming from you mr. 'i just wanna see tanks run everyone over'
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43684860]The Tea-Party?[/QUOTE]
[url=http://www.examiner.com/article/armed-homeland-security-agents-monitor-tea-party-at-irs-protests]Homeland Security monitoring Tea Party protests[/url].
Granted I haven't really seen many Tea Party protests going passive-aggressive, usually just shit that's organized, and everyone goes home after said time.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43684652]Doesn't change anything. Unless the actions of the few represent the actions of the many, in which case the protesters are all thugs and hooligans who are just waiting to find stray officers and beat them mercilessly. Whatever happened to "the ends don't justify the means"?
I guess that doesn't apply anymore when it is for a cause you support.[/QUOTE]
and might i just add to this, this is the organized police force abducting and killing people, not just the actions of a few, it is obviously condoned by the organization and their superiors not just a matter of a few hotheads going too far
[editline]27th January 2014[/editline]
i wouldn't say the USA is as tyrannical in their approach to protestors as ukraines government has shown itself to be but i don't think the USA has been in the same situation yet either, but you have to admit they were pretty fucked during the occupy movement
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43684895][url=http://www.examiner.com/article/armed-homeland-security-agents-monitor-tea-party-at-irs-protests]Homeland Security monitoring Tea Party protests[/url].
Granted I haven't really seen many Tea Party protests going passive-aggressive, usually just shit that's organized, and everyone goes home after said time.[/QUOTE]
so you admit your prior statement that:
"Can you actually disprove that [B]every time an organized protest[/B] has been started, that [B]the National Guard has stepped in and ended it[/B]?"
is actually bullshit
oh look, some american protest where they seized a government building
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Indian_Affairs_building_takeover[/url]
no national guard
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43684863]that's the point? it's a bleeding heart bit of whining that can be just as easily used by the protestors (although i don't think any cops have been abducted and tortured by the protestors yet). and you're going on about the end doesn't justify the means? yet the end result of providing for a family justifies oppressing people for a paycheck? end doesn't justifies the means is rich coming from you mr. 'i just wanna see tanks run everyone over'[/QUOTE]
I'm fine with ends justifying means, I was just trying to use the contradiction against you since I do remember you saying that phrase before. Of course most of the arguments you or I make can be used by either side, I was trying to point that out but I didn't want to be redundant and say "See, see, it can be used for either side so shhh!".
I'm not trying to make one side look better than the other, instead I'm trying to topple over the one-sidedness of people's complaints and misgivings. Like what with you "giggling" at riot police being pepper sprayed while backed against a wall, whereas you'd rate heart or whatever if it was a protester in the same situation.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43684921]so you admit your prior statement that:
"Can you actually disprove that [B]every time an organized protest[/B] has been started, that [B]the National Guard has stepped in and ended it[/B]?"
is actually bullshit
oh look, some american protest where they seized a government building
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Indian_Affairs_building_takeover[/url]
no national guard[/QUOTE]
Not exactly:
[t]http://www.infowars.com/images/reserve1.jpg[/t]
[t]http://www.infowars.com/images/reserve2.jpg[/t]
[t]http://www.infowars.com/images/reserve3.jpg[/t]
Tea Parties have never really go any further then bitching at some point or time, but they are still marked by several National Guards as being possible terrorist.
Also - [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)]Battle of Athens[/url]
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43684938]Not exactly:
[t]http://www.infowars.com/images/reserve1.jpg[/t]
[t]http://www.infowars.com/images/reserve2.jpg[/t]
[t]http://www.infowars.com/images/reserve3.jpg[/t]
Tea Parties have never really go any further then bitching at some point or time, but they are still marked by several National Guards as being possible terrorist.[/QUOTE]
but they never ended it
stop moving the goal posts every time you're proven wrong.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43684927]I'm fine with ends justifying means, I was just trying to use the contradiction against you since I do remember you saying that phrase before. Of course most of the arguments you or I make can be used by either side, I was trying to point that out but I didn't want to be redundant and say "See, see, it can be used for either side so shhh!".
I'm not trying to make one side look better than the other, instead I'm trying to topple over the one-sidedness of people's complaints and misgivings. Like what with you "giggling" at riot police being pepper sprayed while backed against a wall, whereas you'd rate heart or whatever if it was a protester in the same situation.[/QUOTE]
because the difference is, one side is oppressing one side is fighting oppression. i know you think 'tyranny isn't necessarily bad!' but i fundamentally disagree with that. also i mostly giggled at the riot cop being sprayed because it looked funny. the argument of 'theres no good or bad just different sides!' doesn't work when one side is actively kidnapping and torturing, when one side is actively taking away democratic freedoms (that are considered human rights)
Teaparty is marked as being possible terrorist since half their platform is making deaththreats against the president.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43684673]So you're ultimately saying the US government is more tyrannical about holding onto power than the Ukrainians?[/QUOTE]
well he sort of is, but thats because the U.S. goverment has proper channels for protests, even improper ones such as the marches didn't require guns or weapons. as long as a protest is peaceful the U.S. has no problem with it, hell even the KKK can rally infront of anywhere they want and not get into trouble as long as they are peaceful about it and followed the correct channels
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43684944]but they never ended it
stop moving the goal posts every time you're proven wrong.[/QUOTE]
Okay fair enough, but still quiet frequently in the modern day we see several protests getting shafted by government groups, and any attempt to take federal buildings usually ends with a lot of beatdowns. Any protest similar to the Ukranian's ones would end with the protest getting turned on its head.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43684970]Okay fair enough, but still quiet frequently in the modern day we see several protests getting shafted by government groups, and any attempt to take federal buildings usually ends with a lot of beatdowns.[/QUOTE]
But that is normal and happens in every country. If you're not prepared for a beatdown, don't take part in civil disturbances.
Why does that make you automatically jump to this creepy raiding the national guard fantasy.
Are you suggesting the Ukrainians need to start raiding military locations?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43684990]But that is normal and happens in every country.
Why does that make you automatically jump to this creepy raiding the national guard fantasy.
Are you suggesting the Ukrainians need to start raiding military locations?[/QUOTE]
The Ukrainians raided several police stations and stole the equipment of the Police inside of them.
So they sorta went about attacking a force of sorts, granted though the National Guard statement is a little far fetched.
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