[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43685016]The Ukrainians raided several police stations and stole the equipment of the Police inside of them.
So they sorta went about attacking a force of sorts, granted though the National Guard statement is a little far fetched.[/QUOTE]
and they did it all without firing a shot or murdering anybody
maybe you should learn something from all this
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43685018]and they did it all without firing a shot or murdering anybody
maybe you should learn something from all this[/QUOTE]
Hey I ain't saying we shouldn't take a lesson from them, and by the way like twelve people have died thus far in the protests, two of which were officers.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43685039]Hey I ain't saying we shouldn't take a lesson from them, and by the way like twelve people have died thus far in the protests, two of which were officers.[/QUOTE]
yes people can still die in riots like people can still die in a lot of things
what do you think can happen when masonry and rubber bullets are flying about
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43685062]yes people can still die in riots like people can still die in a lot of things
what do you think can happen when masonry and rubber bullets are flying about[/QUOTE]
tons of bad things, and shock that it didn't get any worse?
I know this is going to sound racist. I personally blame African Americans or rap culture for why we couldn't really have a successful one.
It just automatically goes to looting when it comes to poorer people in those areas. You'll look at Katrina, then you'll look at another similar one elsewhere. One has people actively helping out in the community, the other has a lot of looting. There's just an emphasis on looting.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43684949]because the difference is, one side is oppressing one side is fighting oppression. i know you think 'tyranny isn't necessarily bad!' but i fundamentally disagree with that. also i mostly giggled at the riot cop being sprayed because it looked funny. the argument of 'theres no good or bad just different sides!' doesn't work when one side is actively kidnapping and torturing, when one side is actively taking away democratic freedoms (that are considered human rights)[/QUOTE]
Human rights aren't absolute (they are dictated by philosophy and international charter, nothing else), the kidnapping and torturing is being actively investigated by the interior ministries (it's really the same as anything the U.S. Army did to people in WW2 or Vietnam, you can't call out the entire army for it unless you want to play the "protesters are all bad, too" game).
This world, and all of its populace, are all caught up in a zero-sum game.
The two sides here are fighting for the dismantlement of each other, if you want to talk about "oppression", they are both seeking to oppress each other, but in different ways and for different purposes.
The half of Ukraine that supports their government supports their government for a reason. Not because they like oppression, but because the government provides them with something that the opposition can't provide, or will take away. That goes for the other half. There are things that both parties can provide, and then there are things that parties can only provide at the expense of another part of the population. If this wasn't true, politics, political parties, ideologies, and warfare would not exist. Freedom and democracy for one group will always come at the cost of some group, and that's why there is still oppression. There is always a minority, there is always a lower class. Not because of sadism or a useless lust for power.
Why some ideologies are prevalent while others are in recess is only because of the consistent needs and wants held between the lot of humanity, not because some thoughts or ideas are inherently bad and some good.
So, it sort of does work (the no good or bad argument). To give one everyone something, something else will have to be taken away from everyone. To give one group something, something else has to be taken away from another group. Same goes for here, the oppression can (and will always) go both ways.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43685081]I know this is going to sound racist. I personally blame African Americans or rap culture for why we couldn't really have a successful one.
It just automatically goes to looting when it comes to poorer people in those areas. You'll look at Katrina, then you'll look at another similar one elsewhere. One has people actively helping out in the community, the other has a lot of looting. There's just an emphasis on looting.[/QUOTE]
It reminds me of this old racist man I was talking to in the pub where I work, he said rap culture was part of soviet subversion planted to make western societies weak.
Oh and homosexuals.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43685081]I know this is going to sound racist. I personally blame African Americans or rap culture for why we couldn't really have a successful one.
It just automatically goes to looting when it comes to poorer people in those areas. You'll look at Katrina, then you'll look at another similar one elsewhere. One has people actively helping out in the community, the other has a lot of looting. There's just an emphasis on looting.[/QUOTE]
If only the Brits had the Wu Tang Clan then they could have stopped us in 1776
[QUOTE=Nestophales;43685109]If only the Brits had the Wu Tang Clan then they could have stopped us in 1776[/QUOTE]
There's still a lot of black people in the british isles. :v: And they do have a rap culture, so.
[editline]26th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43685106]It reminds me of this old racist man I was talking to in the pub where I work, he said rap culture was part of soviet subversion planted to make western societies weak.
Oh and homosexuals.[/QUOTE]
Slavic rap is actually really fucking awesome. Turn on CC
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKiB8-2LK6s[/media]
Since I'm bad at being articulate:
The protesters are being just as "oppressive" by forcing their views and wants on the non-revolting population as the government is for trying to deny them that ability. One side of the nation can not have what they want at the same time as the other side. The government just has the upper hand in their ability to use force.
All is equal viewed from an objective lens, and the entire conflict can be reduced to fighting over the biggest slice of the pie.
Nope. The conflict is basically people fighting so they arent arrested for previously participating.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43685148]Nope. The conflict is basically people fighting so they arent arrested for previously participating.[/QUOTE]
Not really, they haven't been on the defensive in awhile.
Protesting, or doing anything for any sort of political change at all, is the same as participating in the zero-sum game. Even if they are fighting against their arrest, it still plays into my idea of it.
Arresting the protesters means eliminating their ability to force change on x. Taking away x from y provides z with x. That's what both sides are doing, they only have different advantages, disadvantages and ideological standpoints.
Did this suddenly just turn into mass debates?
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43685202]Not really, they haven't been on the defensive in awhile.
Protesting, or doing anything for any sort of political change at all, is the same as participating in the zero-sum game. Even if they are fighting against their arrest, it still plays into my idea of it.
Arresting the protesters means eliminating their ability to force change on x. Taking away x from y provides z with x. That's what both sides are doing, they only have different advantages, disadvantages and ideological standpoints.[/QUOTE]
2 days is not really a while.
[editline]26th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=DETrooper;43685220]Did this suddenly just turn into mass debates?[/QUOTE]
I was being really facetious.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43685346]2 days is not really a while.[/QUOTE]
So it started with one group vying for what they wanted while disrupting the normal functions and goals of another group. The other group tried to stop the first group by removing the first group's power to do anything, and now we have this.
Just about anything involving what would normally be "good vs. bad" can be justified (no, not explained; justified) using zero-sum game theory.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43684603]gotta love the 'my friend lost his eye to a molotov and he had a family to provide for!' well what about the families of those dudes being abducted from hospitals and tortured and murdered in the woods?[/QUOTE]
Source? I know of one video where they stripped a guy naked and humiliated him. But I haven't heard eye or ear of this kind of thing. A lot of those cops don't even want to be there, but they have to be because they have A LOT riding on it. Yes, a family to support because I imagine now the economy is in complete shambles. A lot of them get government sanctioned housing. I'd join the cops just to have that shit. You have to remember they took an OATH to uphold no matter what. They're ordered to do this sometimes and it sucks, I know... And no, it's not as easy for them to go just "switch over" to the other side. They'd be so tarnished they'd never be able to work again a day in their lives or hell, even face massive jail time compared to some petty protester.
Granted, some of the cops, yes, are assholes are using this as a way to blow off steam and beat the shit out of some people but hey.. You know.. BAD APPLES, right? And that's just mostly the higher ranking officers. Have you seen pics of some of these cop's faces? They're scared, angry, tired, and don't want to be there as much as the protesters don't. I really do wish this could've been resolved peacefully but that just doesn't seem to cut it in this world anymore.
I feel bad for both sides, honestly.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43685443]So it started with one group vying for what they wanted while disrupting the normal functions and goals of another group. The other group tried to stop the first group by removing the first group's power to do anything, and now we have this.
Just about anything involving what would normally be "good vs. bad" can be justified (no, not explained; justified) using zero-sum game theory.[/QUOTE]
I like you arguments but you do not do them any justice by basing them on the assumption that it is a zero sum game.
I am concerned that a minority of the people are now revolting across the country which may lead to a change of power. Maiden is definitely using this to gain power they couldn't have gained democratically.
I do actually feel sorry for the riot cops.
They are being ordered to stand there and hold the line and they are taking an immense amount of shit. If I stood in line getting pelted with cobblestones and molotovs all day I would be ready to put the boot in on the first protester we caught. It doesn't make them evil, really. Yes, the government should have listened, but they are the government and in democratic countries we are supposed to change power with elections. I'm absolutely certain than the Ukrainian authorities are actively trying to prevent a bloodbath, and it's the riot cops who have to stand in line until the government fine a way to end this.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43686572]I do actually feel sorry for the riot cops.
They are being ordered to stand there and hold the line and they are taking an immense amount of shit. If I stood in line getting pelted with cobblestones and molotovs all day I would be ready to put the boot in on the first protester we caught. It doesn't make them evil, really. Yes, the government should have listened, but they are the government and in democratic countries we are supposed to change power with elections. I'm absolutely certain than the Ukrainian authorities are actively trying to prevent a bloodbath, and it's the riot cops who have to stand in line until the government fine a way to end this.[/QUOTE]
If they are actively as peaceful as you say I don't think they would have passed a totalitarian-ish law that basically made peaceful protests impossible and a criminal offence.
Also I read in a Finnish Paper (Hufvudstadsbladet, HBL) that ukrainian paramilitary groups (UNA UNSO was mentioned) are standing by with manpower and weapons to counter-attack if the police starts shooting.
Can anyone confirm this?
While i do agree with you, the riots aren't really unjustified.
The opposition is protesting for a reason, there's alot of things that the government haven't done like imroving the economy instead of just taking resources for their own personal gain.
(See: The new palace Yanukovych has been building for himself.)
And don't forget that the government made it illegal to protest once the demonstrations started.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43686572]I do actually feel sorry for the riot cops.
They are being ordered to stand there and hold the line and they are taking an immense amount of shit. If I stood in line getting pelted with cobblestones and molotovs all day I would be ready to put the boot in on the first protester we caught. It doesn't make them evil, really. Yes, the government should have listened, but they are the government and in democratic countries we are supposed to change power with elections. I'm absolutely certain than the Ukrainian authorities are actively trying to prevent a bloodbath, and it's the riot cops who have to stand in line until the government fine a way to end this.[/QUOTE]
Don't expect the protestors to symphatize with the riot cops, if the riot cops doesn't symphatize with the cause motivating the protestors.
[QUOTE=Radley;43686651]If they are actively as peaceful as you say I don't think they would have passed a totalitarian-ish law that basically made peaceful protests impossible and a criminal offence.[/QUOTE]
The 'totalitarian-ish' law was a simple knee-jerk reaction because the protest turned violent after some hardline protesters attempted to march up Kiev’s Hrushevsky Street to the country’s parliament and clashed with lines of Berkut who have been guarding the building for weeks. The clashes suddenly turned violent when the protesters started using firebombs and Molotov cocktails.
In effect, the new laws are mere words on paper and come nowhere close to actually being totalitarian in practice, it's literally blatant sensationalism. The laws themselves, are just adaptations of existing laws to make prosecution of vandalism easier and quicker because it was estimated large numbers of people would be arrested in a very short time frame. So in order to cut back on trial fees and work-hours, some of these laws were simplified.
We're not talking about a dictatorship here, this is a democratically elected government trying to reason with the rioters because it's not as easy as just calling it quits and splitting the country apart especially when [i]a lot of people[/i] are against these protests. It's kind of difficult to reason with people who throw fucking Molotov cocktails directly at riot police officers, and then get upset and rage when those very same officers beat the shit out of any protester they lay their hands on because they have colleagues and other friends in the riot-police forces who are now in a coma or severely injured.
And just as a side-note, if they weren't as peaceful as you think they would be slaughtering civilians by the dozens and using far, far harsher methods of pacification.
[QUOTE=Melnek;43686761]The 'totalitarian-ish' law was a simple knee-jerk reaction because the protest turned violent after some hardline protesters attempted to march up Kiev’s Hrushevsky Street to the country’s parliament and clashed with lines of Berkut who have been guarding the building for weeks. The clashes suddenly turned violent when the protesters started using firebombs and Molotov cocktails.
In effect, the new laws are mere words on paper and come nowhere close to actually being totalitarian in practice, it's literally blatant sensationalism. The laws themselves, are just adaptations of existing laws to make prosecution of vandalism easier and quicker because it was estimated large numbers of people would be arrested in a very short time frame. So in order to cut back on trial fees and work-hours, some of these laws were simplified.
We're not talking about a dictatorship here, this is a democratically elected government trying to reason with the rioters because it's not as easy as just calling it quits and splitting the country apart especially when [i]a lot of people[/i] are against these protests. It's kind of difficult to reason with people who throw fucking Molotov cocktails directly at riot police officers, and then get upset and rage when those very same officers beat the shit out of any protester they lay their hands on because they have colleagues and other friends in the riot-police forces who are now in a coma or severely injured.
And just as a side-note, if they weren't as peaceful as you think they would be slaughtering civilians by the dozens and using far, far harsher methods of pacification.[/QUOTE]
Is this guy fo' real?
Either a badly executed joke or didn't follow the live cameras.
[QUOTE=Radley;43686651]If they are actively as peaceful as you say I don't think they would have passed a totalitarian-ish law that basically made peaceful protests impossible and a criminal offence.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Viper123_SWE;43686667]While i do agree with you, the riots aren't really unjustified.
The opposition is protesting for a reason, there's alot of things that the government haven't done like imroving the economy instead of just taking resources for their own personal gain.
(See: The new palace Yanukovych has been building for himself.)
And don't forget that the government made it illegal to protest once the demonstrations started.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=O Cheerios O;43686749]Don't expect the protestors to symphatize with the riot cops, if the riot cops doesn't symphatize with the cause motivating the protestors.[/QUOTE]
The riot police aren't the government though. They didn't pass the laws that essentially outlawed peaceful protest.
If the riot police were as tyrannical russian bullshit as you guys say, then the riot police would have done a lot more damage than they have. Considering what is happening, they are being amazingly restrained. They aren't exactly unjustified in shooting people who are throwing molotovs and catapulting bricks at them, hitting them in the face with hand flares, hitting unshielded cops with chains and sticks as they stand in line. Have you seen some of the pictures? Literally hundreds of bottles and thousands of stones lying around the riot police lines.
How do you think you, personally, would deal with that kind of stress? Remember for these guys it's a job. It doesn't matter what they think about the government, it's their job to keep the peace, up until the next election if needs be. The riot police really are being amazingly restrained, they would be entirely justified in using a hell of a lot more force than they are.
The enemy here is the government, not the riot cops.
[QUOTE=O Cheerios O;43686803]Is this guy fo' real?
Either a badly executed joke or didn't follow the live cameras.[/QUOTE]
yes, i am for real and i did follow the live cameras and i saw nothing to go against what i am saying.
Look at some of this and ask yourself if the cops would be entirely in the wrong if they dispersed this violently instead of just standing there and taking it.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5itgKLG6HeY#[/media]
[editline]27th January 2014[/editline]
They aren't just throwing little stones either, they are picking up paving stones and throwing them.
[img]http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Ukraine-Handmade-Weapons-Cobblestone-morning-670x445.jpg[/img]
It does make me wonder why the police aren't using more drastic measures to control people. Tear gas, rubber bullets, hoses etc. It's quite clear some of the protesters are trying to cause the cops harm.
[QUOTE=Gustafa;43687608]It does make me wonder why the police aren't using more drastic measures to control people. Tear gas, rubber bullets, hoses etc. It's quite clear some of the protesters are trying to cause the cops harm.[/QUOTE]
Because doing so risks a very bloody fight?
[QUOTE=Gustafa;43687608]It does make me wonder why the police aren't using more drastic measures to control people. Tear gas, rubber bullets, hoses etc. It's quite clear some of the protesters are trying to cause the cops harm.[/QUOTE]
I don't think there really isn't much they can do at the moment, or anymore. The protesters are clearly is much greater numbers, very well organized and equipped.
[editline]28th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43687648]Because doing so risks a very bloody fight?[/QUOTE]
Also this.
So uh...
The tanks are 30 minutes away guys.
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