[QUOTE=NoDachi;43970698][url]http://vesti.ua/kiev/38221-pogib-korrespondent-vestej-vjacheslav-veremij[/url]
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26258998[/url]
[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-protests-police-officer-shot-dead-as-violence-continues-in-kiev-despite-concessions-9084097.html[/url]
I'm finding it odd that people are not realizing that these legitimate democratic protests are being piggybacked by large and powerful far-right and ultra-nationalist groups which often instigate the worst of the violence. Just like with Syria.
There are a lot of scum on both sides and its the normal protesters who are getting caught between them and often dying.[/QUOTE]
Do you actually believe this bullshit?
The whole "ultra-nationalist" group thing is bunch of lies.
It's disinformation from the government, and no, the real scum is the government. Why do you think people started getting violent? Berkut has been terrorizing them for a while and I'm glad the people are fighting back.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43970573]My point is your arguments are entirely 1 sided.
The APC stopped before it hit the people, its designed for off road rough conditions. A few burnt tyres, bricks and molotovs wouldn't have enough force to stop the moving APC. The driver clearly used his breaks.
In the early stages of the riot the police were stood in a line, not reacting. The protesters threw molotovs and shot at the police, the police responded badly, true but the rioters initiated the violence.
You see pictures of Rioters with military gear, guns, daggers and molotovs. They are actively out to hurt/kill the police.
Yet from all this you come to the conclusion that the police are the ultimate baddies who make draconian laws and the protesters are the very epitome of justice and liberation.
The government made those laws, you don't know what measures are in place to keep those cops loyal. Some cops might genuinely believe what they are doing is right - That crowd isn't a majority of the population, they are trying to force their political beliefs on others through use of, in some cases deadly, violence.
The police are not the bad guys you wish them to be to satisfy your "black and white" "good and evil" mindset.
The police have had their friends maimed and killed. You see pictures of a protesters with a bloody head and think "baww hes a victim" You don't see the picture of a policeman with a burnt face, the police act professionally and don't have a media campaign showing how heroic they are. For all you know the injured protesters could have charged at the police with a knife seconds before.
You've watched the rebel media and been totally duped into 100% 1 sided thinking. Be more critical instead of just thinking "cops r bad".
Just to make it clear, the laws which started the riot were wrong, but they should have been dealt with in a democratic manner with the opposition taking part in talks. Radical members of the rebels escalated the riot to the point where democratic process could no longer take place. The radical elements started violence against the police with hope they would retaliate. You are not seeing a democratic movement, the ones who pushed the riot this far are opposed to that because they realise this is a more feasible grab for power. They are using the protesters and pressuring the police to act against the protesters.
Please read before replying. Feel free to rate dumb or disagree once you have read.[/QUOTE]
You're not understanding me or my post. I don't want anyone to die, police, protesters, neighbor's cat, anyone. The police are doing their jobs. Their reactions are harsh at times, yes, but they're doing their jobs. The protestors are fighting for their rights, and in order to win their rights they need to get to the parliament buildings of the ukraine.
The police are between them and the parliament buildings, why? Because its their job right now. But their paychecks are signed by the people removing rights from the protesters and because of that, they're in a really bad position.
You're right, the government is the enemy here. But they're being protected by the police. Maybe not entirely by choice, but still. No side is on a moral high ground here because all sides have committed wrongs regardless of motive. The protestors cause is just, though. Its unfortunate that the police are in the way.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43970875]Do you actually believe this bullshit?
The whole "ultra-nationalist" group thing is bunch of lies.
It's disinformation from the government, and no, the real scum is the government. Why do you think people started getting violent? Berkut has been terrorizing them for a while and I'm glad the people are fighting back.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26001710[/url]
I believe the BBC is capable of cutting through most of the bullshit spewed from both sides more than other news sources.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43970949][url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26001710[/url]
I believe the BBC is capable of cutting through most of the bullshit spewed from both sides more than other news sources.[/QUOTE]
BBC isn't always right, you have to take sources from both sides and make your own conclusion.
I have family in Ukraine, all this fearmongering about radical nationalists will make them laugh.
The people are fighting because they're tired of all the shit Berkut has done, humiliating and killing protesters, do you understand how the opposition will react when you start killing and humiliating people?
Trust me, there aren't any large radical nationalists, they're just a group of young people fighting back, and it's better than sitting there and do jackshit.
The president was and still is a criminal, he's mentally stronger than your average person and it will take more than just peaceful protests to make him resign.
[QUOTE=Turing;43970662]there has been no evidence of protestors using guns, that arent airguns
can you give me a source on that last claim, it sounds like it was done by "titushky" aka provocateurs who are paid to go to euromaidan and instigate violence
but yeah, many of them are armed with molotovs, spikes and other weapons
i feel really bad for the police/military people who are forced to go fight, they have no choice because they cant disobey their orders and they have to fight their fellow countrymen
and i haven't looked only at "rebel media", i watched RT and other russian news which are very heavily sided with the Yanukovych goverment[/QUOTE]
Molotovs are a deadly weapon that can kill people, so are guns.
[video=youtube;I6VGcgfJuxo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6VGcgfJuxo[/video]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/user/limeseotips?feature=watch"]This channel[/URL] also have more videos of people storming inside the government buildings. Keep in mind that it's in Ukrainian not Russian.
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;43970889] No side is on a moral high ground here because all sides have committed wrongs regardless of motive. [/quote]
I'm glad we can finally see eye to eye on it.
[quote]The protestors cause is just, though. Its unfortunate that the police are in the way.[/QUOTE]
Protesting for their rights is a just cause.
Engaging in talks, as the moderate opposition was doing, is a just cause.
Hijacking the protests using violence to provoke response from the police is unjust.
Using the previously peaceful protesters as a means of gaining power undemocratically and thereby forcing your (previously as shown by elections) unpopular opinions on over half the population (again going by elections) is unjust.
Manipulating the media and the rights protesters into supporting your political cause is unjust.
If the rioters are successful then a bunch of unwanted laws will be forced onto the country and the people will be too happy about their victory/exhausted/distracted to realise that they have just given up the freedoms they have been fighting for.
This should have been solved by talks, the radical opposition stopped this from happening, thereby manipulating the entire cause for their own agenda. It is not right.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43971034]Trust me, there aren't any large radical nationalists, they're just a group of young people fighting back, and it's better than sitting there and do jackshit[/QUOTE]
No I won't trust you. Emotionally invested kid on the internet
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20824693[/url]
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25910834[/url]
remember it only took 10,000 'jihadists' to ruin the opposition in Syria.
I'm just warning against the fact that plenty of bad people, who are worse than the current government are determined to hijack the legitimate protest for their own purpose. They could ruin everything in the long run.
An armed man in camouflage clothes stopped 3 activits from using a civil police car.
[URL="http://www.varianty.net/17816-ozbroienyi-patsan-na-petrushevycha"]http://www.varianty.net/17816-ozbroienyi-patsan-na-petrushevycha[/URL]
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43971102]I'm glad we can finally see eye to eye on it.
Protesting for their rights is a just cause.
Engaging in talks, as the moderate opposition was doing, is a just cause.
Hijacking the protests using violence to provoke response from the police is unjust.
Using the previously peaceful protesters as a means of gaining power undemocratically and thereby forcing your (previously as shown by elections) unpopular opinions on over half the population (again going by elections) is unjust.
Manipulating the media and the rights protesters into supporting your political cause is unjust.
If the rioters are successful then a bunch of unwanted laws will be forced onto the country and the people will be too happy about their victory/exhausted/distracted to realise that they have just given up the freedoms they have been fighting for.
This should have been solved by talks, the radical opposition stopped this from happening, thereby manipulating the entire cause for their own agenda. It is not right.[/QUOTE]
If you kept track of the protests, there were supposed to be talks, but they never came.
You know what they tried to do? They tried to offer one of the opposition members, Klitschko, a job as PM Deputy but he refused it. You think some type of radical opposition are manipulating the cause for their own agenda?
You're wrong.
[QUOTE=Dromlexer;43971139]An armed man in camouflage clothes stopped 3 activits from using a civil police car.
[/QUOTE]
And so he should. How is them stealing a police car going to help their cause?
There should be a difference between anarchy and protest.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43971130] *message*[/QUOTE]
I think you're believing mass media too much.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43971160] *message* [/QUOTE]
I'll just say policemen shouldn't protect the bandits and their asses. The government mass media of Ukraine and Russia created this "Euromajdan only consists of fascist scum" hoax and such bullshit, but in fact there's only 4 to 10 percent of ultraright and they don't decide anything. As for the "innocent cops", i'm sorry for those who don't want to be there, but in fact almost EVERYONE there is aggresive, because parts of Berkut were hired from the streets, lol.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43971154]If you kept track of the protests, there were supposed to be talks, but they never came.
You know what they tried to do? They tried to offer one of the opposition members, Klitschko, a job as PM Deputy but he refused it.[/quote]
I guess he and his party won't be happy until they're in complete control of the country and putting in laws people didn't vote for.
[quote]You think some type of radical opposition are manipulating the cause for their own agenda?[/quote]
I do.
[quote]You're wrong.[/QUOTE]
An opinion. Nice of you to contribute though.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43971130][...][/QUOTE]
Remember, there's many different perspectives. Some medias tend to stick to one. Some switch perspectives after one time and after one.
It's quite hard to make up a true conclusion when the perspectives are far away from each other.
[QUOTE=Dromlexer;43971257]Remember, there's many different perspectives. Some medias tend to stick to one. Some switch perspectives after one time and after one.
It's quite hard to make up a true conclusion when the perspectives are far away from each other.[/QUOTE]
Thats why I prefer the middle of the road.
Rather than sticking to emotionally charged reddit and facepunch threads for my information.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43971130]No I won't trust you. Emotionally invested kid on the internet
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20824693[/url]
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25910834[/url]
remember it only took 10,000 'jihadists' to ruin the opposition in Syria.
I'm just warning against the fact that plenty of bad people, who are worse than the current government are determined to hijack the legitimate protest for their own purpose. They could ruin everything in the long run.[/QUOTE]
Did I hurt your feelings? Nice usage of ad hominem, that will make your arguments look more clever.
Maybe you should check out Right Sector's site, they're not that bad as they're exagerated in the news.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43971267]Thats why I prefer the middle of the road.[/QUOTE]
And I thought conclusions where supposed to be a middle road. Mass medias often fail to produce a middle road.
You mean the Right Sector that thinks even the right-wing party Svoboda to be too liberal and conformist?
heh
[quote]But unlike other protesters in Independence Square, most of the Right Sector activists do not support the idea of joining the EU, which they consider to be an "oppressor of European nations".
The organisation believes the current situation is an opportunity "to destroy the state skeleton" and start building a new state.
The Right Sector does not associate itself with the parliamentary opposition parties, including the nationalist Svoboda, which it considers to be too liberal and conformist.
All three opposition leaders, including former world boxing champion Vitali Klitschko, have criticised the Right Sector's attack on the police lines and dubbed the radical activists provocateurs.
The Right Sector issued a statement saying that the new anti-protest law approved by parliament on 16 January - which among other things banned the wearing of helmets and masks during the demonstrations - has "ended the Ukraine's aspirations for a peaceful solution of the crisis".[/quote]
yeah real pleasant guys who are not trying to hijack anything
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43971223]I guess he and his party won't be happy until they're in complete control of the country and putting in laws people didn't vote for.
Are you siding with the government? It's starting to look like you think every opposition leader will put in laws that nobody wants.
I do.
An opinion. Nice of you to contribute though.[/QUOTE]
[editline]19th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43971326]You mean the Right Sector that thinks even the right-wing party Svoboda to be too liberal and conformist?
heh[/QUOTE]
What have you been reading. Let me guess, you're thinking Svoboda is a fascist party?
Well I wouldn't think too highly of a party which thinks Ukraine is ran by a Muscovite-jewish cabal.
And holds a torchlight parade on the birthday of a prominent Ukrainian nazi collaborator responsible for war crimes.
Or publishes lists of wealthy jewish citizens and businesses in its open party letters.
Tanks still 30 mins out?
[IMG]http://d24pg1nxua23qm.cloudfront.net/contentAsset/image/5c3938e1-03bf-4bef-a820-e60b4c2b7e76/image/byInode/1/filter/Resize,Jpeg/jpeg_q/90/resize_w/604[/IMG][IMG]http://d24pg1nxua23qm.cloudfront.net/contentAsset/image/197174ac-3fdb-44a1-8cce-a1d8361507f1/image/byInode/1/filter/Resize,Jpeg/jpeg_q/90/resize_w/604[/IMG]
yes, svoboda has absolutely no fascist influences at all...
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43971380]Well I wouldn't think too highly of a party which thinks Ukraine is ran by a Muscovite-jewish cabal.
And holds a torchlight parade on the birthday of a prominent Ukrainian nazi collaborator responsible for war crimes.
Or publishes lists of wealthy jewish citizens and businesses in its open party letters.[/QUOTE]
lol CABAL, what are you talking about? He ment the richest people in Ukraine.
My favorite was the 2005 Svoboda manifesto aptly titled: Stop the Criminal Activities of Organised Jewry
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43971340][editline]19th February 2014[/editline]
What have you been reading. Let me guess, you're thinking Svoboda is a fascist party?[/QUOTE]
Picked a fairly bad argument there. I recommend a back pedal to one of you other ones.
You could also use a loop hole "they're national socialist, CLEARLY not facist".
[editline]19th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43971401][t]http://d24pg1nxua23qm.cloudfront.net/contentAsset/image/5c3938e1-03bf-4bef-a820-e60b4c2b7e76/image/byInode/1/filter/Resize,Jpeg/jpeg_q/90/resize_w/604[/t][t]http://d24pg1nxua23qm.cloudfront.net/contentAsset/image/197174ac-3fdb-44a1-8cce-a1d8361507f1/image/byInode/1/filter/Resize,Jpeg/jpeg_q/90/resize_w/604[/t]
yes, svoboda has absolutely no fascist influences at all...[/QUOTE]
Don't worry they're fighting for everyone's freedom.
edit: apart from the jewish cabal's.
[img]http://www.buzina.org/images/stories/articles/01_boyoviki/ximage002.jpg.pagespeed.ic.ITc97QBdOm.jpg[/img][img]http://diaryofdaedalus.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/svoboda-party-nazi3.jpg[/img]
Totally not remotely looking like nazi's here.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43971401][IMG]http://d24pg1nxua23qm.cloudfront.net/contentAsset/image/5c3938e1-03bf-4bef-a820-e60b4c2b7e76/image/byInode/1/filter/Resize,Jpeg/jpeg_q/90/resize_w/604[/IMG][IMG]http://d24pg1nxua23qm.cloudfront.net/contentAsset/image/197174ac-3fdb-44a1-8cce-a1d8361507f1/image/byInode/1/filter/Resize,Jpeg/jpeg_q/90/resize_w/604[/IMG]
yes, svoboda has absolutely no fascist influences at all...[/QUOTE]
Ever tried stopping to think that the government might dress idiots like these to make the party look ugly on purpose?
To be honest here I just think the ultra nationalists are moving in to hijack the fuck out of this "revolution". It won't go well from here.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43971450][img]http://www.buzina.org/images/stories/articles/01_boyoviki/ximage002.jpg.pagespeed.ic.ITc97QBdOm.jpg[/img][img]http://diaryofdaedalus.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/svoboda-party-nazi3.jpg[/img]
Totally not remotely looking like nazi's here.[/QUOTE]
This was a seperate party, that doesn't exist anymore and Tyahnybok isn't related to it.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43971451]Ever tried stopping to think that the government might dress idiots like these to make the party look ugly on purpose?[/QUOTE]
lmao
"Title - Stop the Criminal Activities of Organised Jewry
Signed by Tyahnybok and 17 others
Lists Jewish businessmen, who got rich in the 1990s, and claims they control Ukrainian media
Describes Zionism as "Jewish Nazism" and warns of "genocide" through the impoverishment of Ukrainians
Demands investigation into the activities of Jewish organisations headed by people "suspected of serious crimes""
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