[QUOTE=Vilusia;43982358]Listen to yourself.
[/QUOTE]
I said "usually".
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982340]What is your problem with protesters?
Everything you posted has something negative about the opposition and even leaders such as Klitschko.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe I have said anything about the moderate opposition. I do criticise them for not calming the situation, Klitschko had a chance to calm things down, he could have ended the situation there and then and approached democratically. Instead he won't stop until he has power, this would be fine had the protests stayed peaceful however...
There are members in the protesters who use lethal violence to propagate the riots. They don't want peace. Every person you see killed, from the protesters or the cops is there because the riot has gone this far. When protesters shoot at police they cease to become protesters, they become terrorists.
The argument that ones terrorist is another freedom fighter is a different discussion but I will say this, the radical elements in the protest are not fighting for freedom.
The Peaceful protesters were exercising their right to protest, that should never be taken away from them, the decision to put in those anti protest laws was a very stupid one, he did withdraw these laws and open talks with the opposition however. It would be nice for him to step down and let his vice take control or call a new election but the riots would make such a thing not possible.
The peaceful protesters are doing the right thing by protesting for their rights.
The "protesters" using lethal violence are in the wrong and should be stopped.
The police are doing a good job staying so calm with all the shit going on BUT
The police who killed/shot at UNARMED people should be brought to justice.
The moderate opposition is being greedy and manipulative by not calming the situation "why take a piece when you could have the full pie, even if the fight for the pie will kill 100s of people"
The radical opposition are just scummy, they're not just taking advantage of a bad situation they are actively working to make it worse.
The government have made soime bad mistakes but I genuinely believe they are trying to keep the country calm, albeit in a very clumsy/stupid way.
The riots being used a means of getting a pro EU governement in place when over half the population don't support the pro EU parties is wrong. It is using the protesters. Blood is being spilled because of callous political agendas.
The media and pro protest campaign is also disgusting and one sided. Most of you have fallen for their massively bias image. Showing dancing medics, fighting cripples, wounded men and glorifying those who use lethal tactics (molotovs, guns, daggers, axes). Those people could be posed, that man whos been beaten might have 5 seconds before hit a cop in the face with a brick. Its incredibly bias.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982390]Also, Svoboda has it's own site. For people such as NoDachi, before jumping to conclusions from reading BBC or the horribly mistranslated wikipedia.
Check their site out for a proper written program, it's also more detailed than the wikipedia one.
[url]http://en.svoboda.org.ua/[/url][/QUOTE]
Read the BNP/EDL/national front website and you will get an equally tame image. You are using the most bias of sources as some kind of proof?
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43982465]Read the BNP/EDL/national front website and you will get an equally tame image. You are using the most bias of sources as some kind of proof?[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah I should totally ignore everything Svoboda says and listen to some source all the way in West-Europe!
How about the horribly translated wikipedia page on Svoboda? Even better!
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982390]Also, Svoboda has it's own site. For people such as NoDachi, before jumping to conclusions from reading BBC or the horribly mistranslated wikipedia.
Check their site out for a proper written program, it's also more detailed than the wikipedia one.
[url]http://en.svoboda.org.ua/[/url][/QUOTE]
Are you using [b]their own website[/b] as proof, seriously?
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982548]Oh yeah I should totally ignore everything Svoboda says and listen to some source all the way in West-Europe!
How about the horribly translated wikipedia page on Svoboda? Even better![/QUOTE]
well the BBC say on their website that they're unbiased so i don't see why you wouldn't trust them
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43982465]I don't believe I have said anything about the moderate opposition. I do criticise them for not calming the situation, Klitschko had a chance to calm things down, he could have ended the situation there and then and approached democratically. Instead he won't stop until he has power, this would be fine had the protests stayed peaceful however...
There are members in the protesters who use lethal violence to propagate the riots. They don't want peace. Every person you see killed, from the protesters or the cops is there because the riot has gone this far. When protesters shoot at police they cease to become protesters, they become terrorists.
The argument that ones terrorist is another freedom fighter is a different discussion but I will say this, the radical elements in the protest are not fighting for freedom.
The Peaceful protesters were exercising their right to protest, that should never be taken away from them, the decision to put in those anti protest laws was a very stupid one, he did withdraw these laws and open talks with the opposition however. It would be nice for him to step down and let his vice take control or call a new election but the riots would make such a thing not possible.
The peaceful protesters are doing the right thing by protesting for their rights.
The "protesters" using lethal violence are in the wrong and should be stopped.
The police are doing a good job staying so calm with all the shit going on BUT
The police who killed/shot at UNARMED people should be brought to justice.
The moderate opposition is being greedy and manipulative by not calming the situation "why take a piece when you could have the full pie, even if the fight for the pie will kill 100s of people"
The radical opposition are just scummy, they're not just taking advantage of a bad situation they are actively working to make it worse.
The government have made soime bad mistakes but I genuinely believe they are trying to keep the country calm, albeit in a very clumsy/stupid way.
The riots being used a means of getting a pro EU governement in place when over half the population don't support the pro EU parties is wrong. It is using the protesters. Blood is being spilled because of callous political agendas.
The media and pro protest campaign is also disgusting and one sided. Most of you have fallen for their massively bias image. Showing dancing medics, fighting cripples, wounded men and glorifying those who use lethal tactics (molotovs, guns, daggers, axes). Those people could be posed, that man whos been beaten might have 5 seconds before hit a cop in the face with a brick. Its incredibly bias.
[/QUOTE]
People were unhappy with their politicians and there was a peaceful protest. Then the government tried to squelch it and it became a riot. Of course there are idiots who are looking for a fight, probably on both sides, but the reason the protest started was the government and the reason it escalated to riots was also the government.
And I thought they passed a law that says the police who commits crimes against protesters will not be brought to justice? I might be wrong on this.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43982465]ok[/QUOTE]
The government made the protesters respond with violence.
The people out there, fighting, are risking their lives for their rights. Yet you have no single respect for their cause and them in general.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cone;43982571]well the BBC say on their website that they're unbiased so i don't see why you wouldn't trust them[/QUOTE]
There's no single news source without a bias.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982548]Oh yeah I should totally ignore everything Svoboda says and listen to some source all the way in West-Europe!
How about the horribly translated wikipedia page on Svoboda? Even better![/QUOTE]
Not at all. You are free to whole heartedly believe what svoboda put on their website. Would be better if you knowledged that is is fully bias propaganda but you may believe whatever you like.
[QUOTE=gudman;43982557]Are you using [b]their own website[/b] as proof, seriously?[/QUOTE]
Where do you think you should get [b]their own program[/b] from?
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982576]
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
There's no single news source without a bias.[/QUOTE]
There is a HUGE difference between sourcing several different new sources and blogs, and sourcing a far right political groups homepage.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982576]There's no single news source without a bias.[/QUOTE]
but there are political parties without bias? [I]towards themselves?[/I] themselves being the guys they want to see elected?
dream on
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43982581]Not at all. You are free to whole heartedly believe what svoboda put on their website. Would be better if you knowledged that is is fully bias propaganda but you may believe whatever you like.[/QUOTE]
And look at you, spreading false lies about protesters.
Well if it says it on their official website then I guess it must be true lets ignore what the unbiased international news agency says they must be lying.
[QUOTE=Cone;43982600]but there are political parties without bias? [I]towards themselves?[/I] themselves being the guys they want to see elected?
dream on[/QUOTE]
Are you serious I clarified that like one post above you.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982576]The government made the protesters respond with violence.
The people out there, fighting, are risking their lives for their rights. Yet you have no single respect for their cause and them in general.
[/QUOTE]
I'm interested to know how exactly did the government do this? What exactly happened so everyone started to make molotovs and batons, beating up policemen, taking their shields, building barricades? [b]What[/b] triggered the violence. It certainly wasn't the legislation, because riots started before that. There were a couple of instances of police being violent, but that too, happened already after the stones went flying.
[QUOTE=RainbowStalin;43982604]Well if it says it on their official website then I guess it must be true lets ignore what the unbiased international news agency says they must be lying.[/QUOTE]
Once more, every news source has it's own bias.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=gudman;43982616]I'm interested to know how exactly did the government do this? What exactly happened so everyone started to make molotovs and batons, beating up policemen, taking their shields, building barricades? [b]What[/b] triggered the violence. It certainly wasn't the legislation, because riots started before that. There were a couple of instances of police being violent, but that too, happened already after the stones went flying.[/QUOTE]
I've heard of riot police attacking protesters at night (because there are less people) before protesters being aggresive.
I think it was this one [url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/kiev-protests-police-barricades-chainsaws[/url]
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982576]The government made the protesters respond with violence.
The people out there, fighting, are risking their lives for their rights. Yet you have no single respect for their cause and them in general.
[/QUOTE]
Could you actually read what I posted. Those partaking in peaceful protest are 100% in the right. They could be protesting their freedom or they could be protesting their right to believe radical far right parties polotical propaganda. The point is they are protesting and it is peaceful. They would be in the right.
Shooting and throwing molotovs are police offers makes them criminals.
I don't give a fuck if someone is risking their lives, it doesn't legitimise their cause. Nazi soldiers risked their lives. It doesn't make them right. Please read what I post in future.
edit: ghost I like your avatar but between you blindly believing national socialist (read their policies) propaganda and not reading a single thing I write, I just cannot take you seriously.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982584]Where do you think you should get [b]their own program[/b] from?[/QUOTE]
If BBC is biased (and it is), then this should be taken as outright lies. It's 100% biased.
[QUOTE=gudman;43982633]If BBC is biased (and it is), then this should be taken as outright lies. It's 100% biased.[/QUOTE]
Which is why intelligent people tend to compare two sources and make their own conclusions.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982584]Where do you think you should get [b]their own program[/b] from?[/QUOTE]
this changes literally nothing about how biased anyone is
[QUOTE=Cone;43982674]this changes literally nothing about how biased anyone is[/QUOTE]
I don't think being biased will affect your program though.
Unless you mean they're lying about it.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43982631]Could you actually read what I posted. Those partaking in peaceful protest are 100% in the right. They could be protesting their freedom or they could be protesting their right to believe radical far right parties polotical propaganda. The point is they are protesting and it is peaceful. They would be in the right.
Shooting and throwing molotovs are police offers makes them criminals.
I don't give a fuck if someone is risking their lives, it doesn't legitimise their cause. Nazi soldiers risked their lives. It doesn't make them right. Please read what I post in future.[/QUOTE]
Oh okay, now I understand what you mean.
One more thing, can you explain what's "nazi" about Svoboda?
are you going to deny that Svoboda is an anti-EU party and thus literally as opposed to Euromaidan as a political party could possibly be? ask yourself if Svoboda would have done any differently from Yanukovych if they were asked by their citizens for further EU integration. i should know, it says so right in their perfectly unbiased and well-crafted nationalist program.
[editline]20th February[/editline]
[QUOTE]15. Terminate agreement with the EU on readmission. Conclude with other states, from territories where illegal immigrants come to Ukraine, readmission agreements (return of illegal immigrants) on favorable conditions for Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
also holy shit these guys are way more nuts than i thought jesus christ
[QUOTE]8. Appeal to the General Assembly and the UN Security Council demanding statements to evaluate the possibility of pre-emptive nuclear strikes without declaring war.[/QUOTE]
[I][B]"Prisoners..."[/B][/I]
[img]http://puu.sh/73lUo.jpg[/img]
[I][B]"Brothers?"[/B][/I]
[img]http://puu.sh/73lTB.jpg[/img]
(The patch is of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs, although I don't think it is Internal Troops. Perhaps someone more familiar could explain?)
[QUOTE=Cone;43982733]are you going to deny that Svoboda is an anti-EU party and thus literally as opposed to Euromaidan as a political party could possibly be? ask yourself if Svoboda would have done any differently from Yanukovych if they were asked by their citizens for further EU integration. i should know, it says so right in their perfectly unbiased and well-crafted nationalist program.[/QUOTE]
You might not fully understand why they protested, it wasn't only about the EU but the government itself.
Svoboda isn't against EU, but they don't want the EU either. Besides, all the EU did was sit and watch while Ukraine is going through all this.
Even the USA helped more than the EU.
Can well stop arguing? People are dying and things are getting worse by the second. It's really hard to stay updated when you have to search though pages of arguing to find and news or updates.
Guys, can we all agree to stop arguing?
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43982759]You might not fully understand why they protested, it wasn't only about the EU but the government itself.
Svoboda isn't against EU, but they don't want the EU either. Besides, all the EU did was sit and watch while Ukraine is going through all this.
Even the USA helped more than the EU.[/QUOTE]
the protests started because the government refused to integrate further with the EU, only comparatively recently has it evolved into being about corruption. which is a valid reason to protest of course, but to act like the Ukrainian people don't clearly want further integration is preposterous.
[editline]20th February[/editline]
i am totally 100% behind Euromaidan here but i just think refusing to acknowledge that Svoboda can and will hijack the movement and run it into the ground is a very dangerous mistake to make
[QUOTE=Cone;43982812]the protests started because the government refused to integrate further with the EU, only comparatively recently has it evolved into being about corruption. which is a valid reason to protest of course, but to act like the Ukrainian people don't clearly want further integration is preposterous.[/QUOTE]
Yup, it triggered the protests.
It is one of the reasons but there are more for example they did it for the future development of the country too.
I'm not saying they don't want further integration, though. I'm sure a lot of them want it.
People frowned upon the government after the elections too because the president has a criminal record and the government is Pro-Russian
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;43982741][I][B]"Prisoners..."[/B][/I]
(The patch is of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs, although I don't think it is Internal Troops. Perhaps someone more familiar could explain?)[/QUOTE]
Ministry of Internal Affairs is basically at the head of everything related to police and internal troops. So personnel from riot police, internal affairs (people in the office), regular police and internal troops would have this patch.
However, I think it's bullshit because:
A patch is not just attached to uniform with a few threads, that shit's hard to rip off.
If Russian forces are there, why not wear different uniform?
You can buy patches (ninjad :-) )
[editline]1[/editline]
Apparently the new issue patches are these:
[t]http://www.zolotnit.ru/images/catalogue/shevroni-politsii-mvd/shevrony-mvd-rf.jpg[/t]
Ones I listed before were the old ones, before militsiya was renamed into police.
[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;43982836]you can buy patches of that exact design online for less than three euros, doesn't prove anything.
find any photograph of an actual MVD troop, their issued patched do not feature that emblem on the flag[/QUOTE]
I was thinking the exact same thing. Manipulative.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
