[QUOTE=Glitchman;43984287]this was hard to watch.
That one guy who got hit in the head right through the shield...
I mean, I get being passionate about protesting
but nothing would get me in their position.
I would just leave, run, get out of there.
Call me a coward but whatever[/QUOTE]
I don't think they see it as a protest.
[t]http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/20140219_kiev_riots_2/ukraine_protests2_085.jpg[/t][t]http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/20140219_kiev_riots_2/ukraine_protests2_087.jpg[/t]
Looks paramilitary.
[QUOTE=Glitchman;43984287]this was hard to watch.
That one guy who got hit in the head right through the shield...
I mean, I get being passionate about protesting
but nothing would get me in their position.
I would just leave, run, get out of there.
Call me a coward but whatever[/QUOTE]
Most of these protesters can't get out, if they do they will get arrested and potentially killed/tortured.
Basically, if this protest fails they are at serious risk.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;43984233]Personally I think it would be political suicide for the Russians to openly announce intervention. I hope, sincerely hope, that it was misinterpreted phrasing from said MP[/QUOTE]
read up on the "Budapest memorandum"
[url]http://unterm.un.org/DGAACS/unterm.nsf/8fa942046ff7601c85256983007ca4d8/fa03e45d114224af85257b64007687e0?OpenDocument[/url]
Ukraine, Russian Federation and United States of America, and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
"The Joint Declaration by the Russian Federation and the United States of America of 4 December 2009 confirmed the security guarantees for Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine that were set out in the Budapest Memorandums of 5 December 1994"
basically Russia and USA agreed not to intervene in the Ukraine
but Russia said that the USA is helping to plot a coup in Ukraine, with the leaked US ambassador tapes
this means that per the Budapest memorandum Russia can claim, that its giving "security guarantee" to Ukraine and helping it "stay independent from US influnce"
[QUOTE=gudman;43984314]No one has sent troops there. And it's absolutely not like anyone else supports rebels either.[/QUOTE]
more so the point I was getting at is that Russia doesn't care much about their appearance in world politics as long as they see benefits from what they're doing. Russia blocked UN actions (along with China) over Syria and still supplies Assad with arms and armor because Assad is one of their very few partners in the middle-east.
I don't see why they wouldn't "help" Ukraine's government if they called for it the same way they had no problem invading Georgia.
[QUOTE=Turing;43984346]read up on the "Budapest memorandum"
[url]http://unterm.un.org/DGAACS/unterm.nsf/8fa942046ff7601c85256983007ca4d8/fa03e45d114224af85257b64007687e0?OpenDocument[/url]
but Russia said that the USA is helping to plot a coup in Ukraine, with the leaked US ambassador tapes
"[/QUOTE]
Very interesting and informative, thank you.
Whoever leaked those tapes is in for some real trouble if something goes down.
I have a bad feeling the government is going to go too far soon.
[QUOTE=StupidUsername67;43984399]more so the point I was getting at is that Russia doesn't care much about their appearance in world politics as long as they see benefits from what they're doing. Russia blocked UN actions (along with China) over Syria and still supplies Assad with arms and armor because Assad is one of their very few partners in the middle-east.
I don't see why they wouldn't "help" Ukraine's government if they called for it the same way they had no problem invading Georgia.[/QUOTE]
Nothing prevents our government from supporting their geopolitical ally with arms and stuff, just like nothing prevents others from supporting the rebels the same way. The situation in Ukraine is quite unlike.
Okay wait, I've been living under a cliff - what the hell is happening in Ukraine?
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43984425]Very interesting and informative, thank you.
Whoever leaked those tapes is in for some real trouble if something goes down.[/QUOTE]
well it wasn't exactly "leaked", the phone was just wiretapped by the russians and the US ambassador was stupid enough not to use a secure line
the russians, probably dumbfounded that the US would discuss something like that on an unsecure phone immediately uploaded the conversation to the internet and sent it to every publication
[QUOTE=geogzm;43984528]Okay wait, I've been living under a cliff - what the hell is happening in Ukraine?[/QUOTE]
People want to be a part of the EU. Government doesn't oblige and suspends the talks with EU. Relatively calm protests happen, 'illegal' legislation passed to ban protests. Shit hits the fans more and more each day.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/BAnuWpw.jpg[/IMG]
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tosadalis;43984569]People want to be a part of the EU. Government doesn't oblige and suspends the talks with EU. Relatively calm protests happen, 'illegal' legislation passed to ban protests. Shit hits the fans more and more each day.[/QUOTE]
absoultely terrible corrupt leader funded by oligarchs goes against the will of the people and chooses russia over EU, then tries to become a dictator, people rise up and want to take the streets, take over government buildings, Russia supports dictator.
[QUOTE=Turing;43984576][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/BAnuWpw.jpg[/IMG]
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
absoultely terrible corrupt leader funded by oligarchs goes against the will of the people and chooses russia over EU, then tries to become a dictator, people rise up and want to take the streets, take over government buildings, Russia supports dictator.[/QUOTE]
Don't want to rage about this, but this photo has been posted about 5 times. Please, stop posting it.
The gov wanted to steer away from the EU and tried to get closer to Russia. People didnt want that and started protesting. Police was sent in and from there things escalated very quickly.
[QUOTE=geogzm;43984528]Okay wait, I've been living under a cliff - what the hell is happening in Ukraine?[/QUOTE]
The people wanted Ukraine to join the EU, but the government thought otherwise. People were sick of their corrupt government and that was the final straw, so people started peaceful protests.
This went on for a month or two, suddenly people started to storm government buildings. It started to get a little violent, but nothing full blown like it is right now.
There was a long standoff in Kiev- nothing really happened for month or so (can't quite remember how long it was).
Then a lot of action started when the government(?) gave the protesters 6 hours to leave(?). Of course they didn't leave, now 70 deaths later here we are.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
Someone please correct me if I got anything wrong
Not everyone there wants to join the eu
[QUOTE=Bumrang;43984688]The people wanted Ukraine to join the EU, but the government thought otherwise. People were sick of their corrupt government and that was the final straw, so people started peaceful protests.
This went on for a month or two, suddenly people started to storm government buildings. It started to get a little violent, but nothing full blown like it is right now.
There was a long standoff in Kiev- nothing really happened for month or so (can't quite remember how long it was).
Then a lot of action started when the government(?) gave the protesters 6 hours to leave(?). Of course they didn't leave, now 70 deaths later here we are.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
Someone please correct me if I got anything wrong[/QUOTE]
it was a peaceful protest, then the police came and without warning beat the fuck out of everybody camping
then it was rock throwing and gas for a while
then the goverment decided to become dictators and everybody got angry, fucktons of people, occupied goverment buildings and stuff
then people started to go missing, only to turn up dead in forests, people started being tortured and everybody became even more angry
then they made a treaty, that if the occupiers release the Gov. buildings the kidnapped people will be released and the dictator law would be erased
but this didnt happen, the people werent released and now its pretty much civil war
[QUOTE=geogzm;43984528]Okay wait, I've been living under a cliff - what the hell is happening in Ukraine?[/QUOTE]
Protests began because the government refused to sign a treaty with the EU, and instead align itself with Russia (who historically has treated the Ukraine like shit and ruled over it), much to the annoyance of the population. They began to protest, and it expanded into a general protest against the corruption and incompetence of the government in general.
The riots intensified to the point the government was unable to contain it, and now parts of the country and army are defecting or splitting off and declaring the current government illegal. The army was told to march on the protesters and there are some obvious internal divisions as they are both reluctant to do so and several in the army have been sacked.
It seems to be like the start of the Ukrainian civil war.
[QUOTE=Glitchman;43984287]this was hard to watch.
That one guy who got hit in the head right through the shield...
I mean, I get being passionate about protesting
but nothing would get me in their position.
I would just leave, run, get out of there.
Call me a coward but whatever[/QUOTE]
Kiev is surrounded. There are no open roads out.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43984852]Kiev is surrounded. There are no open roads out.[/QUOTE]
No civilians can leave?
[QUOTE=geogzm;43984528]Okay wait, I've been living under a cliff - what the hell is happening in Ukraine?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://citizenjournal.info/?id=14710[/url]
People are missing the second piece of the puzzle where in the Ukrainian MP enacted various dicatatorship laws around January. The Ukrainian government sent sms messages to all of the protesters in the area stating to leave or they will be in violation of the law and will be arrested. Since then the anti-protest law has been abolished. Overall what you see now is the result of Ukrainian citizens being fed up with Russian shadow governments in the Ukraine.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43985030][IMG]http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk54/SeamanStainesFP/Ukraine%20Uprising/1392914316949_zpsb83f55a7.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Well fuck
[img]http://i.imgur.com/BXYdUZq.jpg[/img]
Some information about those anti-tank guns from earlier.
They aren't museum pieces. They are T-12s, and are still in active duty with the Ukrainian military.
They might have real usable ammo.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;43985047]Well fuck[/QUOTE]
The guy they took that off is dead.
[img]http://www.pixtr.org/photos/large/20140220139291579652916.jpg[/img]
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
In some videos you can literally see bullets shooting completely through treetrunks next to people.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43985083]
Some information about those anti-tank guns from earlier.
They aren't museum pieces. They are T-12s, and are still in active duty with the Ukrainian military.
They might have real usable ammo.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[/QUOTE]
The way they have those tires just lying on top of them makes me think it isn't likely they have ammo.
Truely horrible, I really hate it that politics(russia and EU/US) are allowing this to happen and exactly the same with Syria.
Might not be simple but fuck, nothing is being done.
I just heard on a major swedish newssite that EU has decided to impose sanctions against ukraine
some more pics of the militia that were abducted earlier.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/RZHE3xp.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/0OzB3V6.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/5jM6F3i.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Valiantttt;43985146]Truely horrible, I really hate it that politics(russia and EU/US) are allowing this to happen and exactly the same with Syria.
Might not be simple but fuck, nothing is being done.[/QUOTE]
Thing is Ukraine hits a lot closer to home for both the US and Russia. It's sad but i feel that both countries would care far more about Ukraine.
I'ts also pretty obvious that the Far-Right is with the protesters now, but so far it seems the Far right is more about fighting the government and stopping people from being hurt than beating up minorities and people with other ideals.
There's a lot of propaganda going on, both on the pro-russian side, and on the protestors side.
Protestors are showing Russian badges, claiming Russia is involved, but this is unproven, and should be regarded as such. The government, or maybe Russia, seems to be hiring thugs to make the protestors look bad.
McDeceiver, please stop with pretending the protestors are a single entity. The people of Ukraine are standing up, and they are comprised of people from all walks of life. There's not just the extremists, or just right-wings or just whatever. It's farmers, homeless people, lawyers, doctors and all sorts of other people. You're saying this is no longer a protest because right-wing extremists are involved, and are using violence. The majority of the protest is and was peaceful, but honestly... if your government would ignore the democratic cries for it to leave, and would then proceed to try to forcefully remove protestors and the protest itself, then maybe I can see myself having to do something more than just talk.
The government should serve the people, and should fear the people. This is not just a simple protest, or a riot, this is a cry from to people to take power back from the now rotten and corrupt governemnt.
And I have a reason to say it's not just a riot, and that's because it's widespread. Everywhere in the country the call can be heard, and seen. Amongst hundreds of thousands of people. The people have had enough, and have democratically decided their government is to leave.
Even if that's not all people, it's still enough for the government to have to acknowledge it and have new elections. If they are so sure, it's just a small group of people protesting, they have nothing to fear in elections.
If the government then proceeds to call them terrorists, and tries to forcefully silence their legitimate protest, then I think the people are in full right of using force to shed themselves of the government, which is now actively moving away from democratic behaviour, and should therefor be considered a tyranny.
Edit://
[B]Also, stop fooling yourselves that this is about joining the EU. It is just what started it.[/B] The frustration is largely with the government itself, ignoring the demands of the people on a variety of subjects.
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710[/url]
[quote]European Union foreign ministers have agreed to impose sanctions on Ukrainian officials "responsible for violence and excessive force".[/quote]
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