Yup, EU just heating the things up (as I said in the other thread). They support and don't care about rebelions and protests as long as it's not happening in their country. Occupy Wallstreet, Paris riots, London riots, all of those have been brutally crushed and everyone carried on with their lives. Why are they blaming this exclusively on government when it was the protesters who broke the truce? And are they implying that (some, not all) these protesters are completely peaceful and that police started shooting at them for no reason?
At first I thought those guys with the yellow armbands were far-right militas fighting the Govt, I actually think they are government forces the more I look at it.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;43985250] Occupy Wallstreet, Paris riots, London riots, all of those have been brutally crushed and everyone carried on with their lives.[/QUOTE]
You realize that all of those had single digit death tolls right? You didnt see British riot cops gunning people down in the streets with AKs in 2011.
[editline]e[/editline]
hell I dont think [I]anyone[/I] died during the occupy wall street stuff
[QUOTE=VOSK;43985270]At first I thought those guys with the yellow armbands were far-right militas fighting the Govt, I actually think they are government forces the more I look at it.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that svoboda?
[QUOTE=VOSK;43985270]At first I thought those guys with the yellow armbands were far-right militas fighting the Govt, I actually think they are government forces the more I look at it.[/QUOTE]
They look like some evil corp soldiers you would see in a resident evil movie killing civilians for the sake of it.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43985327]Isn't that svoboda?[/QUOTE]
They were getting attacked by the protesters, Are Svoboda pro-Govt?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;43985355]They look like some evil corp soldiers you would see in a resident evil movie killing civilians for the sake of it.[/QUOTE]
If they are svoboda then you are talking about protesters.
I'd be perfectly happy if a major EU power stepped in and sent in their military WITHOUT UN approval, because if they asked the UN first i'd almost guarantee that Russia will veto the crap out of them.
In the second video the yellow-armbanded guys are shooting at protesters.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
I don't get how my previous post was funny mdeceiver, I just want to know who they are.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;43985250]Yup, EU just heating the things up (as I said in the other thread). They support and don't care about rebelions and protests as long as it's not happening in their country. Occupy Wallstreet, Paris riots, London riots, all of those have been brutally crushed and everyone carried on with their lives. Why are they blaming this exclusively on government when it was the protesters who broke the truce? And are they implying that (some, not all) these protesters are completely peaceful and that police started shooting at them for no reason?[/QUOTE]
What the hell are you talking about? Occupy wasn't crushed in any way, the camps were there for months and the governments although annoyed, let them. No force whatsoever was used. There just wasn't enough people to support the political motive for Occupy... that's why it died out, and that's why it should die out. Not because of goverment is forcing things to die out.
The protestors in Ukraine didnt break the truce in any way... the majority was standing on the square doing nothing. Some agressive asshole throwing a molotov during the truce, doesn't make the entire entity of protestors free-game.
Just the one person who threw the molotov is in the wrong then, not the whole group.
The same way protestors/rioters/revolutionists shouldn't kill or harm cops because some cop harmed a protestor. Just the single offending cop who harmed the protestor is in the wrong....
Don't generalize so much.
The right-winged protestors are extremely visible, but that doesn't mean that left and /or neutral aren't also involved in the protests. Right-Wing extremists with swastika-flags are easy to identify, but if you see a group of people, can you distinguish someone who is republican from someone who is a democrat?
[B]There is no political ideology in control of this protest/uprising...it's the people as a collective. That's why it should be taken seriously by the government, and why, in my opinion they should get the hell out of office.[/B]
[B]My own opinion of the EU or Russia or Putin doesn't matter in the slightest. The people of Ukraine are speaking, and their government is obliged to listen to them. If the government doesn't listen, then the people have the right to take what belongs to them, control over their own country and lifes.[/B]
[QUOTE=VOSK;43985422]In the second video the yellow-armbanded guys are shooting at protesters.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
I don't get how my previous post was funny mdeciver, I just want to know who they are.[/QUOTE]
Because you all deny the existenceof extremist elements then deny that they are armed then when. I say it sounds awful people disagree. Now there is proof and you seem baffled.
snip
[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;43985392]I'd be perfectly happy if a major EU power stepped in and sent in their military WITHOUT UN approval, because if they asked the UN first i'd almost guarantee that Russia will veto the crap out of them.[/QUOTE]
Understandable but foolish.
For global peace and stability, you cannot act as such. Based on emotions.
Global stability and rest is currently achieved by creating a compris between the will of all and the will of some more present because they also have more to barter with. It's a good and effective system in itself, given that all parties will abide by the rules.
The guys with the yellow armbands are, from what info I've been reading, Ukrainian intelligence agents similar to the FSB or old KGB in the USSR.
There is a group, the Patriots of Ukraine, which is a psuedo-fascist paramilitary that uses yellow armbands also that's affiliated with Svoboda but that's not them. Their uniforms aren't so regular and their armbands are only on one side and have a woflsangel symbol:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/5pHagsg.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43985465]Because you all deny the existenceof extremist elements then deny that they are armed then when. I say it sounds awful people disagree. Now there is proof and you seem baffled.[/QUOTE]
Go look back at my posts, I never once denied that there were. I just didn't know who those guys were. I fully acknowledged that there are extremest elements out there. Calm down dude, Jesus.
snip
[QUOTE=Hikjaf;43985789]Why do police keep fighting in these situations? What motivates them?
How far driven do you have to be to kill people for whatever measly pay you get?[/QUOTE]
The police thinks the protesters are hooligans, also revenge since cops died also and some got horrible burns from molotov cocktails.
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43985846]The police thinks the protesters are hooligans, also revenge since cops died also and some got horrible burns from molotov cocktails.[/QUOTE]
I can understand that fully, but I do not understand how they cannot see thatthey are a part of the government that is ignoring the call for freedom and democracy. This is also in the interest of the police personally.
How can you, ten years from now, walk the same streets you once fatally shot protestors at with a clean conscience, knowing you are living of the fruits of their sacrifice.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43985884]I can understand that fully, but I do not understand how they cannot see thatthey are a part of the government that is ignoring the call for freedom and democracy. This is also in the interest of the police personally.
[B]How can you, ten years from now, [/B]walk the same streets you once fatally shot protestors at with a clean conscience, knowing you are living of the fruits of their sacrifice.[/QUOTE]
Maybe they will regret it then, but for now all the cops want is for this shitstorm to end. And they will end it if they can, by attacking those (the protesters) that killed their friends
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43985916]Maybe they will regret it then, but for now all the cops want is for this shitstorm to end. And they will end it if they can, by attacking those (the protesters) that killed their friends[/QUOTE]
There I disagree.
They can end it now, by resigning from duty, leaving their stations, or siding with the protestors.
Petty revenge gets nor them nor the protestors anywhere, it will only yield further escalation of the situation.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43986007]There I disagree.
They can end it now, by resigning from duty, leaving their stations, or siding with the protestors.
[/QUOTE]
You can not honestly expect police forces to drop their duty just like that. There wouldn't be much "police" going on anywhere in the world if that was the case.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43986007][B]There I disagree.
They can end it now, by resigning from duty, leaving their stations, or siding with the protestors.[/B]
Petty revenge gets nor them nor the protestors anywhere, it will only yield further escalation of the situation.[/QUOTE]
Uh..right.
Not only is Ukraine shit economically, but it's getting even worse, and you want guys that worked decades in the force to just leave. Mmmhmm
[QUOTE=gudman;43986070]You can not honestly expect police forces to drop their duty just like that. There wouldn't be much "police" going on anywhere in the world if that was the case.[/QUOTE]
Yes they can, they've done it before.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43986122]Uh..right.
Not only is Ukraine shit economically, but it's getting even worse, and you want guys that worked decades in the force to just leave. Mmmhmm[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure the people don't really care about getting money at this point and more about their freedom.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43986126]
I'm pretty sure the people don't really care about getting money at this point and more about their freedom.[/QUOTE]
The cops think the protesters are hooligans and they have families to feed. What freedom? You think the cops agree with the protesters? Lol no
Not confirmed - anecdotal data from two of my friends from Donetsk (eastern Ukraine)
Rumor has it, that internet and mobile communications will be shut off soon. ATM's and Banks are already not working.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;43986126]Yes they can, they've done it before.[/QUOTE]
Which means nothing, because they're not supposed to. From their point of view, it's just some individuals breaking laws all over the place. It's not "the people", it's individuals who disrupt order, order that police is there to protect and enforce. Berkut has nothing against people, and they do not protect government that is currently in the office. They protect The government. If opposition gets into the office one way or the other, they would count on the very same people for protection. And no one would count on those who defected from previous government.
[QUOTE=gudman;43986070]You can not honestly expect police forces to drop their duty just like that. There wouldn't be much "police" going on anywhere in the world if that was the case.[/QUOTE]
What I am saying is... the citizens granted the government the right to govern as long as they abide by the democratic rules that have been codified in the constitution.
Now.. the government isn't abiding by constitutional law, the people are revoking the right to govern.
The government is refusing to give up that right, and the people are now taking back power forcefully, and they have full right to.
A country isn't owned by the government, it's owned by the people. The government is just there to make choices and decisions on behalf of the people. No more.
This is not a situation where police is doing good, therefor the police could and in my opinion should step away. This is ofcourse different in any other situation, where the government is democratically and rightfully in place.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43986007]There I disagree.
They can end it now, by resigning from duty, leaving their stations, or siding with the protestors.
Petty revenge gets nor them nor the protestors anywhere, it will only yield further escalation of the situation.[/QUOTE]
You're taking too narrow of a view of the situation. What happens to the police and their families if they defect and the revolution fails? The situation is not as black and white as you think it is, and it's kind of insulting to the people on the ground putting their lives on the line for what they believe in for you to assume it is so black and white
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43986122]Uh..right.
Not only is Ukraine shit economically, but it's getting even worse, and you want guys that worked decades in the force to just leave. Mmmhmm[/QUOTE]
Yeah this isn't personal or anything, but that mentality that you are displaying is what is part of the problem in Ukraine as well.
"I know what I'm doing is wrong, but man if I quit then I won't have a job no more"
What about the protestors who have been fighting for freedom and their rights. They didn't leave the protest to go to their jobs. They thought of the greater good and believed in defending their ideals, rights and freedom.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=gudman;43986268]Which means nothing, because they're not supposed to. From their point of view, it's just some individuals breaking laws all over the place. It's not "the people", it's individuals who disrupt order, order that police is there to protect and enforce. Berkut has nothing against people, and they do not protect government that is currently in the office. They protect The government. If opposition gets into the office one way or the other, they would count on the very same people for protection. And no one would count on those who defected from previous government.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. The police are fully aware of what is going on. It's impossible they are not.
Throughout Ukraine government buildings are being overrun by revolutionists, and the Ukrainian television is talking about this constantly...
In no way are the cops mistaking this for a persistant football riot.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=KmartSqrl;43986355]You're taking too narrow of a view of the situation. What happens to the police and their families if they defect and the revolution fails? The situation is not as black and white as you think it is, and it's kind of insulting to the people on the ground putting their lives on the line for what they believe in for you to assume it is so black and white[/QUOTE]
I see you point, and have considered it obviously.
But I don't think "I would like to end this situation, by giving the people their way, but what if it fails, so I'll just actively keep opposing it then".
"Ill make it worse, because if I make it better and it fails I'll be fucked". Wouldn't be able to justify that to myself. The longer they keep up that way of thinking, the more people will get hurt. Will it be police officers, protestors, straight-up nazi's, press or families of any of the afore mentioned.
Don't suggest the police are 'doing what they believe in'. I'm not buying that for a second. They are following orders because they are afraid of what will happen if they don't. They are therefor allowing the 'tyranny' for lack of a better word to continue.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
