[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43987329]100% of Ukrainians are pro eu. Based on my sample of 1.[/QUOTE]
Missed the point completely...
I never said everyone in Ukraine is pro-revolution.
I've said from the beginning, a large enough portion of the population is pro-revolution for the government to be calling new elections. If they don't, then the people have to right to force an election through revolution.
Don't be dumb.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=gudman;43987366]And at the same time "all police are just scared" is completely okay and is not a fallacy. Based on absolutely nothing.[/QUOTE]
Where did I do that.. please quote me and point it out.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=gudman;43987345]You tried to summarise an entire group of people without any fucking clue, who do you think you are.[/QUOTE]
Again where did I do that.
Don't put words in my mouth...
I'm not saying stuff like that, because it would be logically and rationally impossible to defend.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43987372]
Where did I do that.. please quote me and point it out.[/QUOTE]
Uh, at the top of the page there's a quote. From the guy you [b]just[/b] quoted.
This one.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43986368]
Don't suggest the police are 'doing what they believe in'. I'm not buying that for a second. They are following orders because they are afraid of what will happen if they don't. They are therefor allowing the 'tyranny' for lack of a better word to continue.[/QUOTE]
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43987372]
I'm not saying stuff like that, because it would be logically and rationally impossible to defend.[/QUOTE]
Well fuck.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43987307]I've talked to the same Ukranians.
As I said, I've got family there.
I've had regular skype calls with Ukraine, and have spoken with my uncle and aunt who are opposed to the revolution, mostly because [B]they fear what is to come, especially from Russia. They are not against getting rid of the government, but they are just afraid of consequences.[/B][/QUOTE]
I can easily see the justification behind that, but I think that a rational solution for removing Ukraine's corrupted government is long gone, sadly. I guess the only solution for people in their situation is to try to stay safe
[QUOTE=gudman;43987416]Uh, at the top of the page there's a quote. From the guy you [b]just[/b] quoted.
This one.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
Well fuck.[/QUOTE]
Ah I see, I'm sorry. I ment to say "I don't believe [B]ALL[/B] of the police are doing what they believe in"
I apologize. I didn't mean to claim all the police are just scared.
The division between pro and counter-revolutionist is the same as in the other parts of the population since the police are ofcourse a part of the population.
Claiming all the police are pro-revolution, but afraid to speak out is nonsense indeed. Didn't mean to say that.
[QUOTE=gudman;43987416]Uh, at the top of the page there's a quote. From the guy you [b]just[/b] quoted.
This one.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
Well fuck.[/QUOTE]
Even if what he said isn't 100% accurate, it's far from wrong. A lot of police really are following orders out of fear, and that's not a baseless assumption if you look at the protests in Egypt.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43987469]Ah I see, I'm sorry. I ment to say "I don't believe [B]ALL[/B] of the police are doing what they believe in"
I apologize. I didn't mean to claim all the police are just scared.
The division between pro and counter-revolutionist is the same as in the other parts of the population since the police are ofcourse a part of the population.
Claiming all the police are pro-revolution, but afraid to speak out is nonsense indeed. Didn't mean to say that.[/QUOTE]
It's okay now that you've explained what you meant.
[QUOTE=wewt!;43987482]Even if what he said isn't 100% accurate, it's far from wrong. A lot of police really are following orders out of fear, and that's not a baseless assumption if you look at the protests in Egypt.[/QUOTE]
where is your data
[QUOTE=gudman;43987492]It's okay now that you've explained what you meant.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I thought you were an asshole for putting words in my mouth that I didn't say, and definently didn't mean but as it turns out I left out the word "all". Big difference indeed.
All is well. I'd like the discussion and conversation to continue, because it's refreshing to see both sides of the argument. At least for me it is.
[QUOTE=wewt!;43987482]Even if what he said isn't 100% accurate, it's far from wrong. A lot of police really are following orders out of fear, and that's not a baseless assumption if you look at the protests in Egypt.[/QUOTE]
And how about we don't look at protests in Egypt to make assumptions about Ukraine, which is a diffirent thing entirely? Diffirent culture, diffirent situation, diffirent history of conflict? The only similarity there is that both have civil unrest.
Look, I am not making counter-assumptions, I do not doubt there're people who follow orders out of fear. It's just not all of them - first, and second - Egypt is a bad example because it's a bad example to base any assumptions on. Everything else, fine by me.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43987506]where is your data[/QUOTE]
We're not saying it's 100% true.
He said it's [B]not a baseless assumption[/B] given protests in Egypt, and I personally see reason to suspect following out of fear especially given the Russian patronage and interference. These countries might be officially independant, de facto they're not or at least not completely.
Furthermore in former USSR countries, you fear the man who's in charge of you, especially if you're working in a government agency / institution. Believe me.. it's quite different than it is here.
Maybe Gudman can shine some light on it, since he's from Russia but my family originally from Bulgaria (of which some now live in Ukraine) have told me many stories that took place even in recent years that sketched things out pretty well.
The man above you can make or break you, sometimes literally.
[QUOTE=gudman;43987555]And how about we don't look at protests in Egypt to make assumptions about Ukraine, which is a diffirent thing entirely? Diffirent culture, diffirent situation, diffirent history of conflict? The only similarity there is that both have civil unrest.
Look, I am not making counter-assumptions, [B]I do not doubt there're people who follow orders out of fear. It's just not all of them[/B] - first, and second - Egypt is a bad example because it's a bad example to base any assumptions on. Everything else, fine by me.[/QUOTE]
That is the only point I'm trying to make.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43987506]where is your data[/QUOTE]
My data is the damn protests in Egypt, I listed that specifically because it was hugely followed on Facepunch so I assumed most people here would be familiar with them, if you're not then well shit, sorry but I don't remember all of the dozens news sources that were aggregated for information on here back then. Power through fear is not an unknown concept, and assuming that some of the police in Ukraine are just a bunch of young guys shitting their pants and doing what they're told is not that stupid of a thought.
I will say though, just how many [I]are[/I] like that is another matter, in Egypt it was the majority as they were known to be just a bunch of lower class 18 year olds. In Ukraine the percentage is undoubtably smaller, but by how much I don't know.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43987570]We're not saying it's 100% true.
He said it's not a baseless assumption given protests in Egypt, and especially not given the Russian patronage and interference. These countries might be officially independant, de facto they're not.
In former USSR countries, you fear the man who's in charge of you, especially if you're working in a government agency / institution. Believe me.. it's quite different than it is here.
Maybe Gudman can shine some light on it, since he's from Russia but my family originally from Bulgaria (of which some now live in Ukraine) have told me many stories that took place even in recent years that sketched things out pretty well.[/QUOTE]
You say you want to argue logically and rationally yet start with "We're not saying it's 100% true."
Then this "Believe me"
Then offer some anecdotal evidence.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43987605]You say you want to argue logically and rationally yet start with "We're not saying it's 100% true."
Then this "Believe me"
Then offer some anecdotal evidence.[/QUOTE]
Why do you even reply?
Logic and rationality have nothing to do with evidence.
It's a set of rules and value that determine how to behave and conduct within the formation of hypothesis and theories.
To say something is not 100% accurate is in no way unrational, or unlogical.
Believe me, is, in spoken language, a way to emphasize a message.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, no, but we're not writing a scientific theory here, we're having a discussion. If you're not interested in having one, can I then kindly ask you to fuck off?
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43987652]
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, no, but we're not writing a scientific theory here, we're having a discussion. If you're not interested in having one,[/quote]
I are having a discussion and I intend to be part of it. In a discussion it helps the legitimacy of your argument to construct rational arguments. .
[quote]can I then kindly ask you to fuck off?[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry if my call out has offended you. I meant not offence or ill toward you.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43987605]You say you want to argue logically and rationally yet start with "We're not saying it's 100% true."
Then this "Believe me"
Then offer some anecdotal evidence.[/QUOTE]
We're saying, [I]it's not unlikely, it's a possibility.
[/I]You can't know much apart from anecdotes and direct stories from people with links to people in Ukraine for now, because if you haven't noticed there's a shitstorm going on in there and getting accurate news is difficult, most information we get is from either news which are struggling to get accurate info themselves, photos, videos and fucking [I]tweets[/I] dude. So just sit down and [I]wait[/I] for accurate information, till then you're going to have to be a bit more open minded and not as pedantic. Loosen up a bit.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43987570]
Maybe Gudman can shine some light on it, since he's from Russia but my family originally from Bulgaria (of which some now live in Ukraine) have told me many stories that took place even in recent years that sketched things out pretty well.[/QUOTE]
What why would I know what happens in Ukraine. I can only say that there're no indication of my country preparing to be directly involved in the conflict, and I find it unlikely to happen. The whole Crimea debacle is overblown by everyone, it's not like we're invading tomorrow or supplying some kind of "nsurgency" there, otherwise it would've leaked through the cracks somewhere at this point. It is and always has been a demonstration of political power, "look at us, we're influencial". Can't think of anything else. While Ukraine most definitely lies in my country's sphere of geopolitical interest, no one needs to actively pursue it at this point: much more can be lost than gained.
Our media is not of any indication, because there's no clear agenda or goal to be traced in their barking, it seems to be business as usual. I have some connections, and they all say that no specific "directions" have been given as of yet. Putin is not exactly known for his political subtlety, but if he says that Russia is going to stay away from getting directly involved in Ukraine, it has to be true. He stated that rather loudly multiple times and made sure it was understood. It also gives some ground for speculation that Yanukovych's government has lost support and is expandable. Might be a result of some kind of behind the scenes negotiations with other parties involved, a wild guess.
[QUOTE=wewt!;43986629]You're right yeah, maybe a mod should rename the thread? I'd rather see all the news being aggregated in this thread personally, though it depends on how everybody else feels about that.[/QUOTE]
I'll take care of it in a bit, any suggestions as to what we should do for the name?
[QUOTE=dai;43987757]I'll take care of it in a bit, any suggestions as to what we should do for the name?[/QUOTE]
<3 u
I can't think of anything, if nobody can think of anything just replace "two people shot dead" with "[Now Ukraine protests megathread]" or something
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43987702]I are having a discussion and I intend to be part of it. In a discussion it helps the legitimacy of your argument to construct rational arguments. .
[/QUOTE]
As I said Oliver, saying "We're not claiming 100% accuracy" is in no way irrational.
Nor is the use of anecdotes... I even reserved claiming my definitive conclusion untill after giving Gudman the chance to shine some light upon it.
What more do you want?
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43987826]As I said Oliver, saying "We're not claiming 100% accuracy" is in no way irrational.
Nor is the use of anecdotes... I even reserved claiming my definitive conclusion untill after giving Gudman the chance to shine some light upon it.
What more do you want?[/QUOTE]
Would well structured and logical arguements be too much to ask?
edit: and please don't stalk me. Not mega cool.
[QUOTE=gudman;43987746]What why would I know what happens in Ukraine. I can only say that there're no indication of my country preparing to be directly involved in the conflict, and I find it unlikely to happen. The whole Crimea debacle is overblown by everyone, it's not like we're invading tomorrow or supplying some kind of "nsurgency" there, otherwise it would've leaked through the cracks somewhere at this point. It is and always has been a demonstration of political power, "look at us, we're influencial". Can't think of anything else. While Ukraine most definitely lies in my country's sphere of geopolitical interest, no one needs to actively pursue it at this point: much more can be lost than gained.
Our media is not of any indication, because there's no clear agenda or goal to be traced in their barking, it seems to be business as usual. I have some connections, and they all say that no specific "directions" have been given as of yet. Putin is not exactly known for his political subtlety, but if he says that Russia is going to stay away from getting directly involved in Ukraine, it has to be true. He stated that rather loudly multiple times and made sure it was understood. It also gives some ground for speculation that Yanukovych's government has lost support and is expandable. Might be a result of some kind of behind the scenes negotiations with other parties involved, a wild guess.[/QUOTE]
Very interesting, thanks for posting.
I am wondering as well... I know Yanukvych and Putin are good friends, from what I've heard, but wouldn't it be much more reasonable and easy for Putin to say "I'm sorry Yanukovych, your time here is up, I want you to throw in the towel", especially now that Putin is having his little playtoy "The Winter Olympics" where he enjoys a lot of media attention.
I figure he can't really appreciate the newscoverage of the Olympics being overcast or at least blemished by news of revolution in the Ukraine and talk of possible involvement of Russia / Putin.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43987826]As I said Oliver, saying "We're not claiming 100% accuracy" is in no way irrational.
Nor is the use of anecdotes... I even reserved claiming my definitive conclusion untill after giving Gudman the chance to shine some light upon it.
What more do you want?[/QUOTE]
Stalking him on the internet then addressing him by his first name to scare him, wow cool man
how can I be that cool too?
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43987843]Would well structured and logical arguements be too much to ask?
edit: and please don't stalk me. Not mega cool.[/QUOTE]
I think you don't really know what those words mean. Please cease and desist, I'm not going to ignore you completely but your attempts are sabotaging this discussion I will no longer respond to.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43987843][B]Would well structured and logical arguements be too much to ask?[/B]
edit: and please don't stalk me. Not mega cool.[/QUOTE]
I think you're just being unreasonable now.
Also don't know what you mean with the second thing so I checked your profile and saw people giving you comments over this topic, which is ridiculous :v:
edit: oh the name thing, well now you're both being unreasonable
[QUOTE=wewt!;43987928]I think you're just being unreasonable now.
Also don't know what you mean with the second thing so I checked your profile and saw people giving you comments over this topic, which is ridiculous :v:[/QUOTE]
No I called him Oliver, because I tried to rightclick his name to view his profile, then clicked "search for on Google" and saw his DeviantArt where he mentions his name.
I did not post on his profile, and it is ridiculous.
As much as I think mcdeceiver is being a bit of a prick at the moment... if you've got something to say to him, do it here, as long as it contributes to the discussion.
Edit://
Google, now known as stalking :downs:
I think it's in the best interest of this thread that this discussion doesn't turn toxic guys
edit: blergh I just realized I sound like I'm backseat modding, what I mean is guys stop being rude
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43987946]No I called him Oliver, because I tried to rightclick his name to view his profile, then clicked "search for on Google" and saw his DeviantArt where he mentions his name.
I did not post on his profile, and it is ridiculous.
As much as I think mcdeceiver is being a bit of a prick at the moment... if you've got something to say to him, do it here, as long as it contributes to the discussion.[/QUOTE]
You've been personal several times now and tried to get information on me for god knows what.
Please stop.
Keep this is a discussion about Ukraine.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=wewt!;43987961]I think it's in the best interest of this thread that this discussion doesn't turn toxic guys[/QUOTE]
lets do it.
What do you people think are the options for the opposition?
Back to the topic of Ukraine yes please.
Sorry for calling you Oliver, ment no harm by it and in no way ment to 'scare' you or be a badass.
A child could google your username, as well as mine.
Well, in some way it's a good thing we have time to argue over petty things, since that means Kiev is quiet.
Is anyone watching the streams right now, if so, which one(s)?
I'm on RT and pretty much nothing is happening. There's not even any fire that I can see.
Although occassionally some light pops up in the background illuminating a huge smokescreen.
[url]http://rt.com/on-air/ukraine-central-kiev-protest/[/url]
Well I might as well post these videos from the other threads for those interested who haven't seen them:
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;43985629]The gun does sound like a bb/pallet gun.
[video=youtube;zwqfrq43lK0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwqfrq43lK0[/video][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;43985490]not liveleak
[video=youtube;n2PTeUBCPAQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2PTeUBCPAQ[/video]
Both are using snipers
this is RT, it's obviously bias, they're not going to show policemen shooting protesters.[/QUOTE]
gore [url]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg8z8nDCYAAbz4E.jpg[/url]
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