Tanks are heading to Kyiv: two people shot dead - Polidicks

Then the opposition wins the election and get mad because of the reduced power they got from it. :v:

Not sure this will be enough. Amongst the protesters is a real feeling of having been led down by the opposition as well.

It's a sign that the Government is starting to loose control. I mean, it was already pretty obvious but the fact they are now burning documents, loosing very strategic areas such as power plants, and are offering more and more to the protesters makes me think they are rapidly loosing control. [editline]21st February 2014[/editline] Hell, I'm pretty sure the Lviv army garrison defected as well and refuse to do anything against the protesters.

[QUOTE=VOSK;43994770]It's a sign that the Government is starting to loose control. I mean, it was already pretty obvious but the fact they are now burning documents, loosing very strategic areas such as power plants, and are offering more and more to the protesters makes me think they are rapidly loosing control. [editline]21st February 2014[/editline] Hell, I'm pretty sure the Lviv army garrison defected as well and refuse to do anything against the protesters.[/QUOTE] The government is making an annocunement today. There will be an election, the presisdent will have reduced power, the opposition with the gov will control till the election, the opposition have agreed and called for ceasefire. The only ones who would break this ceasefire are the ones who don't want peace and don't want democracy.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43994823]The government is making an annocunement today. There will be an election, the presisdent will have reduced power, the opposition with the gov will control till the election, the opposition have agreed and called for ceasefire. The only ones who would break this ceasefire are the ones who don't want peace and don't want democracy.[/QUOTE] Do you think the President and the government will stick to their side of the deal?

[QUOTE=VOSK;43994840]Do you think the President and the government will stick to their side of the deal?[/QUOTE] most likely?

[QUOTE=VOSK;43994840]Do you think the President and the government will stick to their side of the deal?[/QUOTE] Do you think its a ruse to buy time for them to use their protester killing super weapon of oppression? Yes I think they will keep to their side of the deal. edit - provided the peace is kept.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lGLA-cnsxg[/url] New documentary, with footage showing both sides of the story supposedly. Watching now! [B]Edit://[/B] It's from RT, and it shows. The documentary is very much in the business of emphasizing how much the cops are victims. They also say that the protestors are violent animals, who just threaten, hurt and maim the cops. I don't agree. Not a word so far has been said about the protestors rights being smothered by repressive law or their legitimate cry for political change being ignored. It's pretty much Russian perspective alone, with wild instigations and accusations of how the USA is funding every single protestor there. This is bullshit.

[quote=bbc]Ukrainian broadcaster ICTV said it had seen a copy of the agreement, which included three main proposals: The 2004 constitution will be restored within 48 hours, and a national unity government will be formed within 10 days Constitutional reform balancing the powers of president, government and parliament will be started immediately and completed by September A presidential election will be held after the new constitution is adopted but no later than December 2014[/quote]

The way I see the deal between opposition and powers is... not as bright. It depends on what is going to happen next. The reasonable side of the opposition ideally would really just stop protesting and start doing something more smart now - creating parties, electing leaders among themselves etc. in order to compete in the presidental and parliamentary elections. Standing there guarding the place won't do any good at this point. No point counting on Klitschko and the company, they really don't seem like a good leaders. The unreasonable part, hopefully, realises that there's nothing left to be gained and stands down. Their leaders I'd like to see behind the bars, but if no more violence will commence, then it's sorta fine by me. As for the government, they really should just lay low and pretend to not be there up until reelections and then participate in them, because it's inevitable anyway. That's the best case scenario I see at this point, that is if opposition won't succed in pressing for any more concessions. Any excessive moves might just spark shit again.

[QUOTE=Pr0fane;43994877] [B]Edit://[/B] It's from RT, and it shows. The documentary is very much in the business of emphasizing how much the cops are victims. They also say that the protestors are violent animals, who just threaten, hurt and maim the cops. I don't agree. Not a word so far has been said about the protestors rights being smothered by repressive law or their legitimate cry for political change being ignored. It's pretty much Russian perspective alone, with wild instigations and accusations of how the USA is funding every single protestor there. This is bullshit.[/QUOTE] Good ol' RT.

the whole vote deal feels like it could be irrelevant, no? Everyone who's out protesting could be misinformed or purely incapable of leaving where they are to vote without losing ground, there could even be limits and arrests if you try voting after falling victim to the crazy orwellian thing where they notified you that you've been marked a political dissident via the phone system triangulating people who were at the main Kiev protest (and others?)

[QUOTE=dai;43997238]the whole vote deal feels like it could be irrelevant, no? Everyone who's out protesting could be misinformed or purely incapable of leaving where they are to vote without losing ground, there could even be limits and arrests if you try voting after falling victim to the crazy orwellian thing where they notified you that you've been marked a political dissident via the phone system triangulating people who were at the main Kiev protest (and others?)[/QUOTE] The point of the election might actually lay in the fact that it will take months if not years to arrange things. A country-wide election and constitution change can take as long as required in East-Europe. The date of the election can be speculated to wait for the protesters to calm down, the momentum to vanish and the enthusiasm to run out. Then the president can build a solid support base (which he, by the way, already has: around 60% Ukrainians support him, so he can win the vote even if his plan doesn't work) and accuse protesters of everything, try to remain in power. Don't look at me like that. I am not a conspirancy theorist. Maybe the plan isn't so deep. But Yanukovich wouldn't be himself if he didn't try to trick people and remain in power.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;43997411]The point of the election might actually lay in the fact that it will take months if not years to arrange things. A country-wide election and constitution change can take as long as required in East-Europe. The date of the election can be speculated to wait for the protesters to calm down, the momentum to vanish and the enthusiasm to run out. Then the president can build a solid support base (which he, by the way, already has: around 60% Ukrainians support him, so he can win the vote even if his plan doesn't work) and accuse protesters of everything, try to remain in power. Don't look at me like that. I am not a conspirancy theorist. Maybe the plan isn't so deep. But Yanukovich wouldn't be himself if he didn't try to trick people and remain in power.[/QUOTE] It very well might be this. But again, best case scenario for now is to stop with the madness and prepare for legitimate political fight to resume. For the following months Yanukovich won't do shit if he knows what's good for him, and by the time he might start forgetting what happened in these couple of months, he would face a strong political force with leaders who know what they're doing and have large amounts of active* people to rely on. *by this I do not mean fucktards with bircks, molotovs and hunting rifles, obviously.

[QUOTE=gudman;43998013]It very well might be this. But again, best case scenario for now is to stop with the madness and prepare for legitimate political fight to resume. For the following months Yanukovich won't do shit if he knows what's good for him, and by the time he might start forgetting what happened in these couple of months, he would face a strong political force with leaders who know what they're doing and have large amounts of active* people to rely on. *by this I do not mean fucktards with bircks, molotovs and hunting rifles, obviously.[/QUOTE] I too agree that now the carnage should stop while they can stop it because a chance to calm the radicals doesn't appear every day.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/OJlNEqs.png[/IMG] bad news [editline]21st February 2014[/editline] tomorrow shit will go down

[QUOTE=Turing;43999165]-horrible news- bad news [editline]21st February 2014[/editline] tomorrow shit will go down[/QUOTE] I sincerely hope all of the sane people there will leave. [b]These[/b] people should be arrested or otherwise incapacitated or they will drag the country into a civil war.

I have a feeling Euro maiden won't stop the violence until their agenda is full filled. They don't want an election they just want power. They could be calling for peace instead they preach doom and violence.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43999330]I have a feeling Euro maiden won't stop the violence until their agenda is full filled. They don't want an election they just want power. They could be calling for peace instead they preach doom and violence.[/QUOTE] tbh people just want Yanuk out of the office they cant stand being ruled by him for at least 10 more months

[QUOTE=Turing;43999359]tbh people just want Yanuk out of the office they cant stand being ruled by him for at least 10 more months[/QUOTE] There's not much that can be done about it at the moment though. You can kick him out probably, but what then? Who's going to lead. Rada? Doubt it, when same people can vote in dreadful legislation and then suddenly call for peace it's never a good sign. Who's going to be the new government? When can the elections be held - it's a long work that can't be done just like that - and who can be voted in? What's going to happen to broken as is economy during that time - where will you get the money from on everything that needs repair, for all the people who need help, and then elections, restoring the logistics etc.? It's only logical that Yanukovich would remain president for the time being with high profile opposition members in the new government, and under watchful eye of the people who can gather up in less than a day. It's the way political leaders of the opposition agreed on, not without a reason. And now right extremists are playing on people's feelings towards the president to get the upper hand and completely hijack the protests to turn them their way.

Gudman had some good realistic insight into this. You can't have him stand down. Those who took over would be there but not voted in. Everyone in three east would be unhappy and you would end up with a whole brew set of protests.

My assumptions are merely based on reasons political leaders of Maidan have given on why they pushed for this kind of agreement. Thay have a very strong point, and there were European foreign ministers and diplomats observing it all on negotiations. Seems like a pretty reasonable and competent bunch if you ask me, they wouldn't just blow it like that. I'd trust them. This morning people were happy that the bloodshed is finally over, and now they're being skewed by murderous power-hungry fuckers.

Did everyone's opinion of the protesters and maidan change over the past few hours? It seems everyone just wants them to stop now.

[QUOTE=VOSK;43999723]Did everyone's opinion of the protesters and maidan change over the past few hours? It seems everyone just wants them to stop now.[/QUOTE] The situation as a whole also changed im the past few hours.

[QUOTE=VOSK;43999723]Did everyone's opinion of the protesters and maidan change over the past few hours? It seems everyone just wants them to stop now.[/QUOTE] It's complicated. The protesters as a crowd feel that the deal does not do enough, or doesn't really fix enough. The opposition leaders themselves are just politicians who sort of nominated themselves to speak on behalf of the protesters, and there's some very clear sentiment that what they want is not what the majority wants. This means that the opposition leaders, who have been trying to work out a peaceful negotiation, are now in the backseat of an armed and dangerous mob who want complete deposition of the standing government, and a lot of other things. A lot of people hear "mob" and say that's a bad thing, with some good reason. So people want the violence to stop, but the mob does not, because they feel the negotiation process favors the government. It's like holding a man with a gun down, with a knife to his throat, and then he says "Well, can't we all just get along?" Sure, you could, but common sense says there is something wrong about letting him get up.

At the moment the deal proposed keeps current prez in power until the next election, and the mob wants him out [I]now.[/I]

[video=youtube;Jeq8Pq-l1uI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jeq8Pq-l1uI[/video] intercepted communications between snipers It's hard to translate. The phrases are terse and often indistinct. Here I tried to translate a bit, it's something like the first four minutes: "Attention, general information. Does everyone hear me?" "[Indistinct] plus." "Velik plus." "[Indistinct] plus." "Zero, everyone hears you." "[Indistinct], do you hear?" "Yeah." "The information is as follows: Attention to the Grushevskaya street, prepare to work, if there is movement with weapons, report and work. Berkut is preparing to advance (?), we'll be covering. Roger that?" [A list of call signs saying "plus".] [Indintinct] "Listen, we only see Hotel Ukraine from here, maybe we should move up to your level?" "Soon we'll open the windows and move forward, until then we're observing what we see. Listen and look. To the left, two shots, some movement, the upper windows are open, observe carefully. Adjust 16 mil (?) and prepare to work. Hotel Ukraine the base, the roof of the building and the high elevation points are a priority, Grushevskaya street - the ones to the right of Velik observe it. Roger that?" [call sign pluses] "Everyone, he's on the sheet metal roof. Opening fire." "Fire directly at the barricades, to the right of Hotel Ukraine." "Who fired? We don't work on that one on the roof, he has no weapon." "Guys, direct the spotter, he should spot that corner. Observing." "What spotter? We don't have one." "The roof of the yellow building." [Indistinct] "[Somebody] left. Somebody worked on him, not us." "Heron, Heron, about our associates, do we have any kind of interaction with others like us?" "So far we only have mobile interaction." "It's just we had better not see them by mistake." "[Indistinct] to me, with us or from behind." "Heron, on the cinema there was a spotter, there was a shot at him somewhere from the right." "I saw that, I saw that." "Everybody, Miron 35." "35." "The green dome, 100 farther, the roof of the building, a little to the left." "Looks like it." "Minus, they're gone." "Under that sign there are two people." "One of them has ammunition." "Observing, looking for weapons. Distance?" "376. No weapons thus far." "General information, people with weapons might start moving along the Grushevskaya street." [Indistinct] "He's dead!" (?) "Quickly down, we're moving out." [Indistinct] "Where are the people?" [editline]21st February 2014[/editline] from reddit

More closeup footage from yesterday, it is insane how the police keeps shooting at people obviously trying to help wounded people, watch at the 10:30 mark [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvj8F_Br4M[/media]

[QUOTE=Niklas;43999941]More closeup footage from yesterday, it is insane how the police keeps shooting at people obviously trying to help wounded people, watch at the 10:30 mark [/QUOTE] Watching that one guy just lying behind the tree, already bleeding and crying out for help take another bullet right through the chest for no reason... jesus christ That presumably lone sniper killed like 15 people alone in this video

[QUOTE=Niklas;43999941]More closeup footage from yesterday, it is insane how the police keeps shooting at people obviously trying to help wounded people, watch at the 10:30 mark [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvj8F_Br4M[/media][/QUOTE] That video is quite revealing, thankyou so much for posting.