[QUOTE=sgman91;49556521]The large majority of US citizens have decent insurance that they're happy with.[/QUOTE]
Except for like 29,000,000 without insurance, and millions of others under insured or barely affording premiums & copays.
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;49556535]Except for like 29,000,000 without insurance, and millions of others under insured or barely affording premiums & copays.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, "large majority." The stats back that claim up. When Gallup polled people before Obamacare something like 84% of people said that they thought their healthcare was good or excellent.
[QUOTE=Selek;49556513]Sometimes the US just seems to alien to me. How can somebody sincerely believe that slavery comparison when it's never been a problem in the rest of the West (and other countries)?
Unrelated to the video, I can't fathom the fact that the US considers itself the greatest country in the world when we got people like JumpinJackFlash being forced to do something that you should only have to do if you're in a warzone with no access to a doctor. Another friend of mine has frequent problems with his toe and they can literally not afford to get him to a doctor so he always has to self-operate on it.
Like how is this even a thing? Are so many Americans masochistic that they'd prefer to spend the rest of their lives in debt if they e.g. accidentally shoot their foot off with one of their guns rather than have confidence that if they get hurt, they won't have to worry about living comfortably afterwards? Somebody help me understand :([/QUOTE]
Marx was shockingly good at explaining it.
In the United States it boils down to this notion that, if you work hard enough, you can be one of the elite. One of the wealthy. You can be the bourgeoisie. Which is, of course, generally utter bullshit. Hard work has effectively zero bearing on your ultimate wealth status. People believe it though. People believe it to their core.
So, when you ask Americans to take action against the wealthy, you run into a problem. Americans have been taught to believe from an early age that they can be one of the wealthy, so they view it as screwing themselves over.
This, coupled with a variety of other issues, leads to some strange choices. The Republican party is predominately comprised of the people who would most benefit from additional government services, and yet they viciously fight against it.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49556392][video=youtube;YUXwDMqjC-A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUXwDMqjC-A[/video]
Healthcare is slavery.[/QUOTE]
You have the right to life and the pursuit of happiness but that doesn't mean that you're enslaving police officers because they provide that service to you.
If the US is so good why can't you guys get health care paid with taxes without issues? even my poor as fuck country has a decent healthcare, even after the budget cuts in health care.
[editline]18th January 2016[/editline]
health care should be a right regardless of income, you have been brainwashed to believe otherwise
[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49555359]This is what some people actually believe![/QUOTE]
My dad went to the hospital for a check-up after being involved in a minor car accident. 30 minute examination was billed $1100
Years back my mom took an ambulance ride that cost $800 alone.
I don't have to believe those quotes (the second one atleast, the first one is a little sensationalist) because I have second-hand experience with stories like that. I don't know why shit costs that much. The left says it's money-grubbing corporations and the right says it's government regulations and red tape. But I do know that stories about healthcare and health-associated costs like ambulances are absolutely true.
[editline]18th January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;49556545]Like I said, "large majority." The stats back that claim up. When Gallup polled people before Obamacare something like 84% of people said that they thought their healthcare was good or excellent.[/QUOTE]
I'm happy with my employers healthcare but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try alternatives to assist those who don't have access to similar plans.
[editline]18th January 2016[/editline]
If anything my experience of having good healthcare just makes me feel more strongly about it. I lost my mom to cancer almost two years ago now. She had employers healthcare and it was excellent but really that just makes me more sympathetic towards the people who don't have that. I couldn't possibly imagine how much more painful those last few months would have been if we had to worry about the costs of chemo, radiation, and hospice.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49554171]Quite a few wealthier people seem to view the poor as parasites.
Its a really strange thing[/QUOTE]
So much for the humanity of those rich.
[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49555359]This is what some people actually believe![/QUOTE]
The leg thing is an exaggeration, but the ambulance cost estimate is actually lower than the average. Depending on where you live in the US, an ambulance ride can cost you several thousands of dollars.
[editline]18th January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Handsome Matt;49556931]But you won't have to pay for health insurance then so it'll either come out around the same or cheaper...[/QUOTE]
Cheaper for everybody but the rich, and if those rich people are job providers with many employees, potentially cheaper still since they would no longer be expected to provide health insurance to employees.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49555373]Uh, have you ever received a bill for an ambulance ride?[/QUOTE]
Yeah but if you pay what they tell you without contesting it at all you're daft. You can usually talk it down to like 1/10th the price, it's only that high for the insurance.
I used to be a pilot, until the medical system failed me. I trained privately for the last two years of high school, and then joined the military so that I could rack up more flight hours than I could ever afford as a civilian, with the ultimate goal of a lifelong career in aviation.
Things went along fairly well until I transferred to Arizona, at a high altitude base, to begin flight training. I was doing perfectly on all the actual training, graduating second in my class, but I had a serious issue when it came to the physical testing. Numbness in my extremeties, chest pain, and severe shortness of breath was making it impossible for me to keep up during cardio training, like group runs. Worse, I was noticing these issues even during moderate activities, and sometimes during periods of rest. Concerned when I was still struggling as we approached the end of training, wherein I would be held back if I could not complete the run, I went to the doctor.
That doctor visit escalated into a year and a half-long medical evaluation, comprising regular and repeated tests, scans, and surgical consultations. It was discovered that I had a birth defect that had displaced my heart and severely stunted my lung function (40% reduced lung capacity and power), making functioning in high altitudes very demanding and dangerous. Thankfully, a relatively simple and highly effective surgery existed to correct the issue. It had been used for decades with a 98%+ success rate in correcting the physical abnormality, typically resulting in at least a partial recovery of lung function and an end to pressure-related chest pain from the displaced heart, so long as the surgery was performed within a certain age range.
Unfortunately, the military elected not to give it to me. I had completed my training, but because the health issues stemmed from a birth defect they saw no responsibility to repair the damages, and I was given a medical discharge with no additional benefits, and a lifelong restriction of operating aircraft. I was told I could pursue the surgery through private insurance if I so desired, and resume flying privately if it were successful.
This was before the Affordable Care Act went into full swing, and simply [I]finding[/I] an insurance provider who would accept me knowing about my condition proved difficult enough. I eventually had to settle on one with a very high monthly premium, a very high deductible, and under the explicit agreement that they would not cover healthcare costs relating to my birth defect. Useless. I looked into perhaps trying to finance the surgery privately, but due to the extensive recovery period (several weeks in the hospital, as much as six months off work) and the fact that I was an independent young 20-something from the lower class, it just wasn't possible.
By the time the healthcare laws had changed enough to make pursuing the surgery semi-feasible, I had outgrown the age range where there was a notable chance of recovering any lung function.
In a first world country, I discovered a birth defect was having serious impacts on my quality of life and threatened my entire future in aviation. A simple and proven surgery existed to correct the issue, but fixing it was time sensitive. A lack of access to proper insurance, and the sheer cost of our medical system, prevented me from getting necessary medical treatment. As a result, my life changed forever. I had to abandon my years of training as a pilot, start my adult life over from square one as a high school graduate with very little applicable work history (given that all my experience in aviation was now useless). To this day, my symptoms have only progressed. I am now regularly rocked with chest pain so severe I must stop everything I am doing and sit down until it passes. I can't even walk up a flight of stairs without getting winded.
I'm happy with my life right now, and I'm very happy with where it's going, but that never should have happened to me. I had a medical problem, a proven solution for that problem existed, and I wasn't able to receive treatment due to the cost of the procedure. Nobody should ever just be left in a horrible medical situation because they don't have enough money. Money should never be the barrier between being healthy enough to live your life or not.
The medical system in the United States is a failure. Too many others like me exist. Millions of people fall through the cracks, having to weigh the benefits of going to the hospital for an illness or injury compared to the risks of not when compared to the potential for lifelong medical debt. Nobody has taken drastic enough measures yet. The Affordable Care Act slapped a band-aid over some of the most offensive gaps, and indeed could have helped me dramatically had it been put into effect just a few years earlier, but it still only serves to uphold and reinforce the over-inflated medical monster that we've always feared, placing the fate of our medical service in the hands of for-profit insurance agencies. That is what needs to change. Medical treatment is a right and a necessity, not a privelege.
Any candidate who can promise sweeping overhauls of our medical system to lessen the insurance's role in the marletplace, thus driving down costs not only for consumers, but suppliers as well, is one who is going to be at the absolute top of my list. The medical system is one of the single biggest hurdles faced by the lower classes when it comes to upwards mobility, and thus fixing it will have a profound impact for them and us. Nobody loses in universal healthcare except the individuals who would have otherwise exploited it.
Go Bernie.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49554213]Ive always wondered.
How does your healthcare hold up if you need ICU+ongoing cancer treatment for a few months?
Is it REALLY free? And regardless if its free, is the care any good?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's free. Wouldn't call it the perfect system but it's a damned sight better than the mess the US has going on where if you need major treatment you end up in a wad of debt. Only thing I can immediately recall having to pay for is prescriptions, and even then they're still free if certain conditions are met (under 18s, students, ect).
[editline]18th January 2016[/editline]
To be honest I don't see a (non-political) reason for the Affordable Care Act to be pushed as a form of insurance in the first place. It would work a hell of a lot better if there was a universal health care system set up, and that can be funded just like the NHS over here is by drawing it out of taxes. Seriously, so what if you have to pay a little extra if it means you (and everyone else) will be able to receive vital treatment in a time of need. This laissez-faire attitude is a bunch of horseshit.
Ill always support public healthcare. Sure, wait times for some procedures could be quite a long time, but if you're fucking dying and it's treatable it'll save your life without putting you in crippling debt.
[QUOTE=paindoc;49555414]this appeared in the last sanders thread, but it was shit resolution, so i borrowed a higher res version from the guys website. This enumerates how the various proposals sanders puts forward would be paid for.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/v4bDxUt.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
I dunno, I really hate seeing these charts from both sides because it just screams "We could do this but understand I can do about a fifth of what I promise"
Like bernie or don't, he's gonna be fucked with a Republican control of both houses
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49557123]I used to be a pilot, until the medical system failed me. I trained privately for the last two years of high school, and then joined the military so that I could rack up more flight hours than I could ever afford as a civilian, with the ultimate goal of a lifelong career in aviation.
Things went along fairly well until I transferred to Arizona, at a high altitude base, to begin flight training. I was doing perfectly on all the actual training, graduating second in my class, but I had a serious issue when it came to the physical testing. Numbness in my extremeties, chest pain, and severe shortness of breath was making it impossible for me to keep up during cardio training, like group runs. Worse, I was noticing these issues even during moderate activities, and sometimes during periods of rest. Concerned when I was still struggling as we approached the end of training, wherein I would be held back if I could not complete the run, I went to the doctor.
That doctor visit escalated into a year and a half-long medical evaluation, comprising regular and repeated tests, scans, and surgical consultations. It was discovered that I had a birth defect that had displaced my heart and severely stunted my lung function (40% reduced lung capacity and power), making functioning in high altitudes very demanding and dangerous. Thankfully, a relatively simple and highly effective surgery existed to correct the issue. It had been used for decades with a 98%+ success rate in correcting the physical abnormality, typically resulting in at least a partial recovery of lung function and an end to pressure-related chest pain from the displaced heart, so long as the surgery was performed within a certain age range.
Unfortunately, the military elected not to give it to me. I had completed my training, but because the health issues stemmed from a birth defect they saw no responsibility to repair the damages, and I was given a medical discharge with no additional benefits, and a lifelong restriction of operating aircraft. I was told I could pursue the surgery through private insurance if I so desired, and resume flying privately if it were successful.
This was before the Affordable Care Act went into full swing, and simply [I]finding[/I] an insurance provider who would accept me knowing about my condition proved difficult enough. I eventually had to settle on one with a very high monthly premium, a very high deductible, and under the explicit agreement that they would not cover healthcare costs relating to my birth defect. Useless. I looked into perhaps trying to finance the surgery privately, but due to the extensive recovery period (several weeks in the hospital, as much as six months off work) and the fact that I was an independent young 20-something from the lower class, it just wasn't possible.
By the time the healthcare laws had changed enough to make pursuing the surgery semi-feasible, I had outgrown the age range where there was a notable chance of recovering any lung function.
In a first world country, I discovered a birth defect was having serious impacts on my quality of life and threatened my entire future in aviation. A simple and proven surgery existed to correct the issue, but fixing it was time sensitive. A lack of access to proper insurance, and the sheer cost of our medical system, prevented me from getting necessary medical treatment. As a result, my life changed forever. I had to abandon my years of training as a pilot, start my adult life over from square one as a high school graduate with very little applicable work history (given that all my experience in aviation was now useless). To this day, my symptoms have only progressed. I am now regularly rocked with chest pain so severe I must stop everything I am doing and sit down until it passes. I can't even walk up a flight of stairs without getting winded.
I'm happy with my life right now, and I'm very happy with where it's going, but that never should have happened to me. I had a medical problem, a proven solution for that problem existed, and I wasn't able to receive treatment due to the cost of the procedure. Nobody should ever just be left in a horrible medical situation because they don't have enough money. Money should never be the barrier between being healthy enough to live your life or not.
The medical system in the United States is a failure. Too many others like me exist. Millions of people fall through the cracks, having to weigh the benefits of going to the hospital for an illness or injury compared to the risks of not when compared to the potential for lifelong medical debt. Nobody has taken drastic enough measures yet. The Affordable Care Act slapped a band-aid over some of the most offensive gaps, and indeed could have helped me dramatically had it been put into effect just a few years earlier, but it still only serves to uphold and reinforce the over-inflated medical monster that we've always feared, placing the fate of our medical service in the hands of for-profit insurance agencies. That is what needs to change. Medical treatment is a right and a necessity, not a privelege.
Any candidate who can promise sweeping overhauls of our medical system to lessen the insurance's role in the marletplace, thus driving down costs not only for consumers, but suppliers as well, is one who is going to be at the absolute top of my list. The medical system is one of the single biggest hurdles faced by the lower classes when it comes to upwards mobility, and thus fixing it will have a profound impact for them and us. Nobody loses in universal healthcare except the individuals who would have otherwise exploited it.
Go Bernie.[/QUOTE]
That's damn tragic. Especially when you consider that USA is the richest and likely the most technologically advanced country on this planet. In Sweden money is never on your mind when you're getting a medical checkup or treatment. It just happens.
[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49555359]This is what some people actually believe![/QUOTE]
I was in a car accident 3 years ago and spent 4 days in the ICU with a ruptured spleen. No surgery or anything, just monitoring and a few percocet every 6 hours. Total cost? $176,853.48. The other driver's insurance policy covered $100,000, mine covered $50,000, and I covered the rest via a personal injury settlement in which I had to hire a lawyer to squeeze extra money from his insurance.
I was leftover with $24,000 from the settlement... but if I had lost that settlement, I would have been $26,000 in debt from an accident that genuinely didn't require a stay in the ICU and I didn't cause. Just food for thought.
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;49554212]Not really a fan. 2.2% tax increase on everyone. And those at the top get even higher tax increases. Granted no one cares about the very top but $250,000 household income isn't as amazing as you would think in big cities in America.
I'm all for increasing taxes but it has to be done smartly and federal taxes aren't. Even state taxes aren't. You should peg taxes to the cost of living of the area. This is going to make expensive places already harder to live in. And these expensive places are already predicted to get more expensive as more people move into cities.
And I doubt my wages would go up because employers would now have a set 6.2% tax on them for my health care...
Personally I think he should focus more on getting costs down. How about making things like a 500% profit illegal? Or making it so that if I spend the night in the ER and just get some water via IV that I don't spend $5,000? He just seems to hope that going to a unified system + subsidize everyone's health care will just bring costs down. I hate to say it but I'm getting more right leaning. Just look at the defense industry. A large industry paid for completely by the government that is bloated and not worth the money. Probably what this will turn into.[/QUOTE]
My brother lives in San Diego and makes a contract salary of $100,000 a year and is still paying off his car, student debt, and saving up at the same time for a down payment on a house just after having his first child.
Here where I live in NJ that would be a shitload of money, but unfortunately it isn't in California.
Personally I feel a single payer system should go through the states rather then federal government and the taxes paying for it should be tailored depending on the cost of living there and local income like you said.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;49554991]It's much easier (and more-attractive) to 'make the rich pay for it' rather than actually fixing structural problems.[/QUOTE]
that sounds... very depressing actually
Problem is over here with the NHS you get people going to hospitals with the most minor things like a fucking papercut and clogging up the system for everyone else, hence where all the "go to your GP" adverts and complaints about waiting times come from here.
[editline]a[/editline]
Before you raise the pitchforks I'm all for free healthcare btw, hell, the NHS even paid for my Grandad to go private since they couldn't give him his hip replacement quick enough.
[QUOTE=meharryp;49558062]Problem is over here with the NHS you get people going to hospitals with the most minor things like a fucking papercut and clogging up the system for everyone else, hence where all the "go to your GP" adverts and complaints about waiting times come from here.[/QUOTE]
Both my parents work in a hospital and I'm told all the time how drunk homeless people come in daily and complain of shit like alcohol poisoning just for free food and a warm bed. They don't end up paying anything anyways
My parents have pretty decent insurance, but they pay out the ass for it. My co-pay for regular GP visits is about 25 while specialists cost me about 35.
I'm worried about once I'm off their insurance though. I visit the doctor pretty much twice a month for various health problems and that shit's gonna add up, especially considering I have like five prescription medications, plus asthma medicine and an epi-pen that cost me $45 per pen as it is. Not to mention, a visit to my gastroenterologist cost me like $65 for a tiny 30 second lactose intolerance test and that's [I]with[/I] insurance. Can't imagine what it'd be without it.
I'd say I'm more well off than most at the moment but the second I'm off my parent's insurance, I have no clue what's gonna happen and I'm pretty terrified. I feel like it shouldn't be that way at all. The way healthcare works now, they're pretty much setting you up to fail from the get-go.
[QUOTE=polarbear.;49558047]that sounds... very depressing actually[/QUOTE]
The problem is that the rich don't pay their fair share. Its why government offices are understaffed and using ancient technology, etc.
The US government can't even adequately collect taxation.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;49557686]
Personally I feel a single payer system should go through the states rather then federal government and the taxes paying for it should be tailored depending on the cost of living there and local income like you said.[/QUOTE]
Agree on the second point, but not on the first. A Republican governor would block this in a heartbeat, in the unlikely event that Bernie Sanders does get elected, let alone push this agenda through a Republican controlled congress.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49554283]I'm courious where he's getting his numbers. A similar plan in congress was estimated to cost ~$15 trillion, but Sanders is saying that it will save $6 trillion. A $21 trillion difference is a pretty big deal.[/QUOTE]
Congress didn't negotiate or put in a supremacy clause relating to costs. They just went with figures from insurance massive medical industry companies.
AKA the people who would inflate costs just to get more money.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;49557686]Personally I feel a single payer system should go through the states rather then federal government and the taxes paying for it should be tailored depending on the cost of living there and local income like you said.[/QUOTE]
Vermont tried to do it, but had to scrap the plan because it broke the budget.
States simply don't have the budget, and they shouldn't have to put that in their budget.
[QUOTE=cody8295;49558078]Both my parents work in a hospital and I'm told all the time how drunk homeless people come in daily and complain of shit like alcohol poisoning just for free food and a warm bed. They don't end up paying anything anyways[/QUOTE]
All this says is that we need to do more to be helping homeless people, too. If you're concerned about them "stealing" beds from legitimately sick people just for food, warmth, and shelter, then why not do more to provide food, warmth, and shelter outside of hospitals?
[editline]18th January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;49558284]Vermont tried to do it, but had to scrap the plan because it broke the budget.[/QUOTE]
Trying to institute such a system on a state-by-state basis is doomed to fail. Without a nationwide single-payer system there's no strength from which to institute cost of service controls to providers and suppliers, and negotiating lowe costs is critical. On a business to business side, the cost for suplies and drugs in the US is at least three times higher than any other major nation, despite being exactly the sa me materials. Individual states don't have the power to effectively control prices, the nation as a whole does. It must be all or nothing.
[QUOTE=Mr._N;49558204]Agree on the second point, but not on the first. A Republican governor would block this in a heartbeat, in the unlikely event that Bernie Sanders does get elected, let alone push this agenda through a Republican controlled congress.[/QUOTE]
I think that if it did go through the states, it should be held through a state wide vote by the people should a state legislative fail to override a governor veto. Here in NJ, which is very liberal, would have no problem doing that with a state wide citizen vote. Colorado is doing that right now, sort of.
Either way you're going to have people in both the congress and state legislative bodies attempting to block it. But, hey, if the southern or very red states don't want it that's fine and we shouldn't force it on them, because they'll be seeing how it works from outside and then have doubts about their own methods. Perhaps states in certain regions could join together into some form of coalition and have a regional single payer system to help with funding?
[QUOTE=TheTalon;49556308]Except I had to pay for it out of pocket
If my injury isn't going to cost more than $1,000 to treat, I don't get treatment because I'll have to pay for it[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm not defending it I'm just saying that's why it's so expensive.
something ive learned from working in the health care field for almost 3 years; You're never going to pay for these insurance plans from a government perspective without changing health care costs. Its a culture thing deep rooted in our medical system that causes a lot of these issues, from poor standard of care procedures that waste thousands of dollars vs alternatives (this is so out of control in the surgical community its a joke), to medical equipment being poorly designed and marked up 8-10x at the consumer level, to just absolute waste.
[QUOTE=ScoutKing;49558737]something ive learned from working in the health care field for almost 3 years; You're never going to pay for these insurance plans from a government perspective without changing health care costs. Its a culture thing deep rooted in our medical system that causes a lot of these issues, from poor standard of care procedures that waste thousands of dollars vs alternatives (this is so out of control in the surgical community its a joke), to medical equipment being poorly designed and marked up 8-10x at the consumer level, to just absolute waste.[/QUOTE]
This is a good example of where we need federal interception of a free market: Medical manufacturers and healthcare service providers (talking about organizations, not individuals) need to be regulated and have their prices audited and standardized. It's funny to joke about but the fact of the matter is a paper cup isn't $20, and if we can't address that principal of bizarro-land pricing for simple services then we can't move forward with any serious healthcare reform either. Universal healthcare isn't going to work if the taxpayers are paying $20 for a paper cup. Once you get government money involved, you need to be sure the price is fair, otherwise we're just handing a blank check from the taxpayer to the medical industry and hoping and praying they won't completely fuck us (hint: they will, and are).
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.